Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

vienne86 wrote: »

Next week's performance in now huge. It's huge for Cullen, for Heaslip as a captain, and for all out experienced players who should have a full six days of having their backsides kicked. I know guys are trying to get used to playing together, but that does not excuse the weak tackles we saw today - Wasps were able to offload and run past us for fun. Not good enough.

If he is the captain.

Heroditas

CatFromHue wrote: »

It was a funny game as they only got in our 22 maybe 3 times and came back with 3 tries, though one of the tries was from outside the 22.

We seemed to play most of the game in their half but couldn't break them down, only a few half breaks and things like that.

What was worrying was the scrum as they were well on top in that and were where sloppy at times too with the ball.

If you looked at the stats alone you'd never guess we lost so bad, 60% poession, 67% territory and then all the other stats are pretty close bar the set piece.

The set piece is absolutely vital though. Lose the upper hand in that in the modern game and you have feck all chance of winning a match

ArmchairQB

sydthebeat wrote: »

Do you know who else was interviewed?

The people who didn't even want to be interviewed shows how the job was regarded by some of the top people available

thebaz

sydthebeat wrote: »

Do you know who else was interviewed?

no, but the Leinster top management are fairly astute, money shouldn't be a problem (don't be surprised if Dennis O'Brien helps bankroll , he has invested in other sports, and rugby is his passion .

It's not too long ago that everything seamed so rosy, with an ever ending Academy production line - but, it is worrying today , that so few of these academy products are turing into World class players, similar to Argentina now, or Leinster a few years ago - maybe some changes should be made at the Academy level , cause something is not right, in comparison to a few years ago . I would like to have seen the head job given to Conor O'Shea , Leo was a gamble, on a player thoroughly respected in the squad, but no real coaching track record , and also the cheaper option

vienne86

thebaz wrote: »

no, but the Leinster top management are fairly astute, money shouldn't be a problem (don't be surprised if Dennis O'Brien helps bankroll , he has invested in other sports, and rugby is his passion .

It's not too long ago that everything seamed so rosy, with an ever ending Academy production line - but, it is worrying today , that so few of these academy products are turing into World class players, similar to Argentina now, or Leinster a few years ago - maybe some changes should be made at the Academy level , cause something is not right, in comparison to a few years ago . I would like to have seen the head job given to Conor O'Shea , Leo was a gamble, on a player thoroughly respected in the squad, but no real coaching track record , and also the cheaper option

Could Conor O'Shea have wanted the job? I'd doubt it.

irishbucsfan

We've changed the structure now. It's a hugely positive change. The head coach role is less powerful than it was in the past with Easterby taking on the Director or Rugby position. That's something I'd called for on this thread seasons ago because there's a tendency in rugby fans to massively overestimate the importance of a head coach. Everyone has heard of Conor O'Shea but few have heard of John Kingston. Everyone knew about Richard Cockerill in 2012 but most Leinster fans weren't aware of Matt O'Connor. I'm just bringing that up because it's important to keep in mind that change has been made.

Why is that change important? Leo now should be held accountable purely as a technical head coach. Questions like "why we aren't developing world class players" should now be asked of Guy Easterby (I don't necessarily agree with that premise though). He's new to the coaching game but it's a focused position with a clearly defined path that I have total confidence he will be able to follow, particularly with assistance from the IRFU. I'm hoping the change will take the pressure off of him and allow him to settle into that role and work with the very talented people around him (including Isa) to get us back on track. It won't happen overnight though and we need to give it time. We could conceivably lose every game in Europe but what's more important is that the coaches are on the same page with the players and we gain a more consistent identity, we sort out our continuity plan in midfield and at half back, and we climb back to the top of the Pro 12 where we belong. Once we've built that platform we can go out giant-killing in Europe.

The Rape of Lucretia

thebaz wrote: »

I know its early days , may need to start looking at top coach, Leo was always a gamble , we need another Schmidt or Cheika , I think

No. Too early to consider that. Yes, Leinster made a terrible mistake in not being the prime movers in sacking MOC earlier last season and finding a suitable replacement. And ended up empty handed, and had nobody but Cullie to give it too. And yes, they made another mistake in giving him a contract rather than keeping him caretaker before the world cup - they didnt know what interesting coach might have been dumped onto the market after it.

But whats done is done not. He must be let run the season out. Hell, even I gave the MOCster a season and a half. Decision time next April according to our position in the league though.

thebaz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We've changed the structure now. It's a hugely positive change. The head coach role is less powerful than it was in the past with Easterby taking on the Director or Rugby position. That's something I'd called for on this thread seasons ago because there's a tendency in rugby fans to massively overestimate the importance of a head coach.

well its certainly not working right now - the Director/coaching role has never worked in soccer, so not sure why it would work in rugby - for me there can be only one coach/manager , get in a team of experts , but only one boss calling the shots directing/ picking and coaching the team

irishbucsfan

thebaz wrote: »

well its certainly not working right now - the Director/coaching role has never worked in soccer, so not sure why it would work in rugby - for me there can be only one coach/manager , get in a team of experts , but only one boss calling the shots directing/ picking and coaching the team

It's the model that's in place at most of the successful teams in Europe. I couldn't care less if it works in soccer, it works in rugby.

Stheno

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's the model that's in place at most of the successful teams in Europe. I couldn't care less if it works in soccer, it works in rugby.

And it needs time to bed in, instant results won't happen.

thebaz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's the model that's in place at most of the successful teams in Europe. I couldn't care less if it works in soccer, it works in rugby.

oh right . 2 bosses are always better than one - makes sense

irishbucsfan

thebaz wrote: »

oh right . 2 bosses are always better than one - makes sense

No, it's a seperation of responsibilities not a duplication. Take Harlequins as an example, your coach takes responsibility for the nuts and bolts, the day to day coaching of the players, and the DoR takes responsibility for the bigger picture stuff.

blackdog1

We have had terrible recruitment for the last number of years and now it's showing especially with the injuries. I'm worried about Strauss too many dings for my liking. I think we need 2 players in the pack to be back on top. I want a huge scrummaging hooker like adriann Strauss. We also need a aggressive 2nd row like Peter Steph du toit and we need a 12 like Bundi Aki.

phog

I only saw the highlights but that was a poor result for the team Leinster fielded. D K will have nightmares about that bounce and slip and did he knock on the missed long range penalty kick too?

In a pool of death losing a home game is all but the death knell. Leinster at their best might survive but three more injury worries today with a 6 day turnaround is really making the mountain higher.

I hope ye get the win next week at least it gives ye time to prep for the back to back games in December.

Felexicon

Was at the game today and it was very disappointing to say the least. Sexton looked off the pace all day.His restart straight in to touch and the kick to the corner he put dead really killed off any momentum Leinster were building after half time. But he was by no means alone in under performing. The scrum was terrible and line outs were a coin flip. Jamie Heaslip was as passive as a kitten for alot of the game. Lads need to take a good look at themselves over the next few days and realise that the badge on their chest isn't going to win them games.

Can't for the life of me understand why Ringrose was brought on so late. The game was dead so Cullen could have at least given him some experience by getting him a run out for 25 minutes or so. Thought he looked dangerous when he came on too.

The only time Kirchner should be given the 11 or 14 shirt again is when he's on the laundry run.

kennedmc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We've changed the structure now. It's a hugely positive change. The head coach role is less powerful than it was in the past with Easterby taking on the Director or Rugby position. That's something I'd called for on this thread seasons ago because there's a tendency in rugby fans to massively overestimate the importance of a head coach. Everyone has heard of Conor O'Shea but few have heard of John Kingston. Everyone knew about Richard Cockerill in 2012 but most Leinster fans weren't aware of Matt O'Connor. I'm just bringing that up because it's important to keep in mind that change has been made.

Why is that change important? Leo now should be held accountable purely as a technical head coach. Questions like "why we aren't developing world class players" should now be asked of Guy Easterby (I don't necessarily agree with that premise though). He's new to the coaching game but it's a focused position with a clearly defined path that I have total confidence he will be able to follow, particularly with assistance from the IRFU. I'm hoping the change will take the pressure off of him and allow him to settle into that role and work with the very talented people around him (including Isa) to get us back on track. It won't happen overnight though and we need to give it time. We could conceivably lose every game in Europe but what's more important is that the coaches are on the same page with the players and we gain a more consistent identity, we sort out our continuity plan in midfield and at half back, and we climb back to the top of the Pro 12 where we belong. Once we've built that platform we can go out giant-killing in Europe.

Sounds like aload of management speak nonsense above. Did they get in some consulting firm to do this? And if that is the case it sounds like we are trying to be too clever for our own good. You mentions Quins below? What have they achieved in Europe over the last 5/6 years?

Meanwhile Leinster have struggled along with our head coaches of the likes of Schmidt and Cheika in charge!!!

irishbucsfan

kennedmc wrote: »

Sounds like aload of management speak nonsense above. Did they get in some consulting firm to do this? And if that is the case it sounds like we are trying to be too clever for our own good. You mentions Quins below? What have they achieved in Europe over the last 5/6 years?

Meanwhile Leinster have struggled along with our head coaches of the likes of Schmidt and Cheika in charge!!!

I only mentioned Quins because people like to mention Conor O'Shea. Saracens brought in the same model with Venter/McCall (Venter has since left) and they've done pretty well with it, Northampton and Tigers as well I believe. Toulouse have just gone that way a well with Fabien Pelous.

.ak

phog wrote: »

I only saw the highlights but that was a poor result for the team Leinster fielded. D K will have nightmares about that bounce and slip and did he knock on the missed long range penalty kick too?

In a pool of death losing a home game is all but the death knell. Leinster at their best might survive but three more injury worries today with a 6 day turnaround is really making the mountain higher.

I hope ye get the win next week at least it gives ye time to prep for the back to back games in December.

I said it earlier in the thread but DK wasn't actually at fault for their first try. He positioned himself well, but as the ball came back down a freak gust took the ball and it sailed over his head. He wasn't going to catch it unless he was out of position by accident. He then got absolutely bamboozled by a fluke or a bounce.

He seemed to take the loss hard but he actually had a good game. Our best winger anyway.

No that was Conan who knocked it on iirc.

errlloyd

.ak wrote: »

I said it earlier in the thread but DK wasn't actually at fault for their first try. He positioned himself well, but as the ball came back down a freak gust took the ball and it sailed over his head. He wasn't going to catch it unless he was out of position by accident. He then got absolutely bamboozled by a fluke or a bounce.

He seemed to take the loss hard but he actually had a good game. Our best winger anyway.

No that was Conan who knocked it on iirc.

Dk knocked it on. Conan was the *player* who picked it up from offside.

thebaz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, it's a seperation of responsibilities not a duplication. Take Harlequins as an example, your coach takes responsibility for the nuts and bolts, the day to day coaching of the players, and the DoR takes responsibility for the bigger picture stuff.

oh if life was so clearcut - when something goes wrong you can always blame the other person - the All Blacks / Argentina have a clear leader at the helm , and thats what Leinster should copy , worked pretty good when Joe and Cheika were in charge - the director/coach ticket has been a disaster in soccer, which IS relevant to the management of professional rugby

errlloyd

thebaz wrote: »

oh if life was so clearcut - when something goes wrong you can always blame the other person - the All Blacks / Argentina have a clear leader at the helm , and thats what Leinster should copy , worked pretty good when Joe and Cheika were in charge - the director/coach ticket has been a disaster in soccer, which IS relevant to the management of professional rugby

That thing you said about the all blacks and Argentina is patently not true. Argentina have been hugely reliant on consultants and division of responsibility. The all blacks have had a nucifora type for years.

irishbucsfan

thebaz wrote: »

oh if life was so clearcut - when something goes wrong you can always blame the other person - the All Blacks / Argentina have a clear leader at the helm , and thats what Leinster should copy , worked pretty good when Joe and Cheika were in charge - the director/coach ticket has been a disaster in soccer, which IS relevant to the management of professional rugby

Neither All Blacks or Argentina are clubs so exist under very different circumstances. Their coaches don't deal with commercial issues whatsoever for example. Soccer is something I really couldn't care less about. We are late arrivals to this model when it comes to rugby and it's going to be a great benefit.

thebaz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Soccer is something I really couldn't care less about. We are late arrivals to this model when it comes to rugby and it's going to be a great benefit.

whether you like soccer or not, it has been professional for a lot longer , makes more money (too much ) - so it has relevance to what should work in rugby - all the best soccer managers like been the no1 , but all bring in teams of assistances to help - I think what leinster need now is one strong character to lead , not 2

thebaz

errlloyd wrote: »

That thing you said about the all blacks and Argentina is patently not true. Argentina have been hugely reliant on consultants and division of responsibility. The all blacks have had a nucifora type for years.

Really ?? it was obvious to me who was running both team - of course they will bring in helpers & assistants to assist to get things right

irishbucsfan

thebaz wrote: »

whether you like soccer or not, it has been professional for a lot longer , makes more money (too much ) - so it has relevance to what should work in rugby - all the best soccer managers like been the no1 , but all bring in teams of assistances to help - I think what leinster need now is one strong character to lead , not 2

Right, I don't really understand your problem with it. They're two people doing entirely different jobs within the team.

As was pointed out before the likes of Graham Henry had a huge influence over Argentina although that's not quite analogous to what Easterby is doing for us, which is just a further extension of his previous position.

EDIT: As for the soccer thing, it's not the only sport that makes a lot of money. The NFL makes a similarly ludicrous amount of money. Doesn't mean we should all be out hiring defensive and offensive co-ordinators and special teams coaches. What works for rugby works for rugby, what works for soccer works for soccer.

errlloyd

errlloyd wrote: »

Dk knocked it on. Conan was the *player* who picked it up from offside.

I was very confused by all that. What exactly happened? DK spilled it? Conan was ahead of DK?

ArmchairQB

Deleted User wrote: »

I was very confused by all that. What exactly happened? DK spilled it? Conan was ahead of DK?

DK attempted to catch a missed penalty attempt by Wasps in his dead ball area, knocked it on Conan shot forward gathered the ball and attempted to play which led to a penalty for Wasps

ArmchairQB

ArmchairQB wrote: »

DK attempted to catch a missed penalty attempt by Wasps in his dead ball area, knocked it on Conan shot forward gathered the ball and attempted to play which led to a penalty for Wasps

Was is that a penalty and not a scrum for the knock on? Because it was knocked on in the dead ball area?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Was is that a penalty and not a scrum for the knock on? Because it was knocked on in the dead ball area?

DK Knocked the ball on, resetting the offside line. (He wasn't in the dead ball area either)

Conan, who was ahead of DK, picked up the ball from this now offside position.

The knock on infringement was ignored due to playing advantage to Wasps, as obvious advantage occurred as a penalty was awarded instead.

sullivlo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Was is that a penalty and not a scrum for the knock on? Because it was knocked on in the dead ball area?

I thought it was that Conan was offside when he played the ball.