Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Clegg wrote: »

McGrath's cameo shows up the decision to start Boss today. Van Der Flier is playing like Jordi was when he first made his breakthrough. These two lads need a start, maybe the Toulan game is too much, but they're in better form then the more senior players. Only God knows what's happened to Murphy over the last few months. Sexton had another poor game in Europe and our set piece and ruck work look sub par. Fitzgerald is wasted at 12 and Te'o needs better ball to wreak havoc.

If the European season is a write off now I see no reason why the likes of McGrath, VDF and even Ringrose shouldn't get to start those games. They can't lose any worse than the senior players have.

Triumvirate

Tox56 wrote: »

To demonstrate your point you literally picked 4 players that are either currently injured (Conan), were injured last week (Te'o, Nacewa) or look like they're playing with a noticeable injury (Sexton).

I pointedly stated that said Conan was available until this week. Te'o was out for several months upon arrival last season and has missed one game as has Nacewa.

They've been available this season. I'm not basing everything on last week. They weren't around for the most part last season (or were having their first season in the 23 in Conan's case).

Clegg

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

If the European season is a write off now I see no reason why the likes of McGrath, VDF and even Ringrose shouldn't get to start those games. They can't lose any worse than the senior players have.

While I would agree with that thought, I think its a big ask for a rookie coach to go against his seasoned players. He needs something to fall back on. That's being said, some of our more experienced players are awful at the moment.

Triumvirate

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

They can't lose any worse than the senior players have.

Of course that can and probably would. They'll be playing the same tactics and in the same systems under the same coaching. They might bring an energy and hunger but Toulon would chew them up if we went with the kids en masse.

Regardless, the senior guys are the Irish team and the Irish team calls the shots. They'll play.

Hagz

Form has got to count for more now. Whatever little mistakes Luke McGrath may make, he's providing more tempo when he's on the field than Boss. Van der Flier is bringing a higher level of intensity than Dominic Ryan and truthfully Jordi Murphy. Reward form.

aimee1

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

If the European season is a write off now I see no reason why the likes of McGrath, VDF and even Ringrose shouldn't get to start those games. They can't lose any worse than the senior players have.

I think we need the 10-12-13 channel to play together to create some form of unit so I wouldnt make changes unless forced. I would start McGrath ahead of Boss or Reddan and have the other two on the bench.

The MOC comparisons are nonsense at this stage. Cullen is trying to take Leinster back to a style of a few years ago with players who arent quite as good as what JS or Cheika had so it will take time and will be a little bit like today.

The decision to go for the posts was crazy. It handed the only bit of momentum leinster had in the whole game back to Bath very cheaply, and the last lineout was down to players not concentrating, arguing bout the gap at the lineout.

Tox56

Triumvirate wrote: »

I pointedly stated that said Conan was available until this week. Te'o was out for several months upon arrival last season and has missed one game as has Nacewa.

They've been available this season. I'm not basing everything on last week. They weren't around for the most part last season (or were having their first season in the 23 in Conan's case).

But your assessment of Cullen is clearly based on the last two weeks, up to last week I think most would agree Cullen was doing a pretty decent job

Triumvirate

Tox56 wrote: »

But your assessment of Cullen is clearly based on the last two weeks, up to last week I think most would agree Cullen was doing a pretty decent job

No, you're making an assumption on what my assessment is based on. Given I'm referencing availability of players throughout the season, I'd have thought it's clear I'm discussing the overall season to date. The catalyst for the discussion was our essential elimination today but that should only form part of the discussion.

I would think he's done average prior to last week. Nothing special at all. The only side we've beaten on the road is Treviso. The home wins (Dragons aside) were not hugely impressive and hard fought affairs. Edinburgh deservedly beat us in Scotland. The Scarlets slaughtered us in Wales.

I don't think he has had a pretty decent few months at all. I would say his Pro12 showings have been acceptable, allowing for circumstances and his ECC showings have been badly shown up when asked to step to a higher level.

molloyjh

Triumvirate wrote: »

No, you're making an assumption on what my assessment is based on. Given I'm referencing availability of players throughout the season, I'd have thought it's clear I'm discussing the overall season to date. The catalyst for the discussion was our essential elimination today but that should only form part of the discussion.

I would think he's done average prior to last week. Nothing special at all. The only side we've beaten on the road is Treviso. The home wins (Dragons aside) were not hugely impressive and hard fought affairs. Edinburgh deservedly beat us in Scotland. The Scarlets slaughtered us in Wales.

I don't think he has had a pretty decent few months at all. I would say his Pro12 showings have been acceptable, allowing for circumstances and his ECC showings have been badly shown up when asked to step to a higher level.

Hang on, missing over 20 players to RWC and injury and winning 5 of 7 games while trying to implement a new game plan is just average? Really? Wow, I'd hate to have to live up to your standards....

Hagz

I don't like Fitzy at 12. He isn't bad there but it doesn't play to his strengths. I think Madigan is honestly our best option there currently, and I wouldn't mind seeing Te'o there. I know some on here have argued that it's difficult to make the switch but I disagree. If you can play 13 you can definitley play 12. In fact I think it was O'Driscoll who said it's not difficult to make the switch after Henshaw did so.

But yeh, I think Madigan is our best option there currently.

aimee1

Triumvirate wrote: »

No, you're making an assumption on what my assessment is based on. Given I'm referencing availability of players throughout the season, I'd have thought it's clear I'm discussing the overall season to date. The catalyst for the discussion was our essential elimination today but that should only form part of the discussion.

I would think he's done average prior to last week. Nothing special at all. The only side we've beaten on the road is Treviso. The home wins (Dragons aside) were not hugely impressive and hard fought affairs. Edinburgh deservedly beat us in Scotland. The Scarlets slaughtered us in Wales.

I don't think he has had a pretty decent few months at all. I would say his Pro12 showings have been acceptable, allowing for circumstances and his ECC showings have been badly shown up when asked to step to a higher level.

JS lost 3 from 4 when he first came to leinster but won the HEC because he had his squad together without RWC disruption. Now is definitely not the time to make judgements. Its far too early.

molloyjh

Hagz wrote: »

I don't like Fitzy at 12. He isn't bad there but it doesn't play to his strengths. I think Madigan is honestly our best option there currently, and I wouldn't mind seeing Te'o there. I know some on here have argued that it's difficult to make the switch but I disagree. If you can play 13 you can definitley play 12. In fact I think it was O'Driscoll who said it's not difficult to make the switch after Henshaw did so.

But yeh, I think Madigan is our best option there currently.

I'd like to see more of the 2 lads there before deciding. Luke did a lot of good work in tight situations. If/when things start to click a bit more we could see him coming into things more and more.

Hagz

Yeah that's fair.

aimee1

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd like to see more of the 2 lads there before deciding. Luke did a lot of good work in tight situations. If/when things start to click a bit more we could see him coming into things more and more.

Id like to see Sexton - Teo - Fitz

AbusesToilets

guess Leinster can concentrate on the Pro 12 this year and hope to improve seeding for next years CC.

ThisRegard

aimee1 wrote: »

The MOC comparisons are nonsense at this stage. Cullen is trying to take Leinster back to a style of a few years ago with players who arent quite as good as what JS or Cheika had so it will take time and will be a little bit like today..

In these games he needs a game plan to suit the players as they are now, not how he wants them to be a few years down the line.

aimee1

ThisRegard wrote: »

In these games he needs a game plan to suit the players as they are now, not how he wants them to be a few years down the line.

yes but he is trying to take them to a style more like JS then MOC. He has had the internationals back for about 3 weeks. Yet he is expected to have them humming already.

Way too early to be forming any judgements on Leo in my opinion. He has to be given time.

wise7

Maybe its because Luke Mc grath gets such little gametime that Gerry Thornely refers to him 4 times as John Cooney in his online ,match report from the REC.

Hagz

I sure hope he isn't trying to take them back to a JS style. That's not going to work with this squad.

ThisRegard

aimee1 wrote: »

yes but he is trying to take them to a style more like JS then MOC. He has had the internationals back for about 3 weeks. Yet he is expected to have them humming already.

Way too early to be forming any judgements on Leo in my opinion. He has to be given time.

His problem is that his appointment raised many eye brows so I don't think he'll be gifted the courtesy of time by many to show results given he has no track record of a coach to back himself .

irishbucsfan

Hagz wrote: »

I sure hope he isn't trying to take them back to a JS style. That's not going to work with this squad.

According to D'Arcy it's nothing like that. Nothing to worry about that there, I've seen no evidence of it myself.

former total

Hagz wrote: »

I don't like Fitzy at 12. He isn't bad there but it doesn't play to his strengths. I think Madigan is honestly our best option there currently, and I wouldn't mind seeing Te'o there. I know some on here have argued that it's difficult to make the switch but I disagree. If you can play 13 you can definitley play 12. In fact I think it was O'Driscoll who said it's not difficult to make the switch after Henshaw did so.

D'Arcy, who switched a lot more than BOD ever did, said the exact opposite, that they are very different roles and switching isn't that easy.

I'd leave te'o where he is simply because he's one of the few guys who are performing.

Hagz

former total wrote: »

D'Arcy, who switched a lot more than BOD ever did, said the exact opposite, that they are very different roles and switching isn't that easy

Certainly switching out is very difficult. The demands are different, particularly defensively. But switching in is a lot more manageable. Hence why you see a lot of 13's comfortably make the move inside, but not the other way round.

irishbucsfan

I think it'll largely depend on the team. England's midfielders were largely interchangeable in recent years for example.

errlloyd

Hagz wrote: »

I don't like Fitzy at 12. He isn't bad there but it doesn't play to his strengths. I think Madigan is honestly our best option there currently, and I wouldn't mind seeing Te'o there. I know some on here have argued that it's difficult to make the switch but I disagree. If you can play 13 you can definitley play 12. In fact I think it was O'Driscoll who said it's not difficult to make the switch after Henshaw did so.

But yeh, I think Madigan is our best option there currently.

Also, it's not like Luke Fitz is an out an out 12, he could go back to the wing or move to 13.

Triumvirate

molloyjh wrote: »

Hang on, missing over 20 players to RWC and injury and winning 5 of 7 games while trying to implement a new game plan is just average? Really? Wow, I'd hate to have to live up to your standards....

It was average. Not awful, not great. I don't think that's exactly an outlandish comment?

The 20 players being gone is a bit of a red herring given the quality of the guys that remained. Firstly, we had 19 players at the RWC. 3 of those were called up in the final 10 days and were with Leinster up until then.

The players that did remain were still of a very good quality (multiple internationals alongside Nacewa, Te'o) that were more than capable of winning against the teams they played. If you go through each of our games and look at the actual players that featured, we did not have weak sides on the park. Given the players that the sides had on the field, a loss to the likes of Cardiff or Glasgow shorn of their internationals at home would have been a poor result. Instead we beat them both after getting ahead in the final stages. So I would say it clearly wasn't a bad result but I don't think I'd consider them particularly impressive either.

It's worth noting that the Scarlets are the only team in the top 5 that we've faced, also, and they were pushing for a win in the RDS when the game ended a couple of weeks ago having beaten us comprehensively in Wales.

I'm not being overly critical, just taking it at face value. Now that players have returned, we look completely lost. Ireland left the RWC a month ago. If we were giving it our best crack and losing that would be fair enough but the past week has had senior players ambling around the field, lacking intensity with our set piece (where Cullen should be excelling) in complete disarray. The final line out today was very much a sign of a lack of clarity and confidence within the pack which is a real worry.

It's not time for panicking but it certainly is time to ask questions. There were big worries when Cullen was given the job and they haven't gone away. What would people have taken at the start of the season?

I'd have been happy for 3 wins in the ECC with a couple of bonus points along with playoffs in the league and blooding of players in key positions. The last area is one that I think Cullen will succeed in. However, I'm not convinced on it yet now that the pressure is really on. He's a conservative type by nature and that showed with Boss playing 67 minutes today and only coming off when we went 16-9 down.

I think the 3 wins simply isn't going to happen at this point. The focus has to be on the league from here on but it's going to be difficult to motivate the team. Fortunately, they have an equally dejected Ulster coming to town next week who looked worse last night than Leinster did today. It's an absolute must win for Cullen in terms of keeping the faith of the fans and the league campaign on track.

aimee1

Triumvirate wrote: »

What would people have taken at the start of the season?

Pro 12 playoff and depending on final position the final.

Europe doesnt bother me too much because of the group and having 17 players away until late october. This season will be a reality check for leinster.

Triumvirate

aimee1 wrote: »

Pro 12 playoff and depending on final position the final.

Europe doesnt bother me too much because of the group and having 17 players away until late october. This season will be a reality check for leinster.

I hope it will be in some ways because we simply aren't up to the standards that some expect. We don't have the players or finances to be a ECC knock out level team any longer. We'll need to rebuild and take the time to do so.

I think the playoffs should be very achievable but I also think that the Pro12 is currently at a low ebb, potentially the weakest it has been since its inception (only 2 wins for Pro12 sides thus far).

hogandrew

aimee1 wrote: »

Pro 12 playoff and depending on final position the final.

Europe doesnt bother me too much because of the group and having 17 players away until late october. This season will be a reality check for leinster.

I'd be at least expecting a final if out of Europe.

On a different note, looking at the compromised rules, are the provinces missing a trick not poaching gaa players? I know cheika offered Brendan Murphy a contract while in charge but surely there are 1-2 minor/u 16 footballers each year with enough interest and potential to give it a try each year. Adam Byrne didn't start until under 16 from what I know and wasn't it college before jannick jauzion started playing rugby?

aimee1

hogandrew wrote: »

I'd be at least expecting a final if out of Europe.

On a different note, looking at the compromised rules, are the provinces missing a trick not poaching gaa players? I know cheika offered Brendan Murphy a contract while in charge but surely there are 1-2 minor/u 16 footballers each year with enough interest and potential to give it a try each year. Adam Byrne didn't start until under 16 from what I know and wasn't it college before jannick jauzion started playing rugby?

aiden o'shea is a big guy, he would have done well in rugby, was thinking that myself watching it