Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

jm08

former total wrote: »

I know I posted this in a jokey way earlier, but it really is a horrendous slight on a player's character to be suggesting that his form went to pieces just because he was dropped by the national coach, that he doesn't have the mental resolve to take a hit like that.

It's really not very nice to be making these sort of nasty statements with absolutely no supporting evidence. And all for the sake of trying to win an argument with anonymous internet posters.

Check my post. I said factually that his form went to pot after he was dropped after the Italy game in the 6Ns.

I'm not the one criticising him for being weak minded and shouldn't be playing the game because of it. My point is that even the great Brian O'Driscoll & Dan Carter have had problems with confidence and its no different than maybe Best getting the yips with his throwing on the Lions.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

Actually, all I posted was that his form went to pot after he was dropped in the 6Ns. A few here bizarely started defending Joe Schmidt for dropping him.

The only nastiness I see is the claim that if a player has to work hard on his confidence, its some sort of a slur on his character. Even the great Dan Carter said he nearly retired before the world cup because he was being told constantly in the media that he was past it (and being played out of position).

You implied his form went to pot because of being 'dropped' when there is nothing to suggest that is the reason why his form dropped off

IK wasnt dropped. He was never in line to be selected v france once sexton came back

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

You implied his form went to pot because of being 'dropped' when there is nothing to suggest that is the reason why his form dropped off

IK wasnt dropped. He was never in line to be selected v france once sexton came back

So tell me, why do you think his form dropped off. He played well in the 6Ns game?

By the way, you should not think of lacking confidence as some sort of mental illness. Its a normal kind of think that everyone has to deal with. Its just a bit more difficult for an outhalf who can't hide.

molloyjh

jm08 wrote: »

Keatley is a confidence player. Munster management have identified that. If you want to get the best out of what you have, you bear that in mind. Schmidt is in the lucky position of being able to discard players at will. But that might come back and bite him at some stage, if for injuries Schmidt needs to use Keatley again.

If any coach ever have to think like that and baby sit players in that way then the player simply isn't worth it. The guys an adult FFS, not a child.

former total

jm08 wrote: »

Check my post. I said factually that his form went to pot after he was dropped after the Italy game in the 6Ns.

You made up a crazy theory to win a pointless argument, the least you can do is stand over what you said. See below.

jm08 wrote: »

These lads are not machines. I would have liked if Schmidt didn't drop TOD or Keatley the way he did because it affected their form for Munster

Good luck.

molloyjh

jm08 wrote: »

So tell me, why do you think his form dropped off. He played well in the 6Ns game?

By the way, you should not think of lacking confidence as some sort of mental illness. Its a normal kind of think that everyone has to deal with. Its just a bit more difficult for an outhalf who can't hide.

Listen either say that you believe that his form went to pot because he was dropped or say you don't. This ridiculous hopping from one side of the fence to the other that you're playing at is just pathetic. You're not right if you're opinion changes by the post. You're just being daft. If you won't actually say anything definitive then don't say anything at all and stop wasting everyones time.

Redgirl82

jm08 wrote: »

So tell me, why do you think his form dropped off. He played well in the 6Ns game?

By the way, you should not think of lacking confidence as some sort of mental illness. Its a normal kind of think that everyone has to deal with. Its just a bit more difficult for an outhalf who can't hide.

If you put as much energy into supporting Munster as you do about complaining about Ireland/Joe etc you might actually help build Keatleys confidence

Seems to be a lot of passion when arguing on boards but whenever I see a Munster game you could hear a pin drop

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

So tell me, why do you think his form dropped off. He played well in the 6Ns game?

By the way, you should not think of lacking confidence as some sort of mental illness. Its a normal kind of think that everyone has to deal with. Its just a bit more difficult for an outhalf who can't hide.

Because he is a player who is hit and miss and lacks consistancy. Its why he didn't make the RWC squad i reckon. He had a decent game against italy after a shaky few early kicks from hand but the bottom line is he has not delivered consistantly enough to warrant continued selection.

Madigan offers more in certain aspects not least as a cover option on the bench and has delivered in vital games for JS in several positions for club and country.

Dunno where your going with the last paragraph there tbh. Plenty of sports men and women use a guy like McNulty to find an extra 1-5-10% performance and its not all about confidence. Its about form or in a kickers case about controlling the moment when taking a shot at goal. Its also about how to relax etc away from the sport.

Greyian

jm08 wrote: »

So tell me, why do you think his form dropped off. He played well in the 6Ns game?

I would disagree. He played decently. He mixed the good with the bad (particularly in the first 15 minutes). He never had a chance at starting a game at 10 once Sexton returned (no-one else does either), and he was never a good bench option (which surely even he must know). He was always likely to be back at Munster after the Italy match.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

So tell me, why do you think his form dropped off. He played well in the 6Ns game?

By the way, you should not think of lacking confidence as some sort of mental illness. Its a normal kind of think that everyone has to deal with. Its just a bit more difficult for an outhalf who can't hide.

Keatley's form has been fluctuating for his entire Rugby career. Can you explain all those other time his form dropped?

Zzippy

Enough about Ian Keatley, Joe Schmidt and sports psychologists folks, it's getting bitchy. This is the Leinster thread.

swiwi_

Clegg wrote: »

That article says Leinster have narrowed their focus to New Zealand in the search for a new scrum half. Also says the plan is to find an uncapped 9 with the view to naturalising him. Doesn't seem to good for McGrath.

This is purely a philosophical Q, but do any people feel a little uncomfortable that despite 4 provinces, each with its own academy, the solution to Leinster's SH issue is apparently to look through the lower echelons of NZ's SH pool (given the higher echelons are ineligible by dint of having already worn black)?

By all means, Leinster needs to look after itself, so if they need a SH and they can't find one locally they can look internationally, but the phrase about choosing one to naturalise seems to suggest it's an IRFU policy/strategy. Basically the next Isaac Boss (although he was granny rule from memory). Does the end justify the means? Do Irish people really want their Irish team made up of naturalised foreigners? Is that really still an Irish team? Do you prefer to have an Irish team or a NZ expats XV?

If Leinster want to fork out megabucks, and a TJ Perenara or such wants to take them fine, but is choosing a middle-of-the-road SXV SH or maybe even an ITM cup player and offering him a contract that leads to his potentially representing Ireland, really deep down what people want representing Leinster & Ireland?

Maybe, yes, I don't know, I'm simply asking.

I want John Cooney back.

Zzippy

Deleted User wrote: »

I want John Cooney back.

I don't want you to get him, but I'd say he will be back next season. Has looked very good the last 12 months anytime he plays.

Podge_irl

swiwi_ wrote: »

By all means, Leinster needs to look after itself, so if they need a SH and they can't find one locally they can look internationally, but the phrase about choosing one to naturalise seems to suggest it's an IRFU policy/strategy.

It's definitely IRFU policy and I absolutely hate it.

FrannoFan

swiwi_ wrote: »

This is purely a philosophical Q, but do any people feel a little uncomfortable that despite 4 provinces, each with its own academy, the solution to Leinster's SH issue is apparently to look through the lower echelons of NZ's SH pool (given the higher echelons are ineligible by dint of having already worn black)?

By all means, Leinster needs to look after itself, so if they need a SH and they can't find one locally they can look internationally, but the phrase about choosing one to naturalise seems to suggest it's an IRFU policy/strategy. Basically the next Isaac Boss (although he was granny rule from memory). Does the end justify the means? Do Irish people really want their Irish team made up of naturalised foreigners? Is that really still an Irish team? Do you prefer to have an Irish team or a NZ expats XV?

If Leinster want to fork out megabucks, and a TJ Perenara or such wants to take them fine, but is choosing a middle-of-the-road SXV SH or maybe even an ITM cup player and offering him a contract that leads to his potentially representing Ireland, really deep down what people want representing Leinster & Ireland?

Maybe, yes, I don't know, I'm simply asking.

9 is an incredibly specific skill set. The other problem is to produce one you sort of have to suffer through for a period of time. murray took a host of games to become a top level 9. It doesn't sit well with the current coaching set up to endure this. Leo has gone for tried and tested where he can by and large with team selection.
The decision to play the woeful Boss and Reddan over McGrath is the very reason we can not produce a 9 locally.
Mcgrath will make mistakes but you sort of just have to hope it doesn't cost you too many games.

CatFromHue

It's prob a bit of a carrot for the player they're looking at too. Go to France/Eng for the money or go to Ireland and maybe have a chance to play International rugby.

Redgirl82

In regards to the comment about Leinster going to NZ for a player....it reminds me of something that was mentioned to me about the MOC era

One of the issues Leinster seemingly had with him was that he was not getting the younger players into the team, this was put down to him been used to the Leicester way which was always play your top 15 and if you need new players you just buy them in.....not risk a match by blooding players

It was suggested that part of Cullen interview and part of the reason he was picked was he said he had the ability to get the younger players integrated into the team quickly.

I think some of the problems at Leinster is none of the younger players have been allowed to come through to the first team so now they are in a situation where Boss/Redden are nearly finished and there is no-one with any experience to take there position. So I can see them going to NZ and getting a player on a 2 year contract, great if he can be project player but if not then 2 years. Give McGrath those 2 years to get the experience and become the starter....

Also if project player they could look after 2 years at keeping on NZ player or at that stage they will have either brought in academy player or got maybe someone like Hart from Grenoble....

CMOTDibbler

swiwi_ wrote: »

This is purely a philosophical Q, but do any people feel a little uncomfortable that despite 4 provinces, each with its own academy, the solution to Leinster's SH issue is apparently to look through the lower echelons of NZ's SH pool (given the higher echelons are ineligible by dint of having already worn black)?

By all means, Leinster needs to look after itself, so if they need a SH and they can't find one locally they can look internationally, but the phrase about choosing one to naturalise seems to suggest it's an IRFU policy/strategy. Basically the next Isaac Boss (although he was granny rule from memory). Does the end justify the means? Do Irish people really want their Irish team made up of naturalised foreigners? Is that really still an Irish team? Do you prefer to have an Irish team or a NZ expats XV?

If Leinster want to fork out megabucks, and a TJ Perenara or such wants to take them fine, but is choosing a middle-of-the-road SXV SH or maybe even an ITM cup player and offering him a contract that leads to his potentially representing Ireland, really deep down what people want representing Leinster & Ireland?

Maybe, yes, I don't know, I'm simply asking.

Compared to New Zealand, we have a pitifully small professional playing population. As a result we still find the cupboard bare in some positions and really struggle to fill them. There's a debate on another thread about possible successors to Jonny Sexton and it's a bit depressing to see how few possibilities there really are. We've known for years that we were going to have a problem when D'Arcy and BOD retired and here we now are with a Kiwi playing centre for Ireland. Boss is as you say a granny rule player, but he's been in or around the Irish team for many years now and at 35 was still needed at the RWC.

Leinster would probably have the best player resources, but still have to use project players and imports to stop gaps that appear from time to time.

molloyjh

swiwi_ wrote: »

This is purely a philosophical Q, but do any people feel a little uncomfortable that despite 4 provinces, each with its own academy, the solution to Leinster's SH issue is apparently to look through the lower echelons of NZ's SH pool (given the higher echelons are ineligible by dint of having already worn black)?

By all means, Leinster needs to look after itself, so if they need a SH and they can't find one locally they can look internationally, but the phrase about choosing one to naturalise seems to suggest it's an IRFU policy/strategy. Basically the next Isaac Boss (although he was granny rule from memory). Does the end justify the means? Do Irish people really want their Irish team made up of naturalised foreigners? Is that really still an Irish team? Do you prefer to have an Irish team or a NZ expats XV?

If Leinster want to fork out megabucks, and a TJ Perenara or such wants to take them fine, but is choosing a middle-of-the-road SXV SH or maybe even an ITM cup player and offering him a contract that leads to his potentially representing Ireland, really deep down what people want representing Leinster & Ireland?

Maybe, yes, I don't know, I'm simply asking.

That's a tough one to answer off the back of the rumours we're hearing. Take Andrew Goodman for example. I'd be more than happy with a scrum half equivalent. A guy who isn't going to be first choice, but who will provide good cover. However I would not be happy with a CJ Stander equivalent. I want the local lads given the opportunity where possible. And in this case I think McGrath should be viewed as the first choice 9 as it stands right now, never mind next season.

That said we will very possibly be losing both Boss and Reddan next season. We might get Cooney back, which would be great, but we might not. Assuming we don't we need a short term signing (1-2 seasons) to cover McGrath (from the bench, injury, possible Ireland call up). After that Nick McCarthy will hopefully be stepping up to the plate and we'll have 2 Leinster options. But even if Cooney does come back we could still use cover.

You have to remember as well that scrum half is one of those positions we really struggle to develop talent in for whatever reason. So we don't have the depth across the country to be able to move guys around. We need to go abroad to find a few guys who can bolster the ranks. As I said, once they aren't blocking Irish lads coming through I'm happy. If they are then I'm not.

stephen_n

Redgirl82 wrote: »

No money is not everything......

I think Madigan would rather to play in dry weather so he has better chance in France

Bordeaux as a city would have a little bit more appeal than Bristol....

I think being offered 500k as opposed to say 350k would be a far bigger factor than the weather. If he leaves Ireland I'd assume it will be to the highest bidder.

Zzippy wrote: »

Well it seems they're getting Henshaw so they can't complain. Would say it's more a case of recognising there's a bottleneck of talent at one province and trying to ensure they get more gametime to develop. Exactly what Nucifora was brought in to do.

If there's a bottle neck Ulster should be shedding backs and gaining forwards.

Redgirl82

stephen_n wrote: »

I think being offered 500k as opposed to say 350k would be a far bigger factor than the weather. If he leaves Ireland I'd assume it will be to the highest bidder.

I did notice that everyone had quoted the number to Euro in regards to the offer from Bristol because it gets more Wow factor. This is the press.

It looks so high because of how terrible the euro is compared to the pound. In reality the offer from Bristol is £350k

So you then need to take into consideration cost of living. You are not paying in Euro when living in the UK so really are you making that much more money? The cost of items in UK is a lot more expensive than in France so you might end up making more money in France

If the Euro finally comes back against the pound then the gap between France and UK is a lot closer.

When you actually break it down Madigan could go to France, play in nice weather and come out with more money in long run.....

Of course Madigan could sign for Bristol and live in Dublin and then he would be sorted, the commute would be a f**ker

Winters

To answer Swiwi's questions, yes I would much prefer we take players from the Irish system first and no I do not want a provincial or Leinster team made up of naturalised foreigners. Recruitment rather than development is always the easier option as it is perceived as the quick win but long term it is not the answer.


I dont understand this idea that Leinster need to sign a foreign number 9. Give any decent young player a good run of games and they will improve. McGrath should be our starting 9 by now but through a number of reasons he hasnt the number of provincial games under his belt that he should have. With McGrath, Cooney and Nick McCarthy we have a very healthy conveyor belt of scrum halves. They just need game time.

The meritocracy forced on the league and European cup have certainly made a larger number of games more meaningful but it has also reduced the chances for player development in elite games. Fast Eddie made some very meaningful comments on radio recently about the Super Rugby season whereby it's structure allowed for far more development of players than the NH tournaments. No relegation, reduced meritocracy etc.

JPNelsforearm

Could we not sell Sexton and keep Teo and Madser. Sexton isnt going to get less injury prone as he ages...

CMOTDibbler

Winters wrote: »

The meritocracy forced on the league and European cup have certainly made a larger number of games more meaningful but it has also reduced the chances for player development in elite games. Fast Eddie made some very meaningful comments on radio recently about the Super Rugby season whereby it's structure allowed for far more development of players than the NH tournaments. No relegation, reduced meritocracy etc.

This was the whole point of the European Cup qualifying format, especially for the likes of Italy and Scotland. Take the pressure off the clubs so that they can develop the sport and their own playing populations to be self sufficient.

Now the focus has shifted and it's about buying in players to cover short term deficits which become long term deficits and a downward spiral.

molloyjh

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Could we not sell Sexton and keep Teo and Madser. Sexton isnt going to get less injury prone as he ages...

You're joking, right!? You must surely be joking? Getting rid of Sexton is a bad enough idea. Replacing him with Madigan is just the icing on the cake.

No, a millions times over no. I want Te'o to stay, but not at that cost.

JPNelsforearm

molloyjh wrote: »

You're joking, right!? You must surely be joking? Getting rid of Sexton is a bad enough idea. Replacing him with Madigan is just the icing on the cake.

No, a millions times over no. I want Te'o to stay, but not at that cost.

we are paying Sexton about the same as it would cost to keep both of them, our squad will be threadbare next season, and when Sexton goes down, we'll be goosed at outhalf. Madigan Henshaw, Teo will win you a HC

LostArt

No team with Madigan as the starting 10 will win the HC.

molloyjh

I'll just leave this here.... :cool:

http://www.the42.ie/ben-teo-moving-leinster-transfer-union-2489485-Dec2015/

CMOTDibbler

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

we are paying Sexton about the same as it would cost to keep both of them, our squad will be threadbare next season, and when Sexton goes down, we'll be goosed at outhalf. Madigan Henshaw, Teo will win you a HC

I'm not following your logic. The majority of Sexton's salary is covered by the IRFU. Replacing him with someone else doesn't release that money for project players or NIQs.

Never mind the lunacy of getting rid of one of the best out halves in world rugby. Sexton's had a few knocks this year, but he's no worse than PO'C is at the moment or back a couple of years ago when he had the groin injury that wouldn't heal.