Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

WarZ

WarZ wrote: »

ah the old chest nut "you obviously dont have a clue", us knowledgeable fans know better :rolleyes:. There is a no criticism of Leinster rule in force here and a number of influential posters bully anyone who tries to criticize the team

YOU TAKE THAT BACK

Zzippy

WarZ wrote: »

ah the old chest nut "you obviously dont have a clue", us knowledgeable fans know better :rolleyes:. There is a no criticism of Leinster rule in force here and a number of influential posters bully anyone who tries to criticize the team

A warning has been issued on thread. If you have a problem with a post, report it. Responding in this fashion is not acceptable. Seriously everyone, if people keep posting to antagonise each other there are going to be a lot of infractions handed out. Post in a more constructive manner, all of you.

molloyjh

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

All that research and not a single quote.

EDIT: Mod note seen (and read). Nothing to see here.

penybont exile

Stheno wrote: »

Look, an Ireland backline of Murray, Sexton on form, Henshaw at 15 and then the likes of Teo/Aki/Ringrose at 13 with multiple options at 11 and 14 are a dream.

Just a couple of years away is all

As a Leinster fan, I'm happy to get to know the players, one of the nicest things for me the past few months is getting into the Pro 12 and CCup and getting to see players across the provinces.

Not sure about this fixation with Teo ...... Looks very average to me - not international standard.

I wouldn't be too sure about Aki either ......

molloyjh

Zzippy wrote: »

A warning has been issued on thread. If you have a problem with a post, report it. Responding in this fashion is not acceptable. Seriously everyone, if people keep posting to antagonise each other there are going to be a lot of infractions handed out. Post in a more constructive manner, all of you.

Fair point re the constructive manner. So on that basis...

There are issues at Leinster this season. I was highly critical of Leo's appointment during the summer. However it seems from everything we've heard that the candidates simply weren't at the required level. That can come as no surprise given the short lead in time they gave themselves. I had been saying all along that the decision to keep or fire MOC needed to be made around Christmas to ensure there was enough time to find a replacement. Leaving that decision to the end of the season was a massive mistake.

That said we are where we are now. There's nothing can be done about that now. We can't go back in time and fire MOC earlier. The next mistake made was the decision not to replace Richie Murphy. This was a must in my book. We know Leinster are currently looking to recruit a forward coach so maybe they are looking for a skills coach as well. Let's hope so. That could make a big difference to how we are playing right now.

We saw a Leinster side looking to use the ball a lot more though into the early part of the season. I was somewhat critical of the fact they were maybe overplaying it a bit when at times kicking maybe made more sense. But the more positive attacking approach was still a welcome sight. Some of the young lads looked to be making the step up well. And there were reasons to be positive about where we were headed.

Since the internationals have come back there have definitely been more issues. Exactly why isn't down to any 1 or 2 things. A new set up with no pre-season hasn't helped. Injuries and a long run of games (16 in a row with no break and some of our toughest games in there) meant that rotation and selection became a very tricky job. We've started 6 different centre partnerships for example. We've aging scrum halves and a fairly limited stock of wingers in many respects (assuming we look at Luke as a 12 now).

But we're also doing things that we weren't last season. Creating space in the wider channels is something we've done pretty successfully in our last 2 games. We've struggled to make them count due to inaccuracies. But a skills coach should help a bit there. Sextons form is a worry and I've been saying he needs time off to get his head right. I don't know what's wrong, but he is making good decisions without following through on them properly. If he can get over that we'd see a marked improvement in how we're going.

There are issues and there have been mistakes. But there have also been positives too. And to say it's all negative is as ridiculous as saying that nothing is wrong. I can see a way forward from where we are. I couldn't see that this time last year.

leftleg

molloyjh wrote: »

Fair point re the constructive manner. So on that basis...

There are issues at Leinster this season. I was highly critical of Leo's appointment during the summer. However it seems from everything we've heard that the candidates simply weren't at the required level. That can come as no surprise given the short lead in time they gave themselves. I had been saying all along that the decision to keep or fire MOC needed to be made around Christmas to ensure there was enough time to find a replacement. Leaving that decision to the end of the season was a massive mistake.

That said we are where we are now. There's nothing can be done about that now. We can't go back in time and fire MOC earlier. The next mistake made was the decision not to replace Richie Murphy. This was a must in my book. We know Leinster are currently looking to recruit a forward coach so maybe they are looking for a skills coach as well. Let's hope so. That could make a big difference to how we are playing right now.

We saw a Leinster side looking to use the ball a lot more though into the early part of the season. I was somewhat critical of the fact they were maybe overplaying it a bit when at times kicking maybe made more sense. But the more positive attacking approach was still a welcome sight. Some of the young lads looked to be making the step up well. And there were reasons to be positive about where we were headed.

Since the internationals have come back there have definitely been more issues. Exactly why isn't down to any 1 or 2 things. A new set up with no pre-season hasn't helped. Injuries and a long run of games (16 in a row with no break and some of our toughest games in there) meant that rotation and selection became a very tricky job. We've started 6 different centre partnerships for example. We've aging scrum halves and a fairly limited stock of wingers in many respects (assuming we look at Luke as a 12 now).

But we're also doing things that we weren't last season. Creating space in the wider channels is something we've done pretty successfully in our last 2 games. We've struggled to make them count due to inaccuracies. But a skills coach should help a bit there. Sextons form is a worry and I've been saying he needs time off to get his head right. I don't know what's wrong, but he is making good decisions without following through on them properly. If he can get over that we'd see a marked improvement in how we're going.

There are issues and there have been mistakes. But there have also been positives too. And to say it's all negative is as ridiculous as saying that nothing is wrong. I can see a way forward from where we are. I couldn't see that this time last year.

Your obviously one of those influential poster bullies around here

former total

What wrecks my head about this discussion of late is that, prior to the Wasps game, we were all unanimous that Cullen was doing a pretty good job under very difficult circumstances.

Then he essentially got a brand new squad and was asked to turn them into European contenders in the space of a week or two.

And then people are b*tching because things didn't go swimmingly? Is that a reasonable position?

Performances are on an upward curve. Wasps was a disaster, Bath was better, Toulon better again. I hope we'll see more improvement again this week.

vienne86

former total wrote: »

What wrecks my head about this discussion of late is that, prior to the Wasps game, we were all unanimous that Cullen was doing a pretty good job under very difficult circumstances.

Then he essentially got a brand new squad and was asked to turn them into European contenders in the space of a week or two.

And then people are b*tching because things didn't go swimmingly? Is that a reasonable position?

Performances are on an upward curve. Wasps was a disaster, Bath was better, Toulon better again. I hope we'll see more improvement again this week.

I would second that - the Wasps performance was truly awful, but it was just one match. Up to that, I was very pleased with the way things were developing in Leinster, and since then I have been happy with the progress. I like the way we have been playing, but the execution needs to be improved drastically.. But that should come .....it is work in progress.....and I am very hopeful. I have written off our European campaign, but these are very valuable matches for development.

Last year we reached the semis in Europe, thanks largely to a great seeding, lucky pool draw and very lucky QF draw. But this year, I am enjoying watching Leinster a lot more. I think we are getting better and things look positive. I didn't feel that last season, and I did not particularly enjoy watching my team at times.

We have had some mighty years supporting Leinster, but it couldn't last for ever. Every team goes through these phases IMO.

CMOTDibbler

former total wrote: »

What wrecks my head about this discussion of late is that, prior to the Wasps game, we were all unanimous that Cullen was doing a pretty good job under very difficult circumstances.

Then he essentially got a brand new squad and was asked to turn them into European contenders in the space of a week or two.

And then people are b*tching because things didn't go swimmingly? Is that a reasonable position?

Performances are on an upward curve. Wasps was a disaster, Bath was better, Toulon better again. I hope we'll see more improvement again this week.

To be fair, it's only a few posters throwing the toys out of the pram because it's not instant success that are missing the bigger picture.

There are issues on the pitch, but not ones that time can't fix. Accuracy bedevilled Leinster over the last couple of seasons under MOC. That should be the first fix.

Sexton's form is another. I suspect that he's struggling to impose himself again seeing as Racing were not receptive to the kind of player he was at Leinster prior to joining them. He just needs to relax into his game and let it flow again.

ArmchairQB

if you look back at long time posters nothing has really changed. A lot of people said that Leo and his coaching team were to inexperienced for such a big task and that with the year that was in it this year World Cup etc it was time for experienced heads or a mix of both new, fresh and experience. That didn't happen and we are where we are.

It is an internet forum so to be surprised when a few lunatics and trolls come on board is not realistic. Posters who waffle on but have very little or no rugby experience is also quiet common and apparent. It is an internet forum and this is to be expected. To class everyone that has a gripe as a whinger is wrong, to debate pedantic points is annoying to say we are playing better each week is untrue. We are currently in positions in our group and in our League that tell you exactly where we are at hopefully we improve as the season goes on. Will we improve on last season? I think not but hope we do!

So to take a bit of a stab at the team for this weekend. I'm going with below but note I am leaving out Sean O'Brien and I'm actually really worried about Strauss now to be honest after yet another concussion blow at the weekend.

Jack McGrath
Sean Cronin
Marty Moore
Devon knows it's Toner
Mike McCarthy
Rhys Ruddock
Josh Van der Flier
Jamie Heaslip
Eoin Reddan
Johnny Sexton
Dave Kearney
Luke Fitzgerald
Ben Ten
Isa Nacewa
Rob Kearney

Cian Knealy (presume he hasn't been cited?)
TBC
Mike Ross
Tom Denton
Jordi Murphy
Isaac Boss
Ian Munstergan
Fergus McFaddan

We may see Ringrose come in somewhere, perhaps Isa (who looked a little off the pace last week) may fall to either the bench or out of the 23 and Ringrose may come onto the wing or come in to replace Ferg on the bench. I'm not sure if we'll see Furlong come in instead of either Ross or Moore but he may do at the expense of Ross imo.

I don't see any change to the backrow, but if SOB was available I'd up our chances of winning somewhat as I maintain that a fit and firing SOB and a more tidy game from Sexton would have seen Toulon crumble last week.

This will be both my kids first trip to the Aviva so pretty excited to be honest.

former total

Can't imagine O'Brien would be available, JVDF deserves to keep the jersey ahead of Murphy.

Nacewa was very quiet on Sunday, I would consider dropping him for DK who looked sharp when he came on. Can't see it happening though.

Boss has to start, surely? He was solid enough and Reddan was poor.

molloyjh

ArmchairQB wrote: »

...to say we are playing better each week is untrue.

Since the Wasps game we are though. We probably would have won the Bath game but for our scrum. We beat Ulster pretty convincingly even if the scoreboard didn't reflect that and in the first half against Toulon we definitely looked the more likely side to do damage in open play. The improvements haven't been seismic, but they have been there. We've been creating space in the wide channels quite well and getting ourselves into decent positions off the back of that. We just haven't been clinical enough when getting there. In fact that's one of the few things that hasn't improved, and is the reason the results have been the way they are.

ArmchairQB wrote: »

We are currently in positions in our group and in our League that tell you exactly where we are at hopefully we improve as the season goes on. Will we improve on last season? I think not but hope we do!

We are where we are in Europe because of the Wasps game. We wouldn't have expected wins away to Bath or Toulon, although a LBP in Toulon would have been expected. In the league we are 4th with a game in hand and having played most of the league season with around 20 guys missing through RWC and injury. If anything this comment proves TFs point, which is that the season is getting judged on the Wasps game as much as it is anything else. And that's incredibly harsh. It was one game, where most of the guys starting had only played 1 game under the new systems and where we were missing 4 of our first choice back line and lost a further 3 guys from the pack during the game. It was an incredibly disappointing day at the office but you've got to look at it in context.

molloyjh

former total wrote: »

Can't imagine O'Brien would be available, JVDF deserves to keep the jersey ahead of Murphy.

Nacewa was very quiet on Sunday, I would consider dropping him for DK who looked sharp when he came on. Can't see it happening though.

Boss has to start, surely? He was solid enough and Reddan was poor.

Fully agree with all of this. My selection would be:

McGrath Cronin Ross
Toner McCarthy
Ruddock Heaslip VDF

Boss Sexton
Fitzgerald Te'o
D Kearney R Kearney McFadden

Tracy, Healy, Moore, Molony, Murphy, Reddan, Madigan, Ringrose

Sorry Isa....

JPNelsforearm

former total wrote: »

Can't imagine O'Brien would be available, JVDF deserves to keep the jersey ahead of Murphy.

Nacewa was very quiet on Sunday, I would consider dropping him for DK who looked sharp when he came on. Can't see it happening though.

Boss has to start, surely? He was solid enough and Reddan was poor.

SOB to six if fit, no way you can drop VDF, Nacewa to start at 15, what has RK done lately?

molloyjh

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

SOB to six if fit, no way you can drop VDF, Nacewa to start at 15, what has RK done lately?

SOB isn't fit and Isa looked poor on Sunday. He just hasn't looked sharp enough the last few weeks (since that injury). Rest him up and get him fully fit for the inter-pros. Rob is a powerful runner and actually did everything that was asked of him on Sunday (which in fairness wasn't very much).

JPNelsforearm

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

SOB to six if fit, no way you can drop VDF, Nacewa to start at 15, what has RK done lately?

Yeah to keep ISA on the pitch you would drop Rob Kearney and bring Dave onto the wing but I think we'll probably keep things the same.

I thought ISA was quiet also, but mostly I thought he actually looked a little off the pace for the intensity of the game.

Ultimately though this is an important game for us. My reasoning is that as much as we are out of Europe, this is a home Aviva game against the reigning champs with over 40,000 tickets sold. A win here would do a lot of good for the team and the fans and give us a bit of momentum going back into a tough run of pro 12 fixtures.

SOB can bench behind Ruddock and VdF if available imo.

sydthebeat

I dont see ANY reason for SOB to play this game if fit.

Give him another week, at the end of the day its a 'goalless' game (i wont call it meaningless, but if we loose the status quo remains)
JVF has been on an excellent upward thread this year, and ruddock was the best ball carrying forward last week

case885

Is bents contract up at the end of the season? He'd be a good candidate for the provincial swap I think.

molloyjh

case885 wrote: »

Is bents contract up at the end of the season? He'd be a good candidate for the provincial swap I think.

Definitely worth considering all right. Covers both sides of the scrum to a decent level. Who could use him most though? Ulster?

Eoin247

former total wrote: »

What wrecks my head about this discussion of late is that, prior to the Wasps game, we were all unanimous that Cullen was doing a pretty good job under very difficult circumstances.

Then he essentially got a brand new squad and was asked to turn them into European contenders in the space of a week or two.

And then people are b*tching because things didn't go swimmingly? Is that a reasonable position?

Performances are on an upward curve. Wasps was a disaster, Bath was better, Toulon better again. I hope we'll see more improvement again this week.

I don't know about here, but leinster supporters on reddit were largely critical of cullens appointment since the beginning.

molloyjh

Eoin247 wrote: »

I don't know about here, but leinster supporters on reddit were largely critical of cullens appointment since the beginning.

Well the appointment itself drew a good bit of criticism here too, but the performances and direction we saw pre-Wasps was generally pretty positive, which is what TF is referring to.

case885

molloyjh wrote:

Definitely worth considering all right. Covers both sides of the scrum to a decent level. Who could use him most though? Ulster?

The rumour was ah you going to Ulster so they must be on the lookout for one.
Didn't think I'd ever say this but bent would be very welcome at Munster although we need someone of higher quality at TH I just don't see where that player will come from, bent would certainly add some depth for us anyway.

former total

Eoin247 wrote: »

I don't know about here, but leinster supporters on reddit were largely critical of cullens appointment since the beginning.

I was critical of it too, when it was announced. A guy with only one year of assistant coach under his belt, and not a particularly successful year either - I was not optimistic.

But once the guy is in place, all you can do is judge him on his performances and I think he's done well, all things considered.

JPNelsforearm

molloyjh wrote: »

Well the appointment itself drew a good bit of criticism here too, but the performances and direction we saw pre-Wasps was generally pretty positive, which is what TF is referring to.

Is it fair to say we've gotten worse, or shown less direction since "integrating" the WC players, or is it that in conjunction with facing better opposition..

CMOTDibbler

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Is it fair to say we've gotten worse, or shown less direction since "integrating" the WC players, or is it that in conjunction with facing better opposition..

I think there was a backward step taken initially and then the opposition got tougher and although there were some improvements, they were incremental and offset by some more backward steps.

So there's a bit more cohesion, but there was a distinct lack of discipline against Toulon. Accuracy has improved slightly, but it's like we're adding an extra phase or two before the errors creep in again. Frustrating to watch and probably just as frustrating for the players.

We'll see how the next game goes and it's good that it's Toulon again as a benchmark against last Sunday.

molloyjh

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Is it fair to say we've gotten worse, or shown less direction since "integrating" the WC players, or is it that in conjunction with facing better opposition..

Well first you've got to remember that the internationals didn't have a pre-season with Leinster really so they were coming into a totally new set-up pretty much cold. The first few weeks was always going to be about getting settled into Leos Leinster.

On top of that the younger lads would have worked with Girv and Fogs before on the A team so there was always more familiarity there and so getting thinks to click with those guys was always going to be easier. So when compared to the internationals they would have settled in quicker (and used the pre-season to assist in that regard).

Then we have the fact we were playing stronger opposition all right. Wasps didn't have anywhere near the level of disruption that we had during the RWC and have a pretty settled set-up. They also didn't have the injury concerns before and during the game that we ended up having either. So we were a team only starting to get our heads around the new systems and missing numerous key players against a team who were pretty settled in how they played the game and weren't missing as many.

Over the last few weeks that has become less and less true and our performances have looked a bit better each week as a result. And while the above doesn't explain everything, when you consider that since the Wasps game we've probably only gotten 1 point less in 3 games than we'd have settled for (the LBP on Sunday) it shows that it's not all doom and gloom as some might suggest. Novice coaches, slight inaccuracies at times and Sextons poor form factor in as well, but if we can get the latter 2 fixed we should be in a good enough place.

We did drop off a bit when the internationals came back, but for good reason. We maybe haven't stepped it back up as quickly as we could have but we are going in the right direction. Albeit slowly.

Clegg

Leinster has definitely improved results wise since the Wasps hammering which was the worst performance in a big game for years. Although I'm not entirely sure if that's down to Leinster actually playing better orthe opposition being weaker than Wasps.

WarZ

molloyjh wrote: »

Well first you've got to remember that the internationals didn't have a pre-season with Leinster really so they were coming into a totally new set-up pretty much cold. The first few weeks was always going to be about getting settled into Leos Leinster.

On top of that the younger lads would have worked with Girv and Fogs before on the A team so there was always more familiarity there and so getting thinks to click with those guys was always going to be easier. So when compared to the internationals they would have settled in quicker (and used the pre-season to assist in that regard).

Then we have the fact we were playing stronger opposition all right. Wasps didn't have anywhere near the level of disruption that we had during the RWC and have a pretty settled set-up. They also didn't have the injury concerns before and during the game that we ended up having either. So we were a team only starting to get our heads around the new systems and missing numerous key players against a team who were pretty settled in how they played the game and weren't missing as many.

Over the last few weeks that has become less and less true and our performances have looked a bit better each week as a result. And while the above doesn't explain everything, when you consider that since the Wasps game we've probably only gotten 1 point less in 3 games than we'd have settled for (the LBP on Sunday) it shows that it's not all doom and gloom as some might suggest. Novice coaches, slight inaccuracies at times and Sextons poor form factor in as well, but if we can get the latter 2 fixed we should be in a good enough place.

We did drop off a bit when the internationals came back, but for good reason. We maybe haven't stepped it back up as quickly as we could have but we are going in the right direction. Albeit slowly.

So basically its all down to the infamous 'world cup hangover'