Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

molloyjh

scott1974 wrote: »

Make of this what you will but Nucifora is definitely planting a few seeds for thought.

The future of provincial rugby looks up for change.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/irfu-not-for-turning-on-recruiting-foreign-players-1.2475634

I like that interview. Puts to bed the idea that Moore was blocked by the IRFU as well as the idea that they are forcing players to switch provinces. I think that was all very reasonable from Nucifora and and can't see how anyone could have an issue with what he is saying. We simply do need to make better use of our playing resources than we are. In the long term everyone benefits from that.

molloyjh

former total wrote: »

No, they absolutely will not.

This is very, very bad news for rugby in Ireland as a whole.

What is? That we're keeping the 4+1 while trying to make better use of the resources across the country?

former total

molloyjh wrote: »

I like that interview. Puts to bed the idea that Moore was blocked by the IRFU as well as the idea that they are forcing players to switch provinces. I think that was all very reasonable from Nucifora and and can't see how anyone could have an issue with what he is saying. We simply do need to make better use of our playing resources than we are. In the long term everyone benefits from that.

It's also very clear that the IRFU wouldn't let Munster offer him enough money to make it viable. So the net result is the same.

The objective here is very, very clear. The provinces will be sacrificed for the good of the national team. How "everyone" benefits from that in the long term is very debatable.

former total

molloyjh wrote: »

What is? That we're keeping the 4+1 while trying to make better use of the resources across the country?

Are we keeping the 4+1? Maybe, maybe not.

David Nucifora wrote:

But the four-plus-one is merely a number. It is a maximum and each player that is put forward has to fit into a business case and if they don’t fit into the province’s business model and the succession planning of the national side they it is not a good fit. So it doesn’t have to be four-plus-one.

So let's go through that again. The province can have a maximum of 4+1, so long as those five players aren't really that good and aren't keeping any potential internationals on the bench. It could well be that a province only ends up with 1 or 2 foreigners. The net result is that we can sign foreign dirt-trackers. Yaaay, that will have them flocking back to the RDS.

As I said, the provinces are being sacrificed. If people are OK with that, then fine. I'm not.

molloyjh

former total wrote: »

It's also very clear that the IRFU wouldn't let Munster offer him enough money to make it viable. So the net result is the same.

The objective here is very, very clear. The provinces will be sacrificed for the good of the national team. How "everyone" benefits from that in the long term is very debatable.

Sacrificed? That's a bit much. If Munster were developing talent the way they should be they'd be competing well enough in Europe. Ulster are competing, Connacht look set to qualify for the CC off their own results and Leinster are on a bad run of form but aren't at all far off from competing either. The stronger our development pathways get the better we'll all be and the more players move around the more we can all benefit from that.

This is all part of a greater plan for Irish rugby which has the potential to improve on where we are now. And where we are now isn't anywhere near as bad as some would suggest.

aimee1

former total wrote: »

Are we keeping the 4+1? Maybe, maybe not.



So let's go through that again. The province can have a maximum of 4+1, so long as those five players aren't really that good and aren't keeping any potential internationals on the bench. It could well be that a province only ends up with 1 or 2 foreigners. The net result is that we can sign foreign dirt-trackers. Yaaay, that will have them flocking back to the RDS.

As I said, the provinces are being sacrificed. If people are OK with that, then fine. I'm not.

How are they being sacrificed? Surely if better locals come through in the long run that benefits the national side and the provinces.

former total

aimee1 wrote: »

How are they being sacrificed? Surely if better locals come through in the long run that benefits the national side and the provinces.

That's a pretty big "if".

On the basis of what is coming through from the academies the last couple of years, it's massively optimistic and, let's face it, completely unrealistic.

b.gud

molloyjh wrote: »

I like that interview. Puts to bed the idea that Moore was blocked by the IRFU as well as the idea that they are forcing players to switch provinces. I think that was all very reasonable from Nucifora and and can't see how anyone could have an issue with what he is saying . We simply do need to make better use of our playing resources than we are. In the long term everyone benefits from that.

Come on now molloyjh you've been around here for a while, we both know issue will easily be found with it

molloyjh

former total wrote: »

That's a pretty big "if".

On the basis of what is coming through from the academies the last couple of years, it's massively optimistic and, let's face it, completely unrealistic.

But that is why they are also looking at the structures around all of that as well. As I said, part of a bigger plan. And we have Acadamies prodcuing guys like Olding, McCloskey, Moore, Furlong, VDF, Ringrose, Henshaw etc etc. There is talent there and we just need to get better at identifying and developing it. Which the IRFU are working on as well. We can't simply click our fingers and make it all perfect, we need to put the systems in place and go from there. Which is exactly what we're trying to do.

whatawaster

I think people are being overly negative regarding the state of the provinces.

- Leinster have the most difficult group and while their results have been awful, imo they have shown they aren't a million miles away from the likes of Bath and Toulon.

- Leinster are in transition with their coaching staff, Ulster have just changed coach having had an interim coach in place and Munster I would say have coaching issues as well.

- Are there any clubs in europe producing better young talent than the Irish provinces? If they supplement this with 4/5 quality overseas additions, they can all compete in Europe. But the coaching set-ups need to be right. Kiss looks good so far at Ulster, and has the experience. Cullen could go either way. I would have serious doubts about Foley. Lam has been excellent.

former total

molloyjh wrote: »

But that is why they are also looking at the structures around all of that as well. As I said, part of a bigger plan. And we have Acadamies prodcuing guys like Olding, McCloskey, Moore, Furlong, VDF, Ringrose, Henshaw etc etc. There is talent there and we just need to get better at identifying and developing it. Which the IRFU are working on as well. We can't simply click our fingers and make it all perfect, we need to put the systems in place and go from there. Which is exactly what we're trying to do.

I wasn't aware that the academy structures were under review, but super, I wholeheartedly endorse the development of as many young Irish guys as possible. Let's not pretend that the performances, crowds and income of the provinces won't suffer as a result of denying them the ability to sign decent foreigners though.

There's just such a gap in logic in Nucifora's statements. He wants as many players as possible to be first choice and playing full games, great. He wants players to be willing to pack their bags and move in order to get that game time, I'm fully on board. But players who move abroad for gametime will still be overlooked? You betcha!

This is an exercise in arse-covering after a disappointing world cup. An internal review in which a guy reviews his own performance and the performance of the guy he's responsible for supervising - and lo and behold the problem isn't in anything they did or did not do, it's the foreigners innit?

whatawaster

former total wrote: »

But players who move abroad for gametime will still be overlooked? You betcha!

He never said they would be overlooked.

He said they will be at a disadvantage, which they obviously will be because they won't be released for as many camps etc as Irish based players.

Clegg

This is from the 42 article about Nucifora saying he didn't block a move for Stephen Moore:

Nucifora cited another example where Leinster had attempted to bring in a back row, with the IRFU declining, and pointed out that Josh van der Flier has excelled in the eastern province’s back row instead.

Question I have is why were Leinster trying to sign a backrow when we have so many good options and who was it?

former total

Clegg wrote: »

This is from the 42 article about Nucifora saying he didn't block a move for Stephen Moore:



Question I have is why were Leinster trying to sign a backrow when we have so many good options and who was it?

Can only assume it was a short-term signing for World Cup cover.

JPNelsforearm

former total wrote: »

That's a pretty big "if".

On the basis of what is coming through from the academies the last couple of years, it's massively optimistic and, let's face it, completely unrealistic.

Hopefully it will encourage diversification of the player base, we have hundreds of club players who could potentially be internationals, but weren't given the support. We have enough players, just a narrow recruitment and retention system, its complete fantasy to think only a handful of players each year have the potential to be professionals.

Neil3030

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Hopefully it will encourage diversification of the player base, we have hundreds of club players who could potentially be internationals, but weren't given the support. We have enough players, just a narrow recruitment and retention system, its complete fantasy to think only a handful of players each year have the potential to be professionals.

I can only assume you meant to log onto boards.co.nz?

molloyjh

former total wrote: »

I wasn't aware that the academy structures were under review, but super, I wholeheartedly endorse the development of as many young Irish guys as possible. Let's not pretend that the performances, crowds and income of the provinces won't suffer as a result of denying them the ability to sign decent foreigners though.

There's just such a gap in logic in Nucifora's statements. He wants as many players as possible to be first choice and playing full games, great. He wants players to be willing to pack their bags and move in order to get that game time, I'm fully on board. But players who move abroad for gametime will still be overlooked? You betcha!

This is an exercise in arse-covering after a disappointing world cup. An internal review in which a guy reviews his own performance and the performance of the guy he's responsible for supervising - and lo and behold the problem isn't in anything they did or did not do, it's the foreigners innit?

I think you may need to read the article again and maybe watch the video up on the IRFU site as well.

For starters he does talk about signing quality NIQs. Sure look at Piutau at Ulster and Douglas who we were allowed sign not long ago. These guys are, regardless of how they pan out, quality signings.

He also says that players playing abroad will not be overlooked, but given the logistics will be at a natural disadvantage. That's a very fair statement.

He never blamed "the foreigner" so I've no idea where that came from.

And finally we haven't seen the results of the review but Joe was talking about all the kinds of things we're hearing about now before the RWC ever started so it's not new and it's not some sort of knee jerk reaction. Attendances in Connacht and Ulster are fine btw. In Munster and Leinster they are down but then a lot of that is down to other issues. If Leinster can refind some form then the attendances will not be an issue. Munster have problems though, but they aren't problems a handful of good NIQs can fix.

crisco10

Have to say, I'm not sure that the niq approach will actually change things. The provinces have been struggling to get anything more than dirt trackers as niqs really. Just look at leinster, we lost Douglas and teo as soon as they got better, and we kept Zane and signed back isa. We just don't have the money to get rocky elsoms or doug howletts of this world for the foreseeable future.

former total

molloyjh wrote: »

I think you may need to read the article again and maybe watch the video up on the IRFU site as well.

Yes, that will give me the unbiased critical appraisal of the situation that I'm looking for.

molloyjh wrote: »

For starters he does talk about signing quality NIQs. Sure look at Piutau at Ulster and Douglas who we were allowed sign not long ago. These guys are, regardless of how they pan out, quality signings.

He also says that players playing abroad will not be overlooked, but given the logistics will be at a natural disadvantage. That's a very fair statement.

He never blamed "the foreigner" so I've no idea where that came from.

And finally we haven't seen the results of the review but Joe was talking about all the kinds of things we're hearing about now before the RWC ever started so it's not new and it's not some sort of knee jerk reaction. Attendances in Connacht and Ulster are fine btw. In Munster and Leinster they are down but then a lot of that is down to other issues. If Leinster can refind some form then the attendances will not be an issue. Munster have problems though, but they aren't problems a handful of good NIQs can fix.

Piutau and Douglas are outliers in a wider trend.

It's the fact that players moving abroad are straight away put at a disadvantage that I'm complaining about, maybe the national coaches are too fixated on the innumerable training camps? Didn't seem to do the Pumas too much harm when they were dismantling us there a while back.

As for blaming foreigners, yes, that's exactly what this is. It's just couched in management speak about "fitting the business model".

Attendances will continue to fall so long as the provinces are uncompetitive at European level. The Pro12 will not hack it and the casual fan will not turn up if results do not improve.

But it's an ideological question really; you're either happy that the provinces are to be made even more subservient to the national team or you're not, I don't expect you to agree with me, but this is not a mutually beneficial turn of events.

CatFromHue

former total wrote: »

It's the fact that players moving abroad are straight away put at a disadvantage that I'm complaining about, maybe the national coaches are too fixated on the innumerable training camps? Didn't seem to do the Pumas too much harm when they were dismantling us there a while back.

I'm not sure if it's a disadvantage in getting picked for the team/squad but it is a disadvantage when a guy has to leave during camp. The camp being the week/weeks between games in the 6N.

JPNelsforearm

Neil3030 wrote: »

I can only assume you meant to log onto boards.co.nz?

Ha, I didnt say world class, I said "an international", someone who wins one or two caps (eg a grossly unfit and overweight Rodney Ah You on the Argentina tour, or Dom Ryan) is an international, irrespective of their long term future they are still "an international".
The clubs game and underage club players are ignored, money should be pumped into gym and coaching facilities as that is really the only difference between some schools hero and some lad who wouldnt get a whiff of a sub academy spot.

Clegg

IT article calling for Ringrose to be given more involvement in the starting 15. It's a bit disappointing that he's been dropped from the 23 after his strong showings this season.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/leinster-should-look-to-ringrose-as-te-o-decides-to-move-on-1.2475419

KH25

Personally I think Ringrose did enough early on to merit a place on the bench.

Ringrose has shown potential but people need to calm down a bit. He looks the real deal but he's not outperforming the seniors just yet and has been shown up defensively.

Lot more hype than evidence so far.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Ringrose has shown potential but people need to calm down a bit. He looks the real deal but he's not outperforming the seniors just yet and has been shown up defensively.

Lot more hype than evidence so far.

For me there is still absolutely no justification for not involving him in that game that Te'o missed. He should have been starting.

And he has outperformed some of the seniors imo, certainly Kirchner. He also hasn't really been shown up defensively at all, in fact his defensive contribution has been very strong, as well as his support play off the ball and at the breakdown, in the games he was starting.

sheep?

Deleted User wrote: »

Ringrose has shown potential but people need to calm down a bit. He looks the real deal but he's not outperforming the seniors just yet and has been shown up defensively.

Lot more hype than evidence so far.

Ah, he's outperformed Zane to be fair. And if he hasn't, he certainly hasn't been worse than him. He might make a few mistakes, but that's how he'll learn. He won't lose us a top 4 finish in the Pro 12 by putting him on the bench more.

Clegg

There's definitely an element of over hype with Ringrose. I think that's partly down to a rather sobering previous season and the fact that we've had no real quality backs come through since Fitzgerald and Rob Kearney. That's almost 10 years after all. Ringrose definitely looks like he has all the tools to be a quality centre though. And for a 20 year old he certainly doesn't look overawed to be playing for the senior team.

former total

This whole Cian Healy thing is ridiculous.

http://www.epcrugby.com/europeanrugbychampionscup/news/32036.php#.VnrQ1_mLTIU

The Rape of Lucretia

Rosie will get plenty of game time in the new year, during 6N season, and both games in the RC given that they are only training games now for us, yet the opposition will be taking them seriously still being in the hunt. Good experience for him.

whatawaster

Deleted User wrote: »

Ringrose has shown potential but people need to calm down a bit. He looks the real deal but he's not outperforming the seniors just yet and has been shown up defensively.

Lot more hype than evidence so far.

Has not been shown up defensively.

Has looked more dangerous in attack than all our backs besides Fitzgerald and Te'o.

Should at least be in the 23, imo should be starting some more games