Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

molloyjh

LorMal wrote: »

Any chance that he was just crap? On all the evidence we have seen over the past 2 years, it would appear that he is not the player he was once deemed to be.
I believe we will rue the loss of Madigan.

We will in our hoop. I've refrained from posting about Madigans move because I've already made my feelings about the guy clear. Lots of raw skill but lacks the "rugby brain" to run a game from 10. He did nothing at all special against Munster bar 1 good cross field and a good place kick from out wide. Some of his up and unders were poor, and his decision to stick one up from inside our own 22 was just crazy. His decision making from 10 since coming back from the RWC has been ropey with some absolute clangers in that regard. But he's always struggled with that part of his game.

Sexton is a vastly superior player who has been through a couple of weeks of bad form. He seems to be coming out the other side of that now with a much improved performance against Toulon in the Aviva. And I prefer the idea of Marsh and Byrne getting game time at 10 to Madigan at this stage. This move is the best for all concerned. And while I know some people have a bit of a love affair with Madigan because he can look lively with ball in hand, there is a real lack of understanding that a 10s job includes far more than just being an exciting player who can kick his goals. He has to organise, make good decisions on the fly, bring guys into the game well and be on the same wavelength as those around him. These are things that Mads simply isn't that good at. And all the natural skill in the world doesn't change that.

former total

The issue is not Madigan vs Sexton. The issue is Madigan vs who will replace him.

We won't be allowed sign anyone close to his quality and it's a long shot that Marsh will be anywhere near as good.

Given how injury prone Sexton is, it could well turn out pretty badly.

molloyjh

former total wrote: »

The issue is not Madigan vs Sexton. The issue is Madigan vs who will replace him.

We won't be allowed sign anyone close to his quality and it's a long shot that Marsh will be anywhere near as good.

Given how injury prone Sexton is, it could well turn out pretty badly.

I don't think it's that much of a long shot at all. Marsh has already played better at 10 for Leinster this season than Mads has IMO. He isn't as good from the tee and he doesn't have the same skill set but he does seem to get more out of his back line. And Byrne looks a great prospect too. Having the 2 of them getting a decent amount of game time next season has the potential to work out really well for us.

irishbucsfan

I don't think it's a long shot that Marsh will be anywhere near as good. At all. I think Marsh is capable of doing things from 10 that Madigan is not capable of already, I'm excited at the prospect of seeing him again this season in some decent games (surely we need to sideline Madigan a bit now).

sheep?

Jaysus. Reports of €500,000/season?

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/ian-madigan-exit-will-put-irfu-policy-under-microscope-1.2478934

Fair play to him.

CMOTDibbler

sheep? wrote: »

Jaysus. Reports of €500,000/season?

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/ian-madigan-exit-will-put-irfu-policy-under-microscope-1.2478934

Fair play to him.

That's not unusual for a T14 club. These clubs have budgets in or around €30 million a season.

Hagz

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

That's not unusual for a T14 club. These clubs have budgets in or around €30 million a season.

According to this report, Thierry Dusatoir is on <500k p.a. and he is/was one of the top 5 highest paid in the Top 14.

http://www.joe.ie/sport/jonny-wilkinson-pips-jonny-sexton-as-top-14s-top-earner/364303

irishbucsfan

Hagz wrote: »

According to this report, Thierry Dusatoir is on <500k p.a. and he is/was one of the top 5 highest paid in the Top 14.

http://www.joe.ie/sport/jonny-wilkinson-pips-jonny-sexton-as-top-14s-top-earner/364303

Average of about 175k according to that article. Bordeaux will be expecting a lot from Madigan if that figure is true (we won't know how true it is until after next season I guess).

errlloyd

Hagz wrote: »

According to this report, Thierry Dusatoir is on <500k p.a. and he is/was one of the top 5 highest paid in the Top 14.

http://www.joe.ie/sport/jonny-wilkinson-pips-jonny-sexton-as-top-14s-top-earner/364303

That's article is very old. Two years has seen a huge change since those extra tv deals were signed.

irishbucsfan

errlloyd wrote: »

That's article is very old. Two years has seen a huge change since those extra tv deals were signed.

According to the report that article refers to the figures were expected to fall the following season. Those deals were in place last season.

Hagz

errlloyd wrote: »

That's article is very old. Two years has seen a huge change since those extra tv deals were signed.

This article is from this year and seems to be along the same lines more or less.

http://www.cityam.com/224772/rugby-world-cup-2015-rugbys-10-highest-paid-players-salaries-dwarfed-footballs-best

Tox56

sheep? wrote: »

Jaysus. Reports of €500,000/season?

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/ian-madigan-exit-will-put-irfu-policy-under-microscope-1.2478934

Fair play to him.

An excellent place kicker who can play 10, 12 and 15, and even has the potential to cover 9, and is in the prime of his career, and has an "X Factor", I expect he got a lot of very tempting offers from abroad

Bazzo

This is exactly why I'm not a fan of a lot of the rubbishing of Madigan that goes on. You don't get big salary offers like that from multiple clubs by being "average" or "limited". IMO(and I have a feeling it'll be unpopular around here) he's completely underrated by a lot of people.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Bazzo wrote: »

This is exactly why I'm not a fan of a lot of the rubbishing of Madigan that goes on. You don't get big salary offers like that from multiple clubs by being "average" or "limited". IMO(and I have a feeling it'll be unpopular around here) he's completely underrated by a lot of people.

I think a few people have pointed out in the past day or so that Madigan will probably be well suited to the French game where the 9 traditionally runs things. The things he is lacking that make people question him here won't be as big an issue there. The people making the decisions to bring him to France would presumably be aware of this too.

molloyjh

Bazzo wrote: »

This is exactly why I'm not a fan of a lot of the rubbishing of Madigan that goes on. You don't get big salary offers like that from multiple clubs by being "average" or "limited". IMO(and I have a feeling it'll be unpopular around here) he's completely underrated by a lot of people.

There's a difference between saying he's average and identifying issues in his game. He is a very talented player and, as I and others have said, could thrive in a team where he isn't the main decision maker.

CatFromHue

Bazzo wrote: »

This is exactly why I'm not a fan of a lot of the rubbishing of Madigan that goes on. You don't get big salary offers like that from multiple clubs by being "average" or "limited". IMO(and I have a feeling it'll be unpopular around here) he's completely underrated by a lot of people.

Sam Burgess got half a mil and he'd never even played the game before

aimee1

CatFromHue wrote: »

Sam Burgess got half a mil and he'd never even played the game before

You have to remember, he got that from Bruce Craig

swiwi_

Tox56 wrote: »

An excellent place kicker who can play 10, 12 and 15, and even has the potential to cover 9, and is in the prime of his career, and has an "X Factor", I expect he got a lot of very tempting offers from abroad

It seems to me a fair number of French club games are won in multiples of 3. Colin Slade got MOTM for Pau in the weekend with 4 penalties and a dropgoal for their 15 points.

Regardless of Madigan's ability to do every single thing a top flyhalf is supposed to do, he is still a genuine matchwinner with his goalkicking.

Given that 10's and TH props are apparently the 2 most highly paid positions in the Top 14, I'm not surprised if he's on a very nice deal.

Bazzo

CatFromHue wrote: »

Sam Burgess got half a mil and he'd never even played the game before

Sam Burgess is an incredibly talented league player and would have been a very good union player too if himself and the RFU hadn't gone about his conversion from league to union completely arseways.

errlloyd

Hagz wrote: »

This article is from this year and seems to be along the same lines more or less.

http://www.cityam.com/224772/rugby-world-cup-2015-rugbys-10-highest-paid-players-salaries-dwarfed-footballs-best

That article has it's currencies all over the place, it is in pounds. It is also from pre-world cup.

The lowest player there is Bakkies Botha, on 389 grand, which I presume is just half a million euro at the exchange rate in September. So Madigan would be outside the top ten from a few months ago, but in that time there have been a stupid number of high profile signings.

Surely, Quade Cooper, Conrad Smith, Charles Piatua, Manu Tualagi (on his new contract), Ma'a Nonu, Paul O Connel have all entered in above Bakkies. In fact I am almost 100% sure POC got more and his was done and dusted, so that list isn't even exaustive. The top 14 salary cap is 10mn, doesn't include academies and is getting broken rather regularly if rumour is to be believed.

If you have a 10mn salary cap, and 40 senior players the average is 250k each. Surely the overseas signing "star" outhalf would be double the average?

former total

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I think a few people have pointed out in the past day or so that Madigan will probably be well suited to the French game where the 9 traditionally runs things. The things he is lacking that make people question him here won't be as big an issue there. The people making the decisions to bring him to France would presumably be aware of this too.

Who plays 9 for Bordeaux?

shuffol

Bazzo wrote: »

This is exactly why I'm not a fan of a lot of the rubbishing of Madigan that goes on. You don't get big salary offers like that from multiple clubs by being "average" or "limited". IMO(and I have a feeling it'll be unpopular around here) he's completely underrated by a lot of people.

He may not be an average player but he's put in a lot of average performances for Leinster over the past 2 years. I think he's done well out of being in the Irish 23 regularly during a successful spell plus the fact he's an excellent goalkicker and his obvious versatility.

I wish him well though and hope he can bring his game to a new level.

kig

I think that Madigan has made the right choice, if he is to improve as a 10 at all. Over the last 3 seasons with MOC & LC he has had little or no match time at 10, then he gets dropped into that position for Ireland, and gets criticised - totally unfair! When I look at the 10's in Ireland at the moment I cannot see anyone other than Madigan as Sextons successor. So also for the good of Irish Rugby I wish him well.

LorMal

molloyjh wrote: »

We will in our hoop. I've refrained from posting about Madigans move because I've already made my feelings about the guy clear. Lots of raw skill but lacks the "rugby brain" to run a game from 10. He did nothing at all special against Munster bar 1 good cross field and a good place kick from out wide. Some of his up and unders were poor, and his decision to stick one up from inside our own 22 was just crazy. His decision making from 10 since coming back from the RWC has been ropey with some absolute clangers in that regard. But he's always struggled with that part of his game.

Sexton is a vastly superior player who has been through a couple of weeks of bad form. He seems to be coming out the other side of that now with a much improved performance against Toulon in the Aviva. And I prefer the idea of Marsh and Byrne getting game time at 10 to Madigan at this stage. This move is the best for all concerned. And while I know some people have a bit of a love affair with Madigan because he can look lively with ball in hand, there is a real lack of understanding that a 10s job includes far more than just being an exciting player who can kick his goals. He has to organise, make good decisions on the fly, bring guys into the game well and be on the same wavelength as those around him. These are things that Mads simply isn't that good at. And all the natural skill in the world doesn't change that.

Yes he does have a propensity to panic in possession. He often over works an opportunity rather than just doing the simple stuff effectively. He makes poor choices sometimes. On the plus side, he has great flat passing ability, is a good tackler, a great kicker from the ground, is really energetic and always intensively involved.
However, I think he has been unlucky and has never had a sustained run as the number one choice 10 at Leinster (certainly Sexton used to be far better than him). I think he would have made an excellent foil to Sexton (not a replacement for him - unless Sextons form continues to drop).
Let's see how he gets on in France - I suspect he will do better than Sexton did.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

former total wrote: »

Who plays 9 for Bordeaux?

Yann Lesgourgues has been playing 9 in the Top14 and Heinie Adams played their two most recent European matches against Ospreys.

molloyjh

LorMal wrote: »

Yes he does have a propensity to panic in possession. He often over works an opportunity rather than just doing the simple stuff effectively. He makes poor choices sometimes. On the plus side, he has great flat passing ability, is a good tackler, a great kicker from the ground, is really energetic and always intensively involved.
However, I think he has been unlucky and has never had a sustained run as the number one choice 10 at Leinster (certainly Sexton used to be far better than him). I think he would have made an excellent foil to Sexton (not a replacement for him - unless Sextons form continues to drop).
Let's see how he gets on in France - I suspect he will do better than Sexton did.

I don't think he's unlucky at all. He hasn't done anything to justify a sustained run at the starting jersey. Even when Sexton left he couldn't displace Gopperth. I know a lot of people are happy to point the finger at MOC but he got a few opportunities to show what he could do and couldn't take them. Leinster are not a development team, there to babysit a player into delivering on his potential regardless of how long it takes.

Triumvirate

He once had 5 starts in a row at 10 under O'Connor. That's about as many consecutive starts as anyone gets for a province. He was playing worse at the end of the run than he was at the start.

He will never be a high quality outhalf. His versatility combined with goal kicking and defensive solidity make him a highly prized acquisition, though, which any team would like to have.

Tox56

Triumvirate wrote: »

His versatility combined with goal kicking and defensive solidity make him a highly prized acquisition, though, which any team would like to have.

And his attacking ability? I can understand the "he cant run a backline" argument, hes not going to be a top class 10 or even particularly consistent, but he is a dangerous attacking player, hes shown that at all levels, in various positions, the fact he isnt good enough at running the game from 10 doesnt change that

Triumvirate

Tox56 wrote: »

And his attacking ability? I can understand the "he cant run a backline" argument, hes not going to be a top class 10 or even particularly consistent, but he is a dangerous attacking player, hes shown that at all levels, in various positions, the fact he isnt good enough at running the game from 10 doesnt change that

The famed attacking ability isn't that potent any longer nor has it been for some time. Opposition teams copped on to his style some time ago. His line breaks have diminished hugely in the last 2-3 years. Defence drifts, he drifts and steps inside defender to scamper through. It was the same thing and far less common now.

He's a really good player but has some limitations that hold him back as a 10. If he was a better decision maker and kicker from hand in open play, he'd be a superb player. Unfortunately, those are pretty big things as a 10.

LorMal

molloyjh wrote: »

I don't think he's unlucky at all. He hasn't done anything to justify a sustained run at the starting jersey. Even when Sexton left he couldn't displace Gopperth. I know a lot of people are happy to point the finger at MOC but he got a few opportunities to show what he could do and couldn't take them. Leinster are not a development team, there to babysit a player into delivering on his potential regardless of how long it takes.

MOC didn't pick him. His 'opportunities to show what he could do' were extremely limited under MOC. However, he played very well for Leinster under Schmidt.
Given your scathing opinion of Madigan, how come Bordeaux are signing him? They are stupid, non?