Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

flouncer

Stheno wrote: »

Ah now, what I was going to say wasn't that bad.

We used call it a BA in bull****

Lovely.

Hagz

Where does he even fit into Leinster?

Does Fitzy move out to the wing again? I think he's been brilliant at 12.

No way does he come in at 13. That would just be outrageous.

The move just wouldn't be good for Irish rugby.

Stheno

flouncer wrote: »

Lovely.

It was a joke, a snobby academic joke, but a joke, get over yourself.

Being someone who dropped out as an undergrad, and had to undertake third level education part time while working, I envy those with their BAs in Bull**** for having stuck it out

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Hagz wrote: »

Where does he even fit into Leinster?

Does Fitzy move out to the wing again? I think he's been brilliant at 12.

No way does he come in at 13. That would just be outrageous.

The move just wouldn't be good for Irish rugby.

I thought Fitz had been slimming down a bit because he was going to be a full time winger and then he keeps getting put at 12 or 13?

He's looked good since the WC, I have to admit, but I still think he should be on the wing.

I assume they'd play Henshaw at 12 and occasionally 15.

.ak

Fitz's best position is 11, but I think he's an excellent 12 also.

With mads and teo leaving then henshaw would most certainly be joining as a centre

Todd Toddington III

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

Why bring in Bambam when R. Henshaw is the likely move ?

Why not? They need back rows up north, we're light at centre, fair swap imo. If the henshaw deal is true then send Murphy or similar north or West to help spread talent. Ulster could then send one of their many good centres to munster or Connacht. If nucifora can pull something like this off then ill tip my hat to the man

pickarooney

What's the story with the Byrne twins? I haven't heard anything about them in a while.

Hagz

pickarooney wrote: »

What's the story with the Byrne twins? I haven't heard anything about them in a while.

Ed Byrne did his cruciate or hamstring in a pre-season game. Doubt we'll see him at all this season. Bryan Byrne has been playing for 'Tarf and the 'A' team with Cullen seemingly preferring Tracy.

vienne86

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It pains me to say it, but I dont think I have heard anything from him yet to suggest he is any more of a commentator than the rest of us.

I think he talks a lot of sense, but he has a very flat voice which sounds boring. He sounds very dull when doing a match commentary, but I think he is good in the studio...i.e. when you can see him. He is 'good' but not 'great' in the studio though, IMO.

hogandrew

.ak wrote: »

Fitz's best position is 11, but I think he's an excellent 12 also.

With mads and teo leaving then henshaw would most certainly be joining as a centre

There'll still be a bad need for another centre along with that. With henshaw, ringrose and fitz most likely being called up to the Ireland squads and needing to be rested it would leave choices pretty low

Stainalert

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It may have something of the old amateur reward feeling to it, but is it really the way to pick a team ? Surely, if the investment is being put into the academy players, then giving them game time is the way to develop them best. Not jumping them for someone who may be playing well at a lower level, and is only a shortterm stopgap anyway. If they are really good enough, then they shouldnt be in the AIL. Injury plagues or exceptional circumstances excepted.

Disagree there are plenty of players in AIL more than capable of playing PRO rugby. Matt Healy & Craig Ronaldson are just 2 examples of players who have made the step up from AIL and flourished - There are plenty of quality players who don't make the provincial academies for lots of different reasons - To write them off is daft. Despite all the science in rugby player selection is still very much a subjective decision driven by coaches preferences. One player might appeal to a specific coach whilst another coach might not rate the player.

CMOTDibbler

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It may have something of the old amateur reward feeling to it, but is it really the way to pick a team ? Surely, if the investment is being put into the academy players, then giving them game time is the way to develop them best.

Stainalert wrote: »

Disagree there is plenty of players in AIL more than capable of playing PRO rugby. Matt Healy & Craig Ronaldson are just 2 examples of players who have made the step up from AIL and flourished - There are plenty of quality players who don't make the provincial academies for lots of different reasons - To write them off is daft. Despite all the science in rugby player selection is still very much a subjective decision driven by coaches preferences. One player might appeal to a specific coach whilst another coach might not rate the player.

I think you're both right

The academies are too small. They need more investment and to at least double in size. It's absolute madness that Leinster only select eight or nine players each year for full academy slots. The point about coaches differing is well made. I know of at least one player in the Leinster sub academy who is very talented but won't make it through because he's been injured most of the season. Leinster can do this because there are so many players to choose from. The reality is that there has to be exceptional need and an exceptional player to get from AIL to a Leinster senior start.

And they don't play enough matches. People think that because they are in AIL clubs as well that they get plenty of game time, but it's not the case. A lot of the time they aren't available or are told not to play or train by their academy coaches for fear of injury.

thomond2006

There are only so many senior squad places on offer. Increasing the numbers in the academy only increases the number of players you cut after three years.

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

There are only so many senior squad places on offer. Increasing the numbers in the academy only increases the number of players you cut after three years.

It'd be great news for the Championship

errlloyd

thomond2006 wrote: »

There are only so many senior squad places on offer. Increasing the numbers in the academy only increases the number of players you cut after three years.

I guess the argument is that we're bad at identifying talent at age 18. So double the chances of catching a good one. (Ajj McGinty managed to miss out for instance).

How centralised is the academy structure. In New Zealand there is effectively a draft as far as I understand. I know we don't have that, but do connacht, munster and ulster selectors come to the Leinster try outs and make offers. (even like second round offers) or does a player who misses out a home contract have to travel themselves?

molloyjh

errlloyd wrote: »

I guess the argument is that we're bad at identifying talent at age 18. So double the chances of catching a good one. (Ajj McGinty managed to miss out for instance).

How centralised is the academy structure. In New Zealand there is effectively a draft as far as I understand. I know we don't have that, but do connacht, munster and ulster selectors come to the Leinster try outs and make offers. (even like second round offers) or does a player who misses out a home contract have to travel themselves?

Did we really "miss" McGinty? We had Sexton a couple of years ahead of him and then Mads and McKinley both within a year of McGinty. I don't think McGinty would have ever been picked up tbh. I don't know if other provinces do take a look at young talent from around the country but you'd have to think that they do. It would be mad not to.

Buer

McGinty played AIL. No province was interested at the time. He's 25 now and a back up at Connacht. Definitely not one that got away at this time.

irishbucsfan

When I was playing club rugby in Ireland our coach was involved provincially and we had guys do preseason with us while being assessed by Leinster. A few guys came down from Ulster but none were picked up. A couple of SH guys as well. We'd then try to keep these guys, fail, and they'd end up going home

The Lost Sheep

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I think you're both right

The academies are too small. They need more investment and to at least double in size. It's absolute madness that Leinster only select eight or nine players each year for full academy slots. The point about coaches differing is well made. I know of at least one player in the Leinster sub academy who is very talented but won't make it through because he's been injured most of the season. Leinster can do this because there are so many players to choose from. The reality is that there has to be exceptional need and an exceptional player to get from AIL to a Leinster senior start.

And they don't play enough matches. People think that because they are in AIL clubs as well that they get plenty of game time, but it's not the case. A lot of the time they aren't available or are told not to play or train by their academy coaches for fear of injury.

The academies are not too small. They don't need to double in size as that isn't needed and would be a waste. There isn't the talent here for academies to double in size.
Leinster pick 8 or 9 players a year like the other provinces as they have to be realistic. Not all who make an academy will go on and get a professional contract or development contract and better focus on the best with another group of players in the sub academy and being talked about/looked at
The top guys at 19/20 years old do play enough matches. How many games do you think they should be playing on top of what they already do play?

errlloyd wrote: »

I guess the argument is that we're bad at identifying talent at age 18. So double the chances of catching a good one. (Ajj McGinty managed to miss out for instance).

How centralised is the academy structure. In New Zealand there is effectively a draft as far as I understand. I know we don't have that, but do connacht, munster and ulster selectors come to the Leinster try outs and make offers. (even like second round offers) or does a player who misses out a home contract have to travel themselves?

There isn't try outs/trials in any way like you describe. There isn't any system like that

CMOTDibbler

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The academies are not too small. They don't need to double in size as that isn't needed and would be a waste. There isn't the talent here for academies to double in size.
Leinster pick 8 or 9 players a year like the other provinces as they have to be realistic. Not all who make an academy will go on and get a professional contract or development contract and better focus on the best with another group of players in the sub academy and being talked about/looked at
The top guys at 19/20 years old do play enough matches. How many games do you think they should be playing on top of what they already do play?

A lot of questions there, but I'll endeavour to answer them all. Bear in mind that this is something I've thought about for a while and have discussed with current AIL players who know the ins and outs of the academies and know academy players, provincial players and capped internationals. I'm not name dropping, I'm just trying to give a bit of background and demonstrate that this idea has been discussed at length and balanced/tweaked by the experience these guys have had.

1. There isn't the talent: We actually don't know this for a fact. We *do* know that players develop at different ages and that injuries at a crucial time can completely end a player's chances. There's actually a small enough 'window' of opportunity for a player to be picked up as a prospect. Often it's as young as 15 or 16. Leinster have something like 40 schools (never mind clubs) playing rugby in the province. To say that there couldn't be more than eight or nine prospects from that sized pool in a single year beggars belief.

2. There isn't enough room for them in the provinces: This is true... ish. At the same time, a quick run around the provinces tells us that all of them are short in certain positions. Leinster are tight at 9 and second row. Ulster need back rows, Connacht also at back row and are relying on imports. Munster need a 9 and 10 at least. Expanding the academies will lead to oversupply, but it's far better to be looking at them than looking for them. As ibf says, the championship needs players, but that's another story.

3. Not enough matches: Have a quick look at the academy pages and tot up the game time (B+I and Interpro) these guys get. It's miniscule. Many of them have 0 caps at any level which means they are playing AIL when they can. I believe that they need to be playing more regularly and with their academy team mates instead of broken up and all over the AIL. The idea is that academies enter the AIL in their own right and play week in, week out. This would have the effect of giving them better game time together and exposing them to genuine match experience as a unit and their coaches to other players in the leagues.

The Lost Sheep

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

A lot of questions there, but I'll endeavour to answer them all. Bear in mind that this is something I've thought about for a while and have discussed with current AIL players who know the ins and outs of the academies and know academy players, provincial players and capped internationals. I'm not name dropping, I'm just trying to give a bit of background and demonstrate that this idea has been discussed at length and balanced/tweaked by the experience these guys have had.

1. There isn't the talent: We actually don't know this for a fact. We *do* know that players develop at different ages and that injuries at a crucial time can completely end a player's chances. There's actually a small enough 'window' of opportunity for a player to be picked up as a prospect. Often it's as young as 15 or 16. Leinster have something like 40 schools (never mind clubs) playing rugby in the province. To say that there couldn't be more than eight or nine prospects from that sized pool in a single year beggars belief.

2. There isn't enough room for them in the provinces: This is true... ish. At the same time, a quick run around the provinces tells us that all of them are short in certain positions. Leinster are tight at 9 and second row. Ulster need back rows, Connacht also at back row and are relying on imports. Munster need a 9 and 10 at least. Expanding the academies will lead to oversupply, but it's far better to be looking at them than looking for them. As ibf says, the championship needs players, but that's another story.

3. Not enough matches: Have a quick look at the academy pages and tot up the game time (B+I and Interpro) these guys get. It's miniscule. Many of them have 0 caps at any level which means they are playing AIL when they can. I believe that they need to be playing more regularly and with their academy team mates instead of broken up and all over the AIL. The idea is that academies enter the AIL in their own right and play week in, week out. This would have the effect of giving them better game time together and exposing them to genuine match experience as a unit and their coaches to other players in the leagues.

There isn't the talent for the doubling in size of the academies. There isn't any demand from the coaches in the academy system to double the number of players in the academy. I know enough from talking to current AIL players as well about system.
Leinster and all the provinces are not going to pick so many more players as that isn't worthwhile for them.
There is shortages in some positions across all the provinces but you cant add players to the academies if the talent isnt there.
The players within the academies get loads of game time. Most in the academies are under 19/20 and for September will be playing interprovincial rugby. They will also play a lot of AIL. The clubs don't want academies playing in their own right in the AIL and the players in academies will be playing British and Irish Cup for A teams as well as other A games through the season. Academy players generally all are playing in 1/2 clubs per province. In Leinster a lot of academy players are with UCD, In Munster theyre with Cork Con, Shannon etc. In Ulster Queens Belfast

Bridge93

I would've thought the sub academies do a reasonable job of screening extra players without putting them into the academy

CMOTDibbler

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

There isn't the talent for the doubling in size of the academies. There isn't any demand from the coaches in the academy system to double the number of players in the academy. I know enough from talking to current AIL players as well about system.
Leinster and all the provinces are not going to pick so many more players as that isn't worthwhile for them.
There is shortages in some positions across all the provinces but you cant add players to the academies if the talent isnt there.

And I dispute that strongly. We're talking about 200 players countrywide against 100. Over three years.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The players within the academies get loads of game time. Most in the academies are under 19/20 and for September will be playing interprovincial rugby. They will also play a lot of AIL. The clubs don't want academies playing in their own right in the AIL and the players in academies will be playing British and Irish Cup for A teams as well as other A games through the season. Academy players generally all are playing in 1/2 clubs per province. In Leinster a lot of academy players are with UCD, In Munster theyre with Cork Con, Shannon etc. In Ulster Queens Belfast

The actual experience is that they are often held back by the academies for training or to prevent injury. Many of them spend weeks without a match because they are backup to backups at the provinces.

The guys I'm talking to (from two different provinces) are saying the same thing. They have academy players supposedly playing for them but rarely see them on the pitch. The clubs end up working around them since they can't be guaranteed to be available when needed and rarely attend training. It would suit everyone if they formed their own teams.

There have been endless discussions on the various provincial threads here about players that are needed to be bought in. The money spent on those imports would be far better spent in the academies. Even one import would cover the academy expansion I'm talking about. I haven't even touched on the benefit it would have in developing coaches.

As for B+I cup and A caps? The current Munster Academy boasts 93 caps between 24 players.

Bridge93 wrote: »

I would've thought the sub academies do a reasonable job of screening extra players without putting them into the academy

The sub-academies are limbo for promising rugby players. They exist in a twilight zone of hope and desperation.

The Lost Sheep

Bridge93 wrote: »

I would've thought the sub academies do a reasonable job of screening extra players without putting them into the academy

Yep and no reason for the change. We need to improve the levels below the academy like the club system and the always troublesome 17-21 age grades before doing nonsensical things like doubling the size of the academies needlessly.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

And I dispute that strongly. We're talking about 200 players countrywide against 100. Over three years.

The actual experience is that they are often held back by the academies for training or to prevent injury. Many of them spend weeks without a match because they are backup to backups at the provinces.

The guys I'm talking to (from two different provinces) are saying the same thing. They have academy players supposedly playing for them but rarely see them on the pitch. The clubs end up working around them since they can't be guaranteed to be available when needed and rarely attend training. It would suit everyone if they formed their own teams.

There have been endless discussions on the various provincial threads here about players that are needed to be bought in. The money spent on those imports would be far better spent in the academies. Even one import would cover the academy expansion I'm talking about. I haven't even touched on the benefit it would have in developing coaches.

As for B+I cup and A caps? The current Munster Academy boasts 93 caps between 24 players.

Players need to be brought through but there isn't the player depth for doubling the academies. The money isn't there to do it and it is better spent keeping the academies the same size and working more on the grassroots and then in time if we need to expand the academies do so. But that time is not now.
The academies are how old? There hasn't been any real need or desire for such expansion as it doesn't benefit the provinces in the way you think it would.

CMOTDibbler

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Yep and no reason for the change. We need to improve the levels below the academy like the club system and the always troublesome 17-21 age grades before doing nonsensical things like doubling the size of the academies needlessly.

There is a clear need. You admitted it yourself that we're short of players.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Players need to be brought through but there isn't the player depth for doubling the academies. The money isn't there to do it and it is better spent keeping the academies the same size and working more on the grassroots and then in time if we need to expand the academies do so. But that time is not now.

How do you know there isn't the player depth? Two players in the Connacht squad came straight from AIL. So did Fanning and Dundon for Leinster. James Hart is playing in Grenoble after being dropped from the Leinster sub-academy. Do I need to dredge up name after name of players that never got on to the academy A train and went elsewhere?

One foreign import would pay for it all.

The Lost Sheep

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

There is a clear need. You admitted it yourself that we're short of players.

We(all provinces are short of players) but there is no need to double the size of the academies as the player depth isn't there for the academies to increase by such.
The provinces pick 8-10 a year and hope some may go on to be regular pros and play a lot in pro12 and then some go on to be internationals etc. Increasing the size of the academies isn't required as it would have been done if the coaching systems believed they would have to do it

How do you know there isn't the player depth? Two players in the Connacht squad came straight from AIL. So did Fanning and Dundon for Leinster. James Hart is playing in Grenoble after being dropped from the Leinster sub-academy. Do I need to dredge up name after name of players that never got on to the academy A train and went elsewhere?

One foreign import would pay for it all.

Because the coaches would say it. The standards are not there. There is plenty more than those you mention who have came straight from AIL and not been in an academy and went into a professional contract but that doesn't mean the academies need to be bigger. That players come through to a pro contract from the AIL and not having been in an academy is good and shows the strengths of the system we have and that we are getting as much out of it as we can. We need to fix the levels below the academy and help the clubs(youths) and schools and have it that no kid must have to(or feel they must have to) move school, and in many areas that means a fee paying school, to increase their chances of getting a pro contract

errlloyd

Buer wrote: »

McGinty played AIL. No province was interested at the time. He's 25 now and a back up at Connacht. Definitely not one that got away at this time.

I wasn't really saying he was a great loss. More saying that he's a competent professional who obviously didn't look like he was going to make it as as teenager. He would presumably be a better player now if he'd had the academy contract, at least a few players who did get the academy contract have since left pro rugby.

Hagz

Fergus McFadden has been cited for trampling on Nathan White's face. Having seen it I expect he'll receive a ban.

AbusesToilets

Deservedly so by the looks of it.

CatFromHue

Hagz wrote: »

Fergus McFadden has been cited for trampling on Nathan White's face. Having seen it I expect he'll receive a ban.

wp_rathead linked it in the game thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98275414&postcount=527

it was definite reckless

don't get me started on the guy filming in portrait either!!