Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

CatFromHue

I wonder how it would have worked out for MOC if he had Sexton and Nacewa when he was here and also Jennings fit.

The Rape of Lucretia

CatFromHue wrote: »

I wonder how it would have worked out for MOC if he had Sexton and Nacewa when he was here and also Jennings fit.

Mid-table mediocrity.

The style of rugby is far better this year and all players seem more purposeful. And thats not just the 9 wins talking. It was quite clear even in the first couple of games of the season.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

CatFromHue wrote: »

I wonder how it would have worked out for MOC if he had Sexton and Nacewa when he was here and also Jennings fit.

I don't think the players at his disposal was the problem.

CatFromHue

I think it was one of the problems, some of the teams we put out under here were very weak/inexperienced by Leinster standards. They also lacked the creativity and leadership that Sexton, Nacewa brought and Jennings and McLaughlin were mostly injured too.

Neil3030

CatFromHue wrote: »

I wonder how it would have worked out for MOC if he had Sexton and Nacewa when he was here and also Jennings fit.

The more interesting question for me would be what would have happened if MOC had Girv as backs coach and Kurt on defence. They are the two key men in Leinster at the moment imo.

The Rape of Lucretia

Neil3030 wrote: »

The more interesting question for me would be what would have happened if MOC had Girv as backs coach and Kurt on defence. They are the two key men in Leinster at the moment imo.

Give me enough quality assistants and I could be the best coach in the world without moving off the couch here.

hogandrew

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Mid-table mediocrity.

The style of rugby is far better this year and all players seem more purposeful. And thats not just the 9 wins talking. It was quite clear even in the first couple of games of the season.

There's some players who just look to have come on so much this season. The likes of furlong or Moore u could put down to more game time but mike McCarthy looks a different player this season. I know Strauss had health problems but he has pushed forward a lot.

The amount of young lads who have had really good breakthroughs this season is super too. Marsh at the start of the season was very good, McGrath playing well, Tracy looks to be almost pushing for a bench spot then obviously vdf and ringrose with the likes of Byrne, kelleher, McCarthy etc getting game time too and almost everyone slotting in so seamlessly. There's obviously very good direction being given to players

Neil3030

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Give me enough quality assistants and I could be the best coach in the world without moving off the couch here.

It's not as easy as that. Players need to respect you and want to play for you. Until I hear concrete reports that the players didn't like MOC, I will take the many other reports of them respecting him as a HC at face value, and further wonder what he could have done with a superior backroom staff.

vienne86

CatFromHue wrote: »

I wonder how it would have worked out for MOC if he had Sexton and Nacewa when he was here and also Jennings fit.

I might be wrong, but I feel the guys are working harder for each other this season. I feel that the whole way things are being organised on and off the pitch might be quite different this season.

aimee1

vienne86 wrote: »

I might be wrong, but I feel the guys are working harder for each other this season. I feel that the whole way things are being organised on and off the pitch might be quite different this season.

they look far more organised and not just because sexton is there. there is also far more purpose to the play. its far from perfect but they are getting a lot of stuff right. Given the conditions of the last 2 games they have done very well to grind out two good wins.

Zzippy

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think it was one of the problems, some of the teams we put out under here were very weak/inexperienced by Leinster standards. They also lacked the creativity and leadership that Sexton, Nacewa brought and Jennings and McLaughlin were mostly injured too.

Nonsense, MOC was a visionary. If Leo Cullen had half his nous and played Darragh Fanning this season Leinster would be 11 from 11. Scratch that, it's Fanj, they'd be 12 from 11! :pac:

molloyjh

Neil3030 wrote: »

It's not as easy as that. Players need to respect you and want to play for you. Until I hear concrete reports that the players didn't like MOC, I will take the many other reports of them respecting him as a HC at face value, and further wonder what he could have done with a superior backroom staff.

All true, but they also need to know who is boss. There seemed to have been issues with the last bit from what we've heard.

Neil3030

molloyjh wrote: »

All true, but they also need to know who is boss. There seemed to have been issues with the last bit from what we've heard.

Has any Leinster player been directly quoted on this yet? I'm agnostic on this btw, not looking to resurrect the MOC vs. ABMOC episode!

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Neil3030 wrote: »

Has any Leinster player been directly quoted on this yet? I'm agnostic on this btw, not looking to resurrect the MOC vs. ABMOC episode!

The only quote I've seen, and I can't even remember who said it, but it was something about training being very unstructured. Sometimes it would start late, or they wouldn't do very much.
I kind of get the impression that MoC was trying to have a more relaxed approach than Schmidt had had before him, but it just didn't work at Leinster. I think anyone was going to have a difficult time coming in somewhere that had such a strong stamp of someone else on it. If that makes sense?

hogandrew

Neil3030 wrote: »

Has any Leinster player been directly quoted on this yet? I'm agnostic on this btw, not looking to resurrect the MOC vs. ABMOC episode!

MOC didn't work out but I think it would show a real lack of class for any player to try damage his reputation for no reason if there were problems

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

It's not as easy as that. Players need to respect you and want to play for you. Until I hear concrete reports that the players didn't like MOC, I will take the many other reports of them respecting him as a HC at face value, and further wonder what he could have done with a superior backroom staff.

He WAS our backs coach, lets remember. Whatever about not having Kurt, which is a very fair point, he should have been covering Girv's contribution, just as Leo is now covering Leo's contribution.

It does look like the culture has changed. Nacewa and Sexton are massive in that regard. Horgan on Sky tonight described Sexton as a "culture builder" and also like having another coach in the setup (also described Joe and Sexton as "joined at the hip"!) and Nacewa just came back from being a full time mental skills coach. Obviously MOC wasn't able to build that culture in his time here (and maybe is not capable of that, at Leicester I know the culture is very much defined by the ex-players they have coaching like Murphy/Burke/Snout) which was probably his downfall.

He also had a rookie forwards coach lets not forget, and so there were a lot of problems there as well, it was difficult for a whole host of reasons. He also had a major injury problem and clearly became very frustrated when he finally had guys fit and they were unavailable for IRFU reasons.

The way our half backs were managed were his biggest failling IMO, as I said repeatedly at the time. And the same problem was evident in Leicester when he didn't get the most out of a Youngs/Flood pairing. But there's no doubt, beyond his strengths and weaknesses, he had far far less at his disposal than Leo has had this season. Seeing as the past is the past, that should be regarded as a positive thing for Leinster fans going forward.

molloyjh

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

The only quote I've seen, and I can't even remember who said it, but it was something about training being very unstructured. Sometimes it would start late, or they wouldn't do very much.
I kind of get the impression that MoC was trying to have a more relaxed approach than Schmidt had had before him, but it just didn't work at Leinster. I think anyone was going to have a difficult time coming in somewhere that had such a strong stamp of someone else on it. If that makes sense?

That was a reporter that mentioned that. I think whoever it was (one of the 42 guys IIRC) was making the point that journos would often be left waiting as training ran over or because it started late.

Drico mentioned something about training being more relaxed and I think it was him that also said that mistakes pointed out in reviews were a chance to have a laugh over them.

Add to that the fact that we often heard about how nice a guy he was but rarely heard about him being a hard task master, which is completely different from Joe and Cheiks who the players were almost afraid of, would lead me to believe he was the nice guy boss.

EDIT: Didn't Jenno say something in one of his articles about how Leinster needed a tougher man at the helm too after MOC was let go?

errlloyd

Great result for leinster in the end, and I'd say all the Irish provinces will be reasonably happy ospreys momentum has been briefly halted. The game still wasn't brilliant. We destroyed them in the kicking game and that was basically it.

Our three tries were all beautiful in different ways though.

Interested Observer

errlloyd wrote: »

Great result for leinster in the end, and I'd say all the Irish provinces will be reasonably happy ospreys momentum has been briefly halted. The game still wasn't brilliant. We destroyed them in the kicking game and that was basically it.

Our three tries were all beautiful in different ways though.

It was belting rain for the whole match, I think under those circumstances Leinster did pretty well. Agree on the tries, all excellent.

swiwi_

Well, after this weekend's action, it strikes me that followers of this thread might be feeling "Irish by birth, Leinster by the grace of God".

We're at the point that the Leinster pack is just about by default the Irish pack, which is nice for Leinster but in the grand scheme of Irish rugby a bit disconcerting.

Anyway, Dave Kearney fired a nice shot across the bows of his critics (mea culpa), and if he can show this form at European level next weekend, the pressure will really ramp up on his rivals.

The Pheasant2

Lads what are we going to do with the front row during the 6N when we could potentially be losing Healy, McGrath, Strauss, Cronin, Moore, Ross and Furlong?

When is Mick Kearney due back? McCarthy and Toner are certs to be called up too.

Our backrow reserves will be raided too - thankfully our stores are plentiful and we could still likely field an okay BR of Ryan, VdF, Jordi (when is Conan back?)

The Pheasant2

Dooley
Tracy
Bent
Denton
Molony
Ryan
VdF
Jordi

Dundon? Is he still in contract? Is Byrne fit?
Byrne?
Thornbury? (He may be injured afaik)
Leavy

Interested Observer

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Lads what are we going to do with the front row during the 6N when we could potentially be losing Healy, McGrath, Strauss, Cronin, Moore, Ross and Furlong?

When is Mick Kearney due back? McCarthy and Toner are certs to be called up too.

Our backrow reserves will be raided too - thankfully our stores are plentiful and we could still likely field an okay BR of Ryan, VdF, Jordi (when is Conan back?)

Leinster won't lose all those players, why would third choice Ireland players not be available? I'd say one of the hookers and THs will be with Leinster.

The Rape of Lucretia

swiwi_ wrote: »

We're at the point that the Leinster pack is just about by default the Irish pack, which is nice for Leinster but in the grand scheme of Irish rugby a bit disconcerting.

There was a (successful ish) time when Munster 1-10 was virtually the Irish 1-10.

Disconcerting though in the sense that Munster doesnt seem to be finding players. Our pool is small enough.

Then again, Ulster went through the same fallow period when they were only supplying 1 or 2 players to the starting 15. I think there were teams that had none when Bowe was in Wales.

Maybe its just the natural cycle of things (traumatic as it is for our Munster cousins to accept at the moment).

CMOTDibbler

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Dooley
Tracy
Bent
Denton
Molony
Ryan
VdF
Jordi

Dundon? Is he still in contract? Is Byrne fit?
Byrne?
Thornbury? (He may be injured afaik)
Leavy

Dundon is still in the squad. He's 33 (turning 34 in June). He hasn't played since the end of October. Thornbury is injured (out for about 12 weeks I think). Most of these guys haven't played since the internationals came back.

Bazzo

Interested Observer wrote: »

Leinster won't lose all those players, why would third choice Ireland players not be available? I'd say one of the hookers and THs will be with Leinster.

Yeah it's not like the world cup where a squad was abroad. Presumably players not in the 23 will be available

Interested Observer

Bazzo wrote: »

Yeah it's not like the world cup where a squad was abroad. Presumably players not in the 23 will be available

On the off-weeks they even allow the subs to return to the provinces to play. None of the guys who are in the first XV (so McGrath, Moore OR Ross, Toner, Ruddock, SOB, Heaslip, Sexton, Kearney, probably Fitz) will be around at all but everyone else should be available at various points.

molloyjh

swiwi_ wrote: »

We're at the point that the Leinster pack is just about by default the Irish pack, which is nice for Leinster but in the grand scheme of Irish rugby a bit disconcerting.

In a way it's great for Leinster but in another way it's bad. Our place in the Pro12 is crucial this season as (a) it's the only thing left to play for and (b) it defines our pool in Europe for next season. Being continually stripped of so many players is a really bad thing from that perspective. Losing so many to the RWC is one of the reasons we're out of Europe too.

Things won't be as bad as they were during the RWC as players will be able to float between camps, but we'll still be hit hard.

Interested Observer

Fixtures during the 6N period, the bolded are 6N weekends:

29th Jan - Dragons (A)
12th Feb - Zebre (H)
20th Feb - Cardiff (A)
28th Feb - Zebre (A)
5th March - Ospreys (H)
18th March - Glasgow (A)

The Dragons game obviously isn't during the 6N but I'm assuming the squad will be in camp at that point so some (all?) internationals not available. Leinster should be beating the Dragons and Zebre twice imo. Cardiff are a bit of a shambles so I think we should win that one too. Home to Ospreys, again I would back Leinster. I don't think there's ever an expectation of winning in Glasgow but they'll also be missing a heap of players so who knows. It really is not that bad a set of fixtures for the period imo, and for the non-6N weekends I would hope all the subs and extended squad members would be available so Leinster should be able to field a decent side for those ones.

CMOTDibbler

molloyjh wrote: »

In a way it's great for Leinster but in another way it's bad. Our place in the Pro12 is crucial this season as (a) it's the only thing left to play for and (b) it defines our pool in Europe for next season. Being continually stripped of so many players is a really bad thing from that perspective. Losing so many to the RWC is one of the reasons we're out of Europe too.

Things won't be as bad as they were during the RWC as players will be able to float between camps, but we'll still be hit hard.

This.

It's going to be 20+ players again from Leinster and although we should see a few more from Connacht and Ulster, the pack suffers disproportionally.