Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

jacothelad

pickarooney wrote: »

McIlroy mostly earns dollars though.

Yes, and he hangs on to all of them - sadly. No I wonder if Ulster named a part of the ground after him.........:D

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jacothelad wrote: »

Yes, and he hangs on to all of them - sadly. No I wonder if Ulster named a part of the ground after him.........:D

Wasn't he at a Leinster game the other week? They've gone and poached him too!

Interested Observer

Massive blow for Leinster that Moore is off. Are there any other promising THs in the academy?

Neil3030

Unless the IRFU wise up with contract offers, we will soon be the Belgium (in soccer terms) of rugby. Excellent development of players who leave for big money deals in France and England. Our national side would remain strong, but you can forget about the provinces being seriously competitive in Europe.

But this will only last so long, as there would be one major difference; Belgian soccer clubs are at least incentivised by cashflow to develop talent, as they recoup transfer fees when players leave. Provincial academies in Irish rugby are incentivised purely by asset acquisition, i.e., their return comes first in the players' performances, which then indirectly create cashflow through gate receipts/merchandise and all the other avenues of income created by a strong team. When a player leaves early in their career (Moore, JJ, to a lesser extent Madigan) the investment makes a loss, and if the performances continue to weaken and European competitiveness continues to erode (i.e. causing less gate receipts), the cashflow will dry up and there is only so long provinces could sustain the cost of player development.

And if the provinces stop developing players, we would become the Ireland (in soccer terms) of rugby; decent young talent needing to leave the country to receive elite development. Are we happy with that? IRFU, are you happy with that?

Zzippy

Neil3030 wrote: »

Unless the IRFU wise up with contract offers, we will soon be the Belgium (in soccer terms) of rugby.

No. 1 ranked team in the world? I'll take that! :P

shuffol

Timothy Bryce wrote: »

I'd have both feet in the .ak camp on Moore. I believe he's regressed a huge amount since his recent spell on the sideline. He's also about 2-3 stone overweight and is fairly sluggish around the park.

He still makes a lot of tackles for a TH and he's an excellent tackler too, very agile much like Gethin Jenkins, he creates a lot of turnover opportunities for others by hitting low and getting guys to ground quickly.

I don't blame him for wanting to move on, it's looked like he's fallen behind Furlong in the last few weeks who is a super prospect anyway. The issue is that with Ross getting a new 1 year deal it may mean that he falls to 3rd choice which is tough for a guy of his ability. I think he's performed at least as well as Ross when given an opportunity but with Ross around he has to play as he's especially a player who needs to be playing regularly.

It's just a pity that he can't be kept in the country given the dearth of TH's but I imagine Wasps are offering him a huge amount of money. That along with a 3 year deal given his injury problems must be very hard to turn down.

former total

Why do people think Moore has fallen behind Furlong?

LostArt

former total wrote: »

Why do people think Moore has fallen behind Furlong?

Bit miffed by this myself, his performance weren't great at the start of the season but he's been going well for a good while now

thomond2006

What is Jack O'Connell's contract situation with Bristol? I couldn't find online how many years he signed for. He might be a player to target if Moore leaves.

Stainalert

thomond2006 wrote: »

What is Jack O'Connell's contract situation with Bristol? I couldn't find online how many years he signed for. He might be a player to target if Moore leaves.

He's a loosehead

The Lost Sheep

thomond2006 wrote: »

What is Jack O'Connell's contract situation with Bristol? I couldn't find online how many years he signed for. He might be a player to target if Moore leaves.

He signed originally for 2 seasons so that's up at end of this season. Don't know how he's done etc and if he'll get another contract...

molloyjh

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Have to disagree with that. If Leinster have the top two THs in Ireland then when the autumn internationals and 6 Nations come round, they're down to their third and fourth choice THs.

It's better for Leinster and Ireland if the top four THs in the country are playing for the four provinces.

It depends on who the 3rd and 4th choice are. But it should be remembered that other teams are down players then too so it's not as keenly felt, plus the games are at Pro12 level then as well. For example if the 3rd choice is fine for those periods in the Pro12 but isn't up to it in the Champions Cup then moving the 2nd TH elsewhere is bad for Leinster.

Zzippy wrote: »

100% agree with Yeah_Right. Also for the fact that having 2 international players in the same position at one province means one or the other is not getting as much experience/gametime, and therefore developing, as they would if they were first choice at another team. It might be great for Leinster to have such depth, but it's not ideal for Ireland.

In most other positions I'd agree, but the nature of the front row where guys get 30 mins or so off the bench every week makes it somewhat different. Two internationals can quite successfully rotate within the one position. And with the player welfare system both can get fairly even game time over the course of the season.

We've already seen that happen at Leinster over the last few years across the front row. Last season Marty Moore missed 12 weeks to injury yet still clocked up 549 mins next to Ross' 729. Now admittedly that covered the AIs, but you're still talking 4 or so games to make up the other 180 mins. Based on his game time when he was fit he'd easily have made that up. Strauss had a number of injuries throughout the season and still clocked up 877 mins to Cronins 1,177. It's harder to make direct comparisons at LH given Healys injury woes but we saw it a few years back between himself and VDM too.

As long as the players are managed in such a way that they are getting the requisite game time then there is no issue at national level. And I don't think we can say that any of the guys that fall into that bracket have been getting less than they need.

molloyjh

Neil3030 wrote: »

Unless the IRFU wise up with contract offers, we will soon be the Belgium (in soccer terms) of rugby. Excellent development of players who leave for big money deals in France and England. Our national side would remain strong, but you can forget about the provinces being seriously competitive in Europe.

But this will only last so long, as there would be one major difference; Belgian soccer clubs are at least incentivised by cashflow to develop talent, as they recoup transfer fees when players leave. Provincial academies in Irish rugby are incentivised purely by asset acquisition, i.e., their return comes first in the players' performances, which then indirectly create cashflow through gate receipts/merchandise and all the other avenues of income created by a strong team. When a player leaves early in their career (Moore, JJ, to a lesser extent Madigan) the investment makes a loss, and if the performances continue to weaken and European competitiveness continues to erode (i.e. causing less gate receipts), the cashflow will dry up and there is only so long provinces could sustain the cost of player development.

And if the provinces stop developing players, we would become the Ireland (in soccer terms) of rugby; decent young talent needing to leave the country to receive elite development. Are we happy with that? IRFU, are you happy with that?

Well we need to remember that this is still just a rumour. And even at that the rumour is that he hasn't signed with anyone but is closer to signing for Wasps. So let's hold off on the "this is the beginning of the end" stuff for now until we see where this goes.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Well we need to remember that this is still just a rumour. And even at that the rumour is that he hasn't signed with anyone but is closer to signing for Wasps. So let's hold off on the "this is the beginning of the end" stuff for now until we see where this goes.

I am led to believe it is signed, sealed and delivered.

Zzippy

molloyjh wrote: »

In most other positions I'd agree, but the nature of the front row where guys get 30 mins or so off the bench every week makes it somewhat different.

Fair point. So you'd agree the proposed Henshaw move is a bad idea with Ringrose in situ...?

thomond2006

Stainalert wrote: »

He's a loosehead

Oops, my bad.

molloyjh

Zzippy wrote: »

Fair point. So you'd agree the proposed Henshaw move is a bad idea with Ringrose in situ...?

Ah-ha, I actually have you there. Henshaw is coming to play at 12 to free Fitz up for the wing and Ringrose can then slot in a 13.

Zzippy

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah-ha, I actually have you there. Henshaw is coming to play at 12 to free Fitz up for the wing and Ringrose can then slot in a 13.

Why would you waste Henshaw at 12? Anyway DK > Fitz...

Also, for Irish rugby, with McCloskey looking like the future at 12, Henshaw needs to be playing 13 as that's where he'll be playing for Ireland.

molloyjh

Zzippy wrote: »

Why would you waste Henshaw at 12? Anyway DK > Fitz...

Also, for Irish rugby, with McCloskey looking like the future at 12, Henshaw needs to be playing 13 as that's where he'll be playing for Ireland.

No worries, Dave will be at 14 as Isa will have moved on to a coaching role.

Give me some time with that second one. I'll come up with a witty retort....honest....

Journeyman_1

Zzippy wrote: »

Why would you waste Henshaw at 12? Anyway DK > Fitz...

Also, for Irish rugby, with McCloskey looking like the future at 12, Henshaw needs to be playing 13 as that's where he'll be playing for Ireland.

I think you'll find that Jersey filled by a once of MotM recipient in a RWC warm-up game. Henshaw won't get past him!

Zzippy

Journeyman_1 wrote: »

I think you'll find that Jersey filled by a once of MotM recipient in a RWC warm-up game. Henshaw won't get past him!

Leinster have signed Keith Earls? :eek:

aimee1

Zzippy wrote: »

Leinster have signed Keith Earls? :eek:

B&I cup team needed a utility back to cover for Fanj.

Zzippy

aimee1 wrote: »

B&I cup team needed a utility back to cover for Fanj.

Fanj too good for B&I Cup. Go wash your mouth out with soap and water!

Journeyman_1

Zzippy wrote: »

Henshaw needs to be playing 13 as that's where he'll be playing for Ireland.

This is what I was replying too

WarZ

Please god no Keith Earls to Leinster

shuffol

former total wrote: »

Why do people think Moore has fallen behind Furlong?

I may be wrong but since the injury to Ross hasn't Furlong had more starts

Journeyman_1

shuffol wrote: »

I may be wrong but since the injury to Ross hasn't Furlong had more starts

Before Ross' injury I think it was himself and Moore in the 23 mostly. Since then, i think Moore and Furlong have shared starts with Moore being slightly ahead, I could be wrong here though there has been a lot of rotation.

.ak

Does anyone believe Moore is actually going? I don't.

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

Does anyone believe Moore is actually going? I don't.

From what I've heard Leinster are a long long way away from matching Wasps' offer and it's all over bar the shouting.

No idea why we wouldn't be moving Moore onto an international contract unless he's got some sort of injury issue we don't know about.

Ross is moving back to a provincial contract, does that mean we'll have no centrally contracted tightheads?

CatFromHue

.ak wrote: »

Does anyone believe Moore is actually going? I don't.

We tend to mock alot of these reports but alot of them end up being true at the time. Fitzgerald to Munster was one we rubbished but it turns out he was keen on moving down there.