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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

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    #1052
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    awec wrote: »
    Your group was easy compared to everyone else. There's no point pretending otherwise, Leinster had a very favourable draw.

    I literally said it wasn't as strong as some of the other pools. Those were literally the words I typed in my post...


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    #1053
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,832 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Hagz wrote: »
    I literally said it wasn't as strong as some of the other pools. Those were literally the words I typed in my post...

    Right, but you were arguing against the idea it was easy.

    It was an easy group.


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    #1054
    KeithWoodshead
    Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭KeithWoodshead


    awec wrote: »
    Your group was easy compared to everyone else. There's no point pretending otherwise, Leinster had a very favourable draw.

    And Bath at home is pretty much as good as you could have asked for.


    This


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    #1055
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,832 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Completely disagree. The best teams will invariably win the competition out, whether it's a league or cup. Leinster are at least in the top 5/6 Euro teams imo on the basis of reaching the EC semi.

    No. Edinburgh reached it a few years ago ffs. Munster got there two seasons in a row and definitely aren't one of the best sides.

    Knockout competitions indicate nothing. Too much luck of the draw involved.

    Leinster aren't one of the best teams in Europe cause they beat a few average teams and were fortunate to avoid all the big guns.


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    #1056
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    awec wrote: »
    No. Edinburgh reached it a few years ago ffs. Munster got there two seasons in a row and definitely aren't one of the best sides.

    Knockout competitions indicate nothing. Too much luck of the draw involved.


    Munster were there or thereabouts. Top 3 now: (it's just not a coincidence that they've reached the semis 3 years in a row).

    Toulon
    Clermont
    Sarries


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    #1057
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    awec wrote: »
    Right, but you were arguing against the idea it was easy.

    It was an easy group.

    Saying a pool is easier than the other pools is different to saying the pool was easy. I never argued against the idea that Leinster's pool was easier than some of the other pools in the competition. I argued against the statement that it was an easy pool. Saying a pool is easy implies that it requires little effort to top it. Saying it requires little effort to top a pool containing Harlequins, Castres and Wasps is rubbish. I don't care what way it's spun.

    I never 'pretended' that Leinster's pool wasn't easy compared everyone else awec.


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    #1058
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    awec wrote: »
    No. Edinburgh reached it a few years ago ffs. Munster got there two seasons in a row and definitely aren't one of the best sides.

    Knockout competitions indicate nothing. Too much luck of the draw involved.

    Leinster aren't one of the best teams in Europe cause they beat a few average teams and were fortunate to avoid all the big guns.

    To add to that, they were in the easiest group of the six and only won six out of 22 league matches. Flash, pan.


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    #1059
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,832 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Munster were there or thereabouts. Top 3 now: (it's just not a coincidence that they've reached the semis 3 years in a row).

    Toulon
    Clermont
    Sarries

    No they weren't ffs.


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    #1060
    Big Nelly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,613 ✭✭✭Big Nelly


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Every word of it.

    Talking about easy groups :rolleyes:, = loser talk.

    Im sure it was Drico said Leinsters group was easy on one of the podcasts:P


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    #1061
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,832 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Ulster weren't the second best side in 2012 either for example. We got fortunate in our knockout draws, the semi especially.

    We wouldn't have beaten Clermont in France. A fortunate draw made things a lot easier for us.


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    #1062
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Last year, Munster had a pool of:

    Edinburgh (at best mid-table Pro12)
    Gloucester (at best mid-table Premiership)
    Perpignan (relegated from the Top14)

    Given the luck of the pools, QF seedings and SF draws, you need a few years of consistency in order to say you're the top of Europe. Toulon are there right now, Leinster were there between 2009-2012. However Toulon have been fortunate with the pool draws as well.

    One good thing about the new seeding system is you are punished for having a bad league season even if you do well in Europe, Leinster being a good current example.


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    #1063
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    awec wrote: »
    No they weren't ffs.

    Kilkenny progess in the hurling, Kerry in the football, R Madrid & Barca in soccer, Toulon, Clermont in rugby. The trend here is: the best teams are progressing at the expense of inferior teams, thus proving that knockout is indeed an indicator of the best teams.


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    #1064
    KeithWoodshead
    Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭KeithWoodshead


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Kilkenny progess in the hurling, Kerry in the football, R Madrid & Barca in soccer, Toulon, Clermont in rugby. The trend here is: the best teams are progressing at the expense of inferior teams, thus proving that knockout is indeed an indicator of the best teams.

    "thus proving"

    I don't think you can prove a subjective opinion. Especially one so poorly backed up


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    #1065
    ssaye2
    Registered Users Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭ssaye2


    Loving how all other fans are filling the leinster thread. Even mods for and against. We don't want your pity
    .... Runs off to cry


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    #1066
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Big Nelly wrote: »
    Im sure it was Drico said Leinsters group was easy on one of the podcasts:P

    The competition is too competitive now for easy groups. It may not have been as difficult as Ulster/Munster groups, but they did well to get out of it.
    For instance, Wasps have since proven they are no pushovers. Castres away is never easy and Quins are also a good team.


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    #1067
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    ssaye2 wrote: »
    Loving how all other fans are filling the leinster thread. Even mods for and against. We don't want your pity
    .... Runs off to cry

    I have to admit, I laughed at this! :D


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    #1068
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,462 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Results aside, I struggle to understand how anyone can claim that the coaching hasn't been poor. Defensive structures has regressed. You can argue injuries and call ups have disrupted but the players are all learning the same system and it's borne rotten fruit. Likewise, ball skills look terrible. These are things I would lay at the feet of MOC. Game plan execution is on the players, but the foundation has not been built to allow them to succeed imo.


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    #1069
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,832 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Kilkenny progess in the hurling, Kerry in the football, R Madrid & Barca in soccer, Toulon, Clermont in rugby. The trend here is: the best teams are progressing at the expense of inferior teams, thus proving that knockout is indeed an indicator of the best teams.

    Of course if you look at it over a long period of time you can draw some conclusions for goodness sake. That's not what's being discussed here.

    Honestly, the idea of looking at a year or two in isolation as an indicator of a teams quality is total nonsense. Are you telling me that Edinburgh were one of the 4 best teams in European rugby in 2012?


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    #1070
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    awec wrote: »
    Of course if you look at it over a long period of time you can draw some conclusions for goodness sake. That's not what's being discussed here.

    Honestly, the idea of looking at a year or two in isolation as an indicator of a teams quality is total nonsense. Are you telling me that Edinburgh were one of the 4 best teams in European rugby in 2012?

    You are searching for the exception rather than the rule.


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    #1071
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Rightwing wrote: »
    The competition is too competitive now for easy groups. It may not have been as difficult as Ulster/Munster groups, but they did well to get out of it.
    For instance, Wasps have since proven they are no pushovers. Castres away is never easy and Quins are also a good team.

    Castres have won 8 from 14 at home this season. 57% win rate. Hardly never easy.

    http://www.castres-olympique.com/equipe/calendrier.php


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    #1072
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,832 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Rightwing wrote: »
    You are searching for the exception rather than the rule.

    No I'm not. Do you know how knockout competitions are usually spoken about with that magic of the cup line?

    What do you think that refers to?

    By any chance do you think that could be a reference to the fact that the best teams don't necessarily progress and the format allows for lesser teams to beat the better teams and knock them out. There is no requirement to be consistently better like there is in a league.

    You said you can look at the knockouts as an indicator of the best teams about in any particular season . That's total rubbish.


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    #1073
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,832 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Also the competition is seeded based on league position and not previous European progress. Why do you think that is?


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    #1074
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    awec wrote: »
    No I'm not. Do you know how knockout competitions are usually spoken about with that magic of the cup line?

    What do you think that refers to?

    By any chance do you think that could be a reference to the fact that the best teams don't necessarily progress and the format allows for lesser teams to beat the better teams and knock them out. There is no requirement to be consistently better like there is in a league.

    You said you can look at the knockouts as an indicator of the best teams about in any particular season . That's total rubbish.

    But the Euro combines both league format and knockout. This is why it's a clear indicator of the top teams. Cleverly designed to allow this happen.


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    #1075
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    cutcaster-photo-100174533-Turn-Back-Now-Road-Sign.jpg


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    #1076
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,832 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Rightwing wrote: »
    But the Euro combines both league format and knockout. This is why it's a clear indicator of the top teams. Cleverly designed to allow this happen.

    I give up. :(


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    #1077
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    awec wrote: »
    I give up. :(

    I was hoping you'd put the shovel away. ;)


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    #1078
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    awec wrote: »
    Also the competition is seeded based on league position and not previous European progress. Why do you think that is?

    One reason the English and French put this in to stop what they saw as teams phoning it in in the Pro12 (Edinburgh being a prime example). They essentially agree with you awec: European progress only shouldn't make you anything.


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    #1079
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Positives from today?

    Ben T'eo is a superstar in the making. YC aside he was MoTM and that was before he scored a try imo.

    Gopperth, kicking aside, has found some great form in terms of distribution, of course it helps that we had players running onto him.

    Kirchner also looked great, although his rucking was woeful.

    Fitz still on sizzling form.

    Darce will give some headaches, but those knock ons at the end were telling, he just couldn't get to the ball quick enough.

    Ben Marshall could've been a motm, really impressive game.

    Our rucking and forward play is very improved.


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    #1080
    KeithWoodshead
    Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭KeithWoodshead


    Rightwing wrote: »
    I was hoping you'd put the shovel away. ;)

    The arrogance might be someway justified if you had actually made any points of substance

    All you've done is deflect and totally ignore the many rational points that were made against your strange assessment of MOC as a manager


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    #1081
    Swan Curry
    Registered Users Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭Swan Curry


    Rightwing wrote: »
    I was hoping you'd put the shovel away. ;)

    It is genuinely astounding that someone can craft posts as awful as yours in this thread.

    On the plus side, I think it's very possible we'll win the rest of our matches. Hopefully the Treviso match ends up a repeat of last year.


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