Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

SaveOurLyric

Sorry, folks. Late in. Didnt even see the game. Lucky me.

But, are we all on the same page now?

Enough is enough. Some of us may have been ahead of the curve in identifying and calling for decisive action to correct the critical flaw at the heart of Leinster for the last two years, but surely everyone sees the reality in front of us. Who we get is secondary. A punt on a new coach just has to happen.

Expect the press conference whatever Monday after our exit from the ECC.

KeithWoodshead

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Expect the press conference whatever Monday after our exit from the ECC.

Not a hope

Even if he does get the road mid-contract, which seems like it might happen now, it won't be until the end of the season

Still think ye're stuck with him for another year though

Hagz

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

But, are we all on the same page now?

No.

donfers

awec wrote: »

Ulster weren't the second best side in 2012 either for example. We got fortunate in our knockout draws, the semi especially.

We wouldn't have beaten Clermont in France. A fortunate draw made things a lot easier for us.

Toulon are by far the best side in Europe followed by Clermont and then a further distance behind are a few teams including Leinster, Munster, Sarries, Toulouse and maybe Northampton and Ulster

so when you say best sides in Europe, well it depends hoow exclusive you are in your definition; we know the best and second best team in Europe and then there are five or six that are closely matched who can progress quite far depending on draw, referee, home advantage etc.

jaansu

I am not sure you can say we are even one of the second best teams in Europe.

We've lost to the Dragons twice, drew with Treviso.

We were a missed dropped goal away from being out of Europe completly.

The Pheasant2

Reddan was bollocks today. He'll be 35 by the end of the year and will presumably be with the national team for the RWC.

Boss is also ageing and recent form aside he's had a poor season.

McGrath is improving but still not ready for top level rugby.

We need to sign a quality SH - it's simply too pivotal a position to hope to succeed without one. A good scrum half inside Sexton next season would do wonders for our back play.

Any suggestions? Even for post RWC

Sean Kinsella

KeithWoodshead wrote: »

Not a hope

Even if he does get the road mid-contract, which seems like it might happen now, it won't be until the end of the season

Still think ye're stuck with him for another year though

I sincerely hope not.

CatFromHue

Our goals for the season are RCC knock out and Pro 12 play offs so he's achieved one of the goals anyway, and both of them last season.

Mahatma Geansai

Sean Kinsella wrote: »

I sincerely hope not.

I'd be disappointed if Leinster followed the example set in football and fired a coach with a year on his contract because fans are unhappy with performances.

Mahatma Geansai

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I'd be disappointed if Leinster followed the example set in football and fired a coach with a year on his contract because fans are unhappy with performances.

Ulster got there first
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/tommy-bowe-say-sacked-coach-7357426

Rightwing

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I'd be disappointed if Leinster followed the example set in football and fired a coach with a year on his contract because fans are unhappy with performances.

Indeed, this was always going to be a tough job, bit like Moyes @ Man Utd.

MOC has done a very good job, and Leinster have an impressive record at recruiting top coaches.

This upcoming semi isn't over. Munster had the beating of Clermont/Toulon in the last 2 years. Toulon are much the better team, but in a 1 off game, I'm certainly not writing off Leinster.

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

Ulster got there first
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/tommy-bowe-say-sacked-coach-7357426

Big difference was MA had lost the players. They didn't like him and it was a toxic environment.

By all accounts, MOC has the full backing of the players and is popular with them. Their opinions will carry much more weight than the supporters.

He will be coach next season. It's an interesting conversation but does anyone really believe that he's going to be sacked? Not a hope.

Sean Kinsella

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I'd be disappointed if Leinster followed the example set in football and fired a coach with a year on his contract because fans are unhappy with performances.

So the fans (the lifeblood of the club) don't have a view that counts?

That's interesting. Particularly if some of them decide to stop coming.

BTW if this was soccer, MOC would have gone months ago I suspect.

He can still redeem himself, but it involves beating Toulon and/or reaching the PRO12 Play Offs.

errlloyd

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I'd be disappointed if Leinster followed the example set in football and fired a coach with a year on his contract because fans are unhappy with performances.

My understanding is that it is an optional third year renewal. So there isn't a year left on his contract at all.

Buer

Sean Kinsella wrote: »

So the fans (the lifeblood of the club) don't have a view that counts?

That's interesting.

BTW if this was soccer, MOC would have gone months ago I suspect.

He can still redeem himself, but it involves beating Toulon and/or reaching the PRO12 Play Offs.

They have a voice but it's not the deciding one nor hugely influential compared to the players.

If this was a business being managed, MOC would get a bonus for bringing silverware in last season and making the last 4 of Europe this season. That has about as much relevance as soccer does to the situation.

Buer

errlloyd wrote: »

My understanding is that it is an optional third year renewal. So there isn't a year left on his contract at all.

There was never any mention of that upon signing unless you've got some information that isn't publicly available? It was announced as a 3 year deal.

Sean Kinsella

Buer wrote: »

They have a voice but it's not the deciding one nor hugely influential compared to the players.

If this was a business being managed, MOC would get a bonus for bringing silverware in last season and making the last 4 of Europe this season. That has about as much relevance as soccer does to the situation.

Well it's a results based business (as is soccer and I wasn't the one who raised the analogy of that particular sport).

Last season is gone, it's what happens now.

Buer

Sean Kinsella wrote: »

Last season is gone, it's what happens now.

Fair point. I would rather we have someone else at the helm for next season, personally. But it's just not going to happen unless something outlandish happens next weekend. He will see out the contract.

The players support him. They've spoken publicly of their happiness with him and that's this season.

Heroditas

Buer wrote: »

The players support him. They've spoken publicly of their happiness with him and that's this season.

The same was said of Gary Ella!

Heroditas

Heroditas wrote: »

The same was said of Gary Ella!

Theres regular association of rhetoric from just before Kidney was dropped to what you hear from players any time a coach is in doubt. Players will always back the coach.

I love the MOC support coming from some of our southern brethren... almost feels like subtle trolling!

CatFromHue

Heroditas wrote: »

The same was said of Gary Ella!

There were rumours about player unrest under Ella, as there was with Anscombe in Ulster. There haven't been any for MOC.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/other/leinster-players-express-support-for-gary-ella-147024.html

The Leinster players have given their support to coach Gary Ella.
Media reports had suggested that the Australian would be sacked by the end of this week due to player unrest and the decline of the team since the departure of former coach Matt Williams.
However, after a special meeting last night, the Lions squad expressed their backing for Ella.
The club itself also issued a statement on Sunday denying the speculation about his imminent sacking.

molloyjh

CatFromHue wrote: »

There were rumours about player unrest under Ella, as there was with Anscombe in Ulster. There haven't been any for MOC.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/other/leinster-players-express-support-for-gary-ella-147024.html

I'd take anything the players say with a pinch of salt. The players were backing Kidney right to the end as well let's not forget.

stephen_n

I think the fact BOD spoke well of MOC in his book when he didn't have to, let's you know the players regard him as good. I honestly don't know anymore if it's coaching, a lack in the players or probably a combination of both but I definitely think the players are genuinely happy with O'Connor.

CatFromHue

It wasn't just that paper saying it at the time, it was "almost" common knowledge, that's just a quick link I found.

The same as it was for Anscombe in Ulster, it was "almost" common knowledge that things weren't right up there. I think even under McLaughlin in Ulster it was known things weren't right behind the scenes.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd take anything the players say with a pinch of salt. The players were backing Kidney right to the end as well let's not forget.

There's a big difference from defending a coach when asked and enthusiastically complimenting them without being prompted. There is no question at all about the players opinion.

BUT in saying that, what I would say is that the players aren't always a perfect source either. A popular coach is not necessarily a good coach. It's rare that they're particularly bad if they're popular, but it doesn't mean they're optimal.

matthew8

Whatever about the likes of Heaslip and Kearney say, and I believe them because the team always goes out with a good attitude when at full strength, you have to wonder what some of the more fringe players think as quite a few times this season they've let games fall apart, think Munster twice, Treviso and now Dragons twice. And realistically (especially next year) these are the players you rely on to win the league so it's just as important they're satisfied with the coach and I'm not at all convinced they are.

Hagz

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd take anything the players say with a pinch of salt. The players were backing Kidney right to the end as well let's not forget.

I don't really remember players defending Declan Kidney towards the end of his career to be honest. I know Rob Kearney said the players needed to take responsibility for the loss to Scotland, but other than that I don't recall much.
But if they're not asked they won't answer so it could just be that the media were less inquisitive about Kidney as they have been about O'Connor.

But I do find it interesting that Brian O'Driscoll is ready to defend MOC given he's retired now, and given that he's done it on twitter when nobody from the media has asked for it.

.ak

Sean Kinsella wrote: »

Well it's a results based business (as is soccer and I wasn't the one who raised the analogy of that particular sport).

Last season is gone, it's what happens now.

You're right, last season is gone. But if you're applying that logic, then you can only judge him on this season, then you don't sack a coach after one bad season.

The reason it doesn't happen that often in rugby (bar France) is because it takes far longer for a team to change or adapt. We don't have the luxury of making megabuck transfers and loans like you do in soccer.

The guys who make these decisions would also have far more insight into what is actually going wrong, something we don't have to privilege of. I think if MOC was actually completely to blame for our current situation they'd be looking hard for a replacement already..

As it is I don't think they are. I think they understand what MOC is trying to achieve within the limitations of our current setup and squad. He'll do his third year and whilst I reckon the idea of an extension is probably out the door it'll be interesting to see how he gets on with sexton next season.

.ak

.ak wrote: »

You're right, last season is gone. But if you're applying that logic, then you can only judge him on this season, then you don't sack a coach after one bad season.

The reason it doesn't happen that often in rugby (bar France) is because it takes far longer for a team to change or adapt. We don't have the luxury of making megabuck transfers and loans like you do in soccer.

The guys who make these decisions would also have far more insight into what is actually going wrong, something we don't have to privilege of. I think if MOC was actually completely to blame for our current situation they'd be looking hard for a replacement already..

Is it is I don't think they are. I think they understand what MOC is trying to achieve within the limitations of our current setup and squad. He'll do his third year and whilst I reckon the idea of an extension is probably out the door it'll be interesting to see how he gets on with sexton next season.

Pretty much agree with everything there. I would add that I also just don't think MOC is a fit for Leinster. Sometimes it doesn't click between coaches and teams and then both go on to be successful elsewhere.

Out of interest. If MOC was on a 2 year originally - would you consider a 1 year extension or would you be looking at a change?

irishbucsfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Pretty much agree with everything there. I would add that I also just don't think MOC is a fit for Leinster. Sometimes it doesn't click between coaches and teams and then both go on to be successful elsewhere.

Out of interest. If MOC was on a 2 year originally - would you consider a 1 year extension or would you be looking at a change?

I would look for a change. I have defended MOC a lot bease I think the criticism of him has been completely misguided, misdirected or misattributed but I do blame our coaching for some part of where we are currently. That's not to say he is to blame, but rather I think certain aspects of our game would have been better if they had been directed differently. I would look for someone with a more basic and structured approach to the game to come in and put a more restricted approach in place, finding the next Cheika is a difficult ask though. Saying that, I'm certainly not unhappy with the prospect of the return of the MOC.