Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

.ak

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Pretty much agree with everything there. I would add that I also just don't think MOC is a fit for Leinster. Sometimes it doesn't click between coaches and teams and then both go on to be successful elsewhere.

Out of interest. If MOC was on a 2 year originally - would you consider a 1 year extension or would you be looking at a change?

I would look for change IF there was a suitable candidate available.

LorMal

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I'd be disappointed if Leinster followed the example set in football and fired a coach with a year on his contract because fans are unhappy with performances.

Really? While I agree that soccer is ridiculous is sacking coaches after very short periods, the Leinster coaching team has been in place for 2 years now and performances are continuing to slide.
Why should supporters (i.e. those that pay the salaries) not be listened to? That's like the bull**** that politicians come up with - 'voters don't know what's good for them, they need us to show leadership'....

LorMal

Buer wrote: »

Fair point. I would rather we have someone else at the helm for next season, personally. But it's just not going to happen unless something outlandish happens next weekend. He will see out the contract.

The players support him. They've spoken publicly of their happiness with him and that's this season.

Hmmm, is anyone going to criticise their own boss to the media? That would come back to bite them - either immediately or in their future careers (being seen as disloyal / trouble makers). Players are not fools. This is zero indication of anything.

Buer

LorMal wrote: »

Hmmm, is anyone going to criticise their own boss to the media? That would come back to bite them - either immediately or in their future careers (being seen as disloyal / trouble makers). Players are not fools. This is zero indication of anything.

They will. A number of Leinster players spoke to the media about Ella and their criticisms appeared in a Sunday paper; he was removed a short time later. Player power is very real and they are not afraid to use it. Apparently it was the players who had Anscombe removed at Ulster, also. There was a stink of discontent coming from the Ulster camp at the time.

If the players came out as a group and voiced their public support of MOC, I'd say it means nothing and is probably his death knell. However, this is blokes coming out on their own in separate interviews off their own bat and mentioning how happy they are.

Buer

Heroditas wrote: »

The same was said of Gary Ella!

The players gave him the dreaded vote of confidence which they essentially had to after an anonymous group of them criticised him in the press. Keith Gleeson gave an interview last week, oddly enough, where he mentioned that Ella was out of his depth at Leinster.

Mahatma Geansai

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I would look for a change. I have defended MOC a lot bease I think the criticism of him has been completely misguided, misdirected or misattributed but I do blame our coaching for some part of where we are currently. That's not to say he is to blame, but rather I think certain aspects of our game would have been better if they had been directed differently. I would look for someone with a more basic and structured approach to the game to come in and put a more restricted approach in place, finding the next Cheika is a difficult ask though. Saying that, I'm certainly not unhappy with the prospect of the return of the MOC.

I think that might be part of the issue surrounding Leinster's performances under MOC. Everything we've heard about MOC suggests that he is trying to get the side to play heads-ups rugby where the players have the ability to play what is in front of them. Under Joe the gameplan was extremely well planned before hand and there wasn't such a requirement from the players; Jamie described it as a robotic approach.

Maybe Leinster lack the leaders and strong figures required to play heads-up rugby, and performances are suffering as a result. That is one of the reasons why I've been slow to lay all the blame at MOC's feet. If there's any truth to my reading of the situation, the majority of the issue lies with the players.

Buer

.ak wrote: »

I would look for change IF there was a suitable candidate available.

I'm someone who has been quite vocal on the lack of viable options but that's probably owing more to the same tired and unrealistic options being trotted out by people. Oh lets sign Conor O'Shea, lets get Bernard Jackman, give Girv the job etc. None realistic at all.

But there are probably options out there. Tom Coventry was snapped up by London Irish. Darryl Gibson has just been appointed head coach of the Waratahs for next season.

My personal preference would be for us to approach someone like Johann Ackermann. He has done a really good job with the Lions in the Currie Cup and has European experience. We could then move Dempsey into a backs/attacking role alongside him. But, again, it's probably unrealistic as it would mean sacking Cullen too.

Well, the whole thing is unrealistic actually because MOC is with us next season barring a big surprise.

molloyjh

Hagz wrote: »

I don't really remember players defending Declan Kidney towards the end of his career to be honest. I know Rob Kearney said the players needed to take responsibility for the loss to Scotland, but other than that I don't recall much.
But if they're not asked they won't answer so it could just be that the media were less inquisitive about Kidney as they have been about O'Connor.

But I do find it interesting that Brian O'Driscoll is ready to defend MOC given he's retired now, and given that he's done it on twitter when nobody from the media has asked for it.

The things that were being said were very similar to what we're hearing now. We were creating opportunities but not finishing them. The coaches can't make the passes, it's the player responsibility. There's a big game coming up and we have to make a statement for the coach and team etc.

Rob Kearney wrote:

On a day like that when we had so much possession and created so much, the blame has to be on the players. The coaches can't make that final pass for you or make that clinical decision. The players must take responsibility and must bear the brunt.

The guys were happy with the gameplan and how we were playing the game. We created opportunities. The stats show that we played the right way. It was just one of those days when you can't really explain things.

It was very disappointing as we should have won and as a team we have to take responsibility for that.

It's a massive two weeks ahead of us now. We need a big statement against France for ourselves, the jersey and our country. People deserve more.....We must make a statement for Declan, for ourselves and the country.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

....it'll be interesting to see how he gets on with sexton next season.

Sexton won't be around for 5-6 months of next season. We won't see very much of him in the league at all. He won't join Leinster proper until November and he'll be coming into a very unfamiliar environment that he'll need to adapt to. He is not a magic pill and I'm worried that there's far too much of an emphasis on him making things better. He's one guy who will certainly have an impact, but that will be very limited next season. And he's still just one guy. We can't rely on him to turn everything around by himself.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

I would look for change IF there was a suitable candidate available.

I also think this is a bit of a cop out. None of us had a clue who Cheika was when he was hired and not many knew of Schmidt either. Just because we don't know who is or isn't available doesn't mean for a second there isn't a better candidate out there.

LorMal

Buer wrote: »

They will. A number of Leinster players spoke to the media about Ella and their criticisms appeared in a Sunday paper; he was removed a short time later. Player power is very real and they are not afraid to use it. Apparently it was the players who had Anscombe removed at Ulster, also. There was a stink of discontent coming from the Ulster camp at the time.

If the players came out as a group and voiced their public support of MOC, I'd say it means nothing and is probably his death knell. However, this is blokes coming out on their own in separate interviews off their own bat and mentioning how happy they are.

Are you sure its 'off their own bat'? From what I see, a couple of players are offered up each week to the media for interviews prior to games. Its generally the usual 'we need to maintain the intensity for the full 80 minutes' stuff.
If they are asked about the coach, they will say whatever generalization or cliche causes the least controversy 'Matt is doing a great job, we need to become more accurate in our execution etc'. There is no win for them as individuals in publicly criticizing the coach. Particularly if they are getting picked each week.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I would look for a change. I have defended MOC a lot bease I think the criticism of him has been completely misguided, misdirected or misattributed but I do blame our coaching for some part of where we are currently. That's not to say he is to blame, but rather I think certain aspects of our game would have been better if they had been directed differently. I would look for someone with a more basic and structured approach to the game to come in and put a more restricted approach in place, finding the next Cheika is a difficult ask though. Saying that, I'm certainly not unhappy with the prospect of the return of the MOC.

I wonder do Leinster just need a tougher personality? I don't doubt that MOC is a good coach. His record with Leicester speaks to that. I just wonder is he too soft in his management style? He had Cockerill at Leicester who I'm sure filled that "bad cop" role if you want to call it that. Cheiks wasn't exactly mild mannered and Joe was known for being pretty scathing when he needed to be. Yet what we're hearing of MOC is that he's quite an easy going and personable fella who has a laugh with the lads in the video review when pointing out errors etc. There's been very little mention of him having a go at the lads in the dressing room, something we've heard mention of with most other coaches.

Buer

I'd be fairly sure. Fitzerald was gushing in his praise of him.

He’s a brilliant coach, a really bright guy, so hopefully we can put in a couple of good performances.
“He really deserves it. He’s an outstanding coach, a really bright guy. There’s a lot of respect for him among the player group, so we owe him a couple of big ones.

That's not really the words of someone who is just trotting out the party line.

BOD has repeatedly spoken of him being a good coach and the criticism being laughable.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

I'd be fairly sure. Fitzerald was gushing in his praise of him.



That's not really the words of someone who is just trotting out the party line.

BOD has repeatedly spoken of him being a good coach and the criticism being laughable.

Sometimes when you're really close to something it can be hard to see the wood from the trees. And while it may well be true that he's a technically good coach, is he the man manager we need? I know that may sound a little clichéd but there's often a lot of truth in that sort of thing.

LeinsterDub

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I do blame our coaching for some part of where we are currently. That's not to say he is to blame, but rather I think certain aspects of our game would have been better if they had been directed differently. I would look for someone with a more basic and structured approach to the game to come in and put a more restricted approach in place.

Are you say our players are too stupid to play MOCBall or just not skilled enough to play MOCBall?


Also surely the onus is on the coach to play to a style that suit his players strengths and masks their weaknesses

vienne86

molloyjh wrote: »

I wonder do Leinster just need a tougher personality? I don't doubt that MOC is a good coach. His record with Leicester speaks to that. I just wonder is he too soft in his management style? He had Cockerill at Leicester who I'm sure filled that "bad cop" role if you want to call it that. Cheiks wasn't exactly mild mannered and Joe was known for being pretty scathing when he needed to be. Yet what we're hearing of MOC is that he's quite an easy going and personable fella who has a laugh with the lads in the video review when pointing out errors etc. There's been very little mention of him having a go at the lads in the dressing room, something we've heard mention of with most other coaches.

I have been wondering about this very thing too - Joe's video sessions were infamous and I would have thought the prospect of a scathing criticisim on Monday morning would help focus the mind on cutting out careless errors.

LorMal

Buer wrote: »

I'd be fairly sure. Fitzerald was gushing in his praise of him.



That's not really the words of someone who is just trotting out the party line.

BOD has repeatedly spoken of him being a good coach and the criticism being laughable.

I agree that Luke was very gushing in his praise. Luke was just back from long term injury and seeking to win back his place as a regular in the team. Giving strong public support to the decision maker would be a good idea in those circumstances.
BOD tends not to rock the boat in anything he says. Very bland as a pundit (but very interesting and insightful on the technical aspects). I think the quote from BOD you are referencing was more about criticism of Leinster rather than MOC? (About fans expecting to win everything all the time)

Quint2010

Wost league performance for 11 seasons.

molloyjh

vienne86 wrote: »

I have been wondering about this very thing too - Joe's video sessions were infamous and I would have thought the prospect of a scathing criticisim on Monday morning would help focus the mind on cutting out careless errors.

A few of the players commented on it over the years didn't they? Saying that they'd have moments on the pitch where they'd think "Oh cr@p, Joe's going to pull me up on that on Monday. I'd better make sure it doesn't happen again or I'm in trouble.".

thomond2006

molloyjh wrote: »

A few of the players commented on it over the years didn't they? Saying that they'd have moments on the pitch where they'd think "Oh cr@p, Joe's going to pull me up on that on Monday. I'd better make sure it doesn't happen again or I'm in trouble.".

If I recall right Kurt McQuilkin was known to be very tough on a Monday!

LeinsterDub

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Are you say our players are too stupid to play MOCBall or just not skilled enough to play MOCBall?


Also surely the onus is on the coach to play to a style that suit his players strengths and masks their weaknesses

What is MOCBall?

irishbucsfan

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Are you say our players are too stupid to play MOCBall or just not skilled enough to play MOCBall?

Hmm...

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Sometimes when you're really close to something it can be hard to see the wood from the trees. And while it may well be true that he's a technically good coach, is he the man manager we need? I know that may sound a little clichéd but there's often a lot of truth in that sort of thing.

That may be true, but there's no real doubt the players are supportive of him, which was the prior point.

sydthebeat

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Are you say our players are too stupid to play MOCBall or just not skilled enough to play MOCBall?


Also surely the onus is on the coach to play to a style that suit his players strengths and masks their weaknesses

have you stopped beating your wife?

LeinsterDub

Deleted User wrote: »

What is MOCBall?

Matt's "style" of play

LeinsterDub

sydthebeat wrote: »

have you stopped beating your wife?

IBF can clarify what he meant a 3rd option is acceptable

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That may be true, but there's no real doubt the players are supportive of him, which was the prior point.

It certainly looks like they are supportive, but I would still take the stuff in the press with a pinch of salt. We're a long way from the Ella days as an organisation so we're less likely to hear about player issues now than we were then. Luke and Drico have made really positive noises but most of the other stuff I've read has been pretty standard guff similar to what we saw at the tail end of Kidneys time with Ireland.

I can't imagine guys like Luke McGrath or Cathal Marsh are overly happy for example. In fact what Shaggy was talking about a couple of weeks ago (not empowering younger players and a potential divide in the camp if things keep going the way they are) could be very likely. As I said already Reddan self destructed yesterday in the second half. Be that through tiredness or switching off or whatever. Yet McGrath didn't really get a look in until it was too late. There is no way things like that don't impact the younger lads or the overall morale in the wider squad.

irishbucsfan

Theres zero evidence of any disharmony or unhappiness though. I wouldn't be so sure the fringe players are any less happy to be honest. Their opinion is crafted by what is happening Monday - Friday much more so than the senior guys.

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

I also think this is a bit of a cop out. None of us had a clue who Cheika was when he was hired and not many knew of Schmidt either. Just because we don't know who is or isn't available doesn't mean for a second there isn't a better candidate out there.

The point is why sign an unknown coach to replace one where we aren't even sure if he's the main issue at hand. I'm talking from someone's point of view like Dawson.

jacothelad

Deleted User wrote: »

Ulster got there first
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/tommy-bowe-say-sacked-coach-7357426

Anscombe wasn't paid off because he was a bad coach, it was for other reasons.