Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

George Hook

molloyjh wrote: »

Oh FFS, someone is going to have to do this it may as well be me....

What has MOC ever done for us?

Well there was the Pro12 title

Ok apart from the Pro12 title, what has MOC ever done for us?

He brought Ben Te'o in.

Ok apart from the Pro12 title and Ben Te'o, what has MOC ever done for us?

European Champions Cup Semi-Final?

Apart from the Pro12 title, Ben Te'o and the Champions Cup Semi-Final, what has MOC ever done for us?

It's perhaps fitting that you're doing a parody of 'what have the Romans ever done for us' from Monty python. In their sketch one of the points they make is concerning the roads. These however existed long before the Romans took credit for them.

Which basically leads me to my point that, he inherited a team full of internationals who had just won the Pro12 and the European Challenge Cup the season before, they were not going to become a disaster over night. The problem is that the trajectory of the teams performance looks downwards and not upwards.

Dravokivich

.ak wrote: »

I don't think the same could be said, no.

Gopperth or Boss might have the odd dodgy pass, but nothing like what we've seen from McGrath.

A lot of the issues with Leinster fumbling the ball and conceding knock ons are down to bad distribution and LMcGrath isn't on the field for most of them. I feel it's unfair to pick him out as not "stepping up" when it seems to be a general issue amongst the team. It's very noticeable in Boss, he has thrown a lot of passes short. And Gopperth, when he does pass, tends to do so in the last moment.

The only reason why no one is saying it against Boss, is because they are focusing as much on what he does right, as what LMcGrath does wrong. And people only generally look at criticising Gopperth for being a 10 who can't kick.

molloyjh

George Hook wrote: »

It's perhaps fitting that you're doing a parody of 'what have the Romans ever done for us' from Monty python. In their sketch one of the points they make is concerning the roads. These however existed long before the Romans took credit for them.

Which basically leads me to my point that, he inherited a team full of internationals who had just won the Pro12 and the European Challenge Cup the season before, they were not going to become a disaster over night. The problem is that the trajectory of the teams performance looks downwards and not upwards.

It was always going to go downwards though. We lost Sexton and Nacewa at the end of that season, with Drico and Cullen gone the end of last. Some of our big name players have gotten older like Darce and Jenno and are on their last legs. And others, like Fitzy, Healy and O'Brien, have been injured for long periods.

Anyone expecting anything other than a dip in our performances and achievements was kidding themselves. The matter of how far we should have regressed versus how far we have is the real matter for debate.

.ak

Quint2010 wrote: »

Joe Schmidt is an absolute workaholic. MOC is as laid back and easy going as they come. To go from one type of coach to a completely different type was asking for trouble and it's showing.

Not sure what Moc's personal habits has to do with this thread.

Keep to the rugby folks.

.ak

Dravokivich wrote: »

A lot of the issues with Leinster fumbling the ball and conceding knock ons are down to bad distribution and LMcGrath isn't on the field for most of them. I feel it's unfair to pick him out as not "stepping up" when it seems to be a general issue amongst the team. It's very noticeable in Boss, he has thrown a lot of passes short. And Gopperth, when he does pass, tends to do so in the last moment.

The only reason why no one is saying it against Boss, is because they are focusing as much on what he does right, as what LMcGrath does wrong. And people only generally look at criticising Gopperth for being a 10 who can't kick.

You would be right, but I'm obviously only talking about Luke McGrath's appearances, I am most certainly not blaming him for everyone else's problems.

Zzippy

George Hook wrote: »

Which basically leads me to my point that, he inherited a team full of internationals who had just won the Pro12 and the European Challenge Cup the season before, they were not going to become a disaster over night. The problem is that the trajectory of the teams performance looks downwards and not upwards.

One could argue that the downward trajectory was already well underway - the Challenge Cup was hardly the same as winning the Heineken Cup, Sexton had signed for Racing, Nacewa had indicated he was leaving, no adequate replacements were signed in time. The problem for MOC is the downward trajectory has accelerated on his watch and I think it will take a lot more than the return of Johnny and Isa to reverse that.

LorMal

Neil3030 wrote: »

A small aside, but could we impose an instant 6-month ban for using the phrase 'coaching ticket'?

It's the Thornleyest Thronleyism that ever Thornleyed.

Thanks Neil...The best post I have read in months.

molloyjh

Zzippy wrote: »

One could argue that the downward trajectory was already well underway - the Challenge Cup was hardly the same as winning the Heineken Cup, Sexton had signed for Racing, Nacewa had indicated he was leaving, no adequate replacements were signed in time. The problem for MOC is the downward trajectory has accelerated on his watch and I think it will take a lot more than the return of Johnny and Isa to reverse that.

I'm not sure you could say that about Joes last season per se. We had a massive injury crisis that year which impacted the first half of our season, like this season. And we still came very close to qualifying from a pool that had Clermont in it. We then comprehensively won the Amlin when we could have just not bothered with it and then we won the league having come second in the regular season (just 3 points behind Ulster) despite the injury crisis. Some pundits reckoned had we qualified from our pool we'd have won another HEC based on the rugby we were playing in the second half of the season.

In terms of the players we were losing though there was going to be a decline last season. But while Sextons departure and Nacewa leaving were blows that we were going to struggle to overcome, they weren't as the result of a decline during that season itself.

LorMal

Noopti wrote: »

"Brains Trust" is far far worse

How about 'swing from the hip'.. and...'it's all too easy to criticise from the cheap seats'...or...'I have to agree with Fester there'...or 'Top Quartorze'....

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

Some pundits reckoned had we qualified from our pool we'd have won another HEC based on the rugby we were playing in the second half of the season.

I very much felt that watching the HC final that year that Leinster would have won against either team.

I think if we maintained where we were last year I'd be happy enough, not playing great and winning ugly at times but placing well in the league and getting out of a challenging enough group.

Bridge93

Any word on Leigh Halfpennys shoulder injury? He went off at the weekend

Tox56

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I very much felt that watching the HC final that year that Leinster would have won against either team.

I think if we maintained where we were last year I'd be happy enough, not playing great and winning ugly at times but placing well in the league and getting out of a challenging enough group.

I don't know about would have won but we absolutely could have. It's a really frustrating what could have been, but then we were Fofana's bicep away from not getting the 3rd so I think I can live with it

total former

Zzippy wrote: »

One could argue that the downward trajectory was already well underway - the Challenge Cup was hardly the same as winning the Heineken Cup, Sexton had signed for Racing, Nacewa had indicated he was leaving, no adequate replacements were signed in time. The problem for MOC is the downward trajectory has accelerated on his watch and I think it will take a lot more than the return of Johnny and Isa to reverse that.

See this is one of the reasons I have sympathy for MOC. Joe is obviously a fantastic coach, better coach than MOC or pretty much anyone else you could name, but the squad that won back to back HCs was built by Cheika. Strauss is maybe the only key member of that team that Schmidt can really take credit for. The academy was churning out world class players at a fantastic rate and that's slowed up since, so maybe Cheika was lucky too but he was never shy about giving young guys a chance.

Now, we should be doing better with the players we do have but I definitely think Joe left the squad in a worse state than when he found it. Some period of rebuilding was inevitable. MOC has shown good judgement with Te'o, Douglas can only improve (we hope) and he's taken a massive gamble on Nacewa. Sexton is massive but that's an IRFU call.

I think he deserves to be judged on a decent timescale and to have the time to put his own stamp on the team. If we judged Cheika after two seasons he'd have been gone and we'd probably still have no stars on the jersey.

stephen_n

That's has to be the greatest load of Manipulation and twisting of views to defend a stance I've ever seen on any forum anywhere, on any subject, were you a former spin doctor per chance?

Joe inherited a squad that lost players too, massive players who we thought were irreplaceable yet he picked up where Cheika left off and turned it up several notches and he did it in less than half a season O'Connor has had pretty much two full seasons and has turned it down about 10, the squad that joe left was weakened by retirement of Nacewa, injury EOM and the transfer of Sexton, yes all big loses, when joe took over we had lost Contepomi and Elsom, easily as big a loss of quality players. Two years isn't a decent timescale?

irishbucsfan

stephen_n wrote: »

That's has to be the greatest load of Manipulation and twisting of views to defend a stance I've ever seen on any forum anywhere, on any subject, were you a former spin doctor per chance?

Joe inherited a squad that lost players too, massive players who we thought were irreplaceable yet he picked up where Cheika left off and turned it up several notches and he did it in less than half a season O'Connor has had pretty much two full seasons and has turned it down about 10, the squad that joe left was weakened by retirement of Nacewa, injury EOM and the transfer of Sexton, yes all big loses, when joe took over we had lost Contepomi and Elsom, easily as big a loss of quality players. Two years isn't a decent timescale?

Quick question on this, not really agreeing one way or the other, which players did Joe lose?

This is the team that played the semi final against Toulouse in 2010 (Sexton was injured):

15: Rob Kearney
14: Shane Horgan
13: Brian O'Driscoll
12: Gordon D'Arcy
11: Isa Nacewa
10: Shaun Berne
9: Eoin Reddan

1: Cian Healy (CJ van der Linde, 31) (Mike Ross, 75)
2: John Fogarty
3: Stan Wright (Cian Healy, 56)
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN
5: Nathan Hines
6: Kevin McLaughlin (Malcolm O'Kelly, 66)
7: Shane Jennings (Stephen Keogh, 52)
8: Jamie Heaslip

EDIT: Mad remembering how little Mike Ross played in 09/10!

stephen_n

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Quick question on this, not really agreeing one way or the other, which players did Joe lose?

This is the team that played the semi final against Toulouse in 2010 (Sexton was injured):

15: Rob Kearney
14: Shane Horgan
13: Brian O'Driscoll
12: Gordon D'Arcy
11: Isa Nacewa
10: Shaun Berne
9: Eoin Reddan

1: Cian Healy (CJ van der Linde, 31) (Mike Ross, 75)
2: John Fogarty
3: Stan Wright (Cian Healy, 56)
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN
5: Nathan Hines
6: Kevin McLaughlin (Malcolm O'Kelly, 66)
7: Shane Jennings (Stephen Keogh, 52)
8: Jamie Heaslip

EDIT: Mad remembering how little Mike Ross played in 09/10!

Contepomi and Elson went, who at the time would have been considered irreparable, although sexton had emerged at that stage and SOB came through.

irishbucsfan

stephen_n wrote: »

Contepomi and Elson went, who at the time would have been considered irreparable, although sexton had emerged at that stage and SOB came through.

They left after 08/09 though, the team had a year under Cheika without them before Joe arrived.

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

See this is one of the reasons I have sympathy for MOC. Joe is obviously a fantastic coach, better coach than MOC or pretty much anyone else you could name, but the squad that won back to back HCs was built by Cheika. Strauss is maybe the only key member of that team that Schmidt can really take credit for. The academy was churning out world class players at a fantastic rate and that's slowed up since, so maybe Cheika was lucky too but he was never shy about giving young guys a chance.

Now, we should be doing better with the players we do have but I definitely think Joe left the squad in a worse state than when he found it. Some period of rebuilding was inevitable. MOC has shown good judgement with Te'o, Douglas can only improve (we hope) and he's taken a massive gamble on Nacewa. Sexton is massive but that's an IRFU call.

I think he deserves to be judged on a decent timescale and to have the time to put his own stamp on the team. If we judged Cheika after two seasons he'd have been gone and we'd probably still have no stars on the jersey.

Was that Joes fault though? Our pack is better than ever, with far more depth than ever. The issues we have are at lock and in the midfield. At lock the players just aren't there. And injury enforced retirements to guys like McKinley and O'Malley have hurt our midfield. I'm not sure you can blame anyone for these things. They just happen.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Was that Joes fault though? Our pack is better than ever, with far more depth than ever. The issues we have are at lock and in the midfield. At lock the players just aren't there. And injury enforced retirements to guys like McKinley and O'Malley have hurt our midfield. I'm not sure you can blame anyone for these things. They just happen.

I'd agree with that, we have had lousy luck with signings and development in midfield and 2nd row. If things had gone another way we might be watching McKinley/O'Malley tearing teams apart and a recently Irish qualified Sykes leading the pack!

stephen_n

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They left after 08/09 though, the team had a year under Cheika without them before Joe arrived.

But the argument is that Cheika gave joe a much better squad than joe gave MOC, I suppose we will never know how well Joe would have coped with the squad that MOC inherited and it's impossible to say but to say that, Joe was lucky with the squad he got and MOC was unlucky with his lot is total bs IMO

sydthebeat

stephen_n wrote: »

T when joe took over we had lost Contepomi and Elsom, easily as big a loss of quality players. ?

contempomi became sexton
elsom became sean o brien

hardly a loss of quality there......

SaveOurLyric

Early days obvs, but just putting a feeler out there :

If the worst of the worst happens, and we are subjected to the MOC regime next season, am thinking of standing for the general election next year for the Dun Laoghaire constituency on the single issue of improving the prospects of Leinster rugby.

In this era of independent candidates ascendency and political uncertainty/opportunity, I think the opportunity could be there to raise the profile of this important issue, and hopefully be elected to effect real change on rugby in Leinster. I dont see it as a long term gig, and would resign my seat on achievement of key objectives.

So, do we feel its a runner ?





(pm if you want to come on board and are willing to help the cause, canvass, or just willing to make a donation to the campaign if we get it off the ground.)

total former

stephen_n wrote: »

That's has to be the greatest load of Manipulation and twisting of views to defend a stance I've ever seen on any forum anywhere, on any subject, were you a former spin doctor per chance?

Well that's lovely. Could you not just debate the point? Is your argument that weak? (see below; it would appear so)

stephen_n wrote: »

Joe inherited a squad that lost players too, massive players who we thought were irreplaceable yet he picked up where Cheika left off and turned it up several notches and he did it in less than half a season O'Connor has had pretty much two full seasons and has turned it down about 10, the squad that joe left was weakened by retirement of Nacewa, injury EOM and the transfer of Sexton, yes all big loses, when joe took over we had lost Contepomi and Elsom, easily as big a loss of quality players. Two years isn't a decent timescale?

As pointed out above, Elsom was replaced by O'Brien and Contepomi by Sexton, players who developed under Cheika. And they left a year before Joe took over, so the rebuilding process had begun well before Joe arrived.

So again, did Joe leave the squad worse off than when he arrived? Yes.

Quint2010

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Early days obvs, but just putting a feeler out there :

If the worst of the worst happens, and we are subjected to the MOC regime next season, am thinking of standing for the general election next year for the Dun Laoghaire constituency on the single issue of improving the prospects of Leinster rugby.

In this era of independent candidates ascendency and political uncertainty/opportunity, I think the opportunity could be there to raise the profile of this important issue, and hopefully be elected to effect real change on rugby in Leinster. I dont see it as a long term gig, and would resign my seat on achievement of key objectives.

So, do we feel its a runner ?





(pm if you want to come on board and are willing to help the cause, canvass, or just willing to make a donation to the campaign if we get it off the ground.)

What ticket will be running on? Terrace or grandstand?..

total former

molloyjh wrote: »

Was that Joes fault though? Our pack is better than ever, with far more depth than ever. The issues we have are at lock and in the midfield. At lock the players just aren't there. And injury enforced retirements to guys like McKinley and O'Malley have hurt our midfield. I'm not sure you can blame anyone for these things. They just happen.

Who is blaming anyone? These things do happen, that's my point!

Cheika was able to sign the likes of Elsom, Nacewa and CJ because he was operating in a different set of circumstances, or a different "environment" as MOC might call it. Joe and MOC just haven't been able to sign the same quality of overseas players.

Re: home grown talent. During Cheika's reign, we saw Healy, O'Brien, Heaslip, Sexton, Fitzgerald and Kearney all emerge as homegrown players of unbelievable ability, all in the space of about 3 years. The more recent additions to the squad just haven't been as good. Again, no one's fault, but it's a fact.

So our ability to sign big-name talent combined with a drop-off in quality of homegrown players has led to a downward trajectory in the quality and depth of the squad. As you say, the question is whether we've done well enough with the squad we have; I said above that we haven't, but I honestly think people are just scanning the posts looking for the bit to get outraged by.

Edit: and I'll say it again, it's not just about individual talent but personality. Cheika brought Cullen and Jennings home, that was massive. We already had O'Driscoll and Heaslip, then Sexton emerges and we sign Nacewa. That's six outstanding leaders, now down to one (sorry Jenno).

stephen_n

total former wrote: »

Well that's lovely. Could you not just debate the point? Is your argument that weak? (see below; it would appear so)



As pointed out above, Elsom was replaced by O'Brien and Contepomi by Sexton, players who developed under Cheika. And they left a year before Joe took over, so the rebuilding process had begun well before Joe arrived.

So again, did Joe leave the squad worse off than when he arrived? Yes.

Squad no unless you are making the argument that two players make a squad, as was pointed out above, we had a vastly improved pack both in strength and depth over the period of joe arriving and leaving. You never answered the question is two years not long enough given the massive level of decline both in performance and results, how long should it take in your opinion.

McGrath, Moore, Murphy, Ruddock all emerged through Joes time as much as Healy et al did under Cheika, so to say the quality of players coming through isn't as good is just wrong.

TheGoldenAges

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Early days obvs, but just putting a feeler out there :

If the worst of the worst happens, and we are subjected to the MOC regime next season, am thinking of standing for the general election next year for the Dun Laoghaire constituency on the single issue of improving the prospects of Leinster rugby.

In this era of independent candidates ascendency and political uncertainty/opportunity, I think the opportunity could be there to raise the profile of this important issue, and hopefully be elected to effect real change on rugby in Leinster. I dont see it as a long term gig, and would resign my seat on achievement of key objectives.

So, do we feel its a runner ?





(pm if you want to come on board and are willing to help the cause, canvass, or just willing to make a donation to the campaign if we get it off the ground.)

That's something straight out of a Ross O'Carroll-Kelly book.

SaveOurLyric

Quint2010 wrote: »

What ticket will be running on? Terrace or grandstand?..

What ?

The 'coaching ticket' (©G Thornley) obviously.

total former

stephen_n wrote: »

Squad no unless you are making the argument that two players make a squad, as was pointed out above, we had a vastly improved pack both in strength and depth over the period of joe arriving and leaving. You never answered the question is two years not long enough given the massive level of decline both in performance and results, how long should it take in your opinion.

McGrath, Moore, Murphy, Ruddock all emerged through Joes time as much as Healy et al did under Cheika, so to say the quality of players coming through isn't as good is just wrong.

If you want to tell me that Jack McGrath, Jordi Murphy and Rhys Ruddock are as good as Cian Healy, Sean O'Brien and Jamie Heaslip, then I'm not sure where to go with that. They just aren't, there isn't any debate about that, and that's before we even consider the backs...

But to answer your question; O'Connor got a three year contract. I think that's a reasonable time frame. As I said in my original post, but maybe the red mist had descended and you missed this, he's now been able to sign a few players of his own, the squad will be better next season, I'm willing to see how it pans out.

stephen_n

total former wrote: »

If you want to tell me that Jack McGrath, Jordi Murphy and Rhys Ruddock are as good as Cian Healy, Sean O'Brien and Jamie Heaslip, then I'm not sure where to go with that. They just aren't, there isn't any debate about that, and that's before we even consider the backs...

But to answer your question; O'Connor got a three year contract. I think that's a reasonable time frame. As I said in my original post, but maybe the red mist had descended and you missed this, he's now been able to sign a few players of his own, the squad will be better next season, I'm willing to see how it pans out.

You mean sexton returning or T'eo, he didn't really have much say in the Sexton thing. I don't think it's going to make much difference, one or two players will not rectify what's happening at the moment, no matter how good they are. I must state though as much as I'm unhappy with MOC, I do not agree with terminating his contract and nor do I think he is the only problem at this stage, by a long way but coaches are responsible for the direction a team takes and both performace and results going in the wrong direction. I think two years is more than enough and I think Leinster made a mistake giving 3 years instead of 2.