Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

Neil3030

thomond2006 wrote: »

I reckon Leinster need a brains trust style coaching ticket from the Top Quatorze.

May you perish roaring.

duckysauce

stephen_n wrote: »

You mean sexton returning or T'eo, he didn't really have much say in the Sexton thing. I don't think it's going to make much difference, one or two players will not rectify what's happening at the moment, no matter how good they are. I must state though as much as I'm unhappy with MOC, I do not agree with terminating his contract and nor do I think he is the only problem at this stage, by a long way but coaches are responsible for the direction a team takes and both performace and results going in the wrong direction. I think two years is more than enough and I think Leinster made a mistake giving 3 years instead of 2.

do you think Cullen has offered much to the Leinster coaching cause or is it all just MOC making a mess?

stephen_n

duckysauce wrote: »

do you think Cullen has offered much to the Leinster coaching cause or is it all just MOC making a mess?

No I think Cullen was a very bad decision, I don't think any of us know enough about the break down of the coaching duties to say who's responsible for what. You could say Murphy is failing as the skills coach, given the lack of skills and accuracy in our play but he didn't have an issue in that role before, or with Ireland, despite working with many of the same players. The thing is though, ultimately its coaches job to get the team to perfom and I don't think anyone can claim thats happening. MOC has a vision for Leinster but 2 years in he has not been able to make it work, that's not saying he's a bad coach but it suggests he's a bad match for the players Leinster have.

RobbieRuns

You say appointing Leo was a bad decision, but whatever about rugby related discussions, from a clubs perspective putting Leo in there has meant less flak for them. If any other person was on the coaching ticket, they would be getting it in the neck big time!

I sometimes think that MOC gets it all because the club legend coaching the forwards is immune from or at least less likey to be criticised. The results going the way they are will start to change that. If the Champions cup exit comes in the next round and no top 4 finish in the Pro 12, then I expect it will open the flood gates and even the mighty Leo will not be able to avoid the fans wrath.

CIARAN_BOYLE

If Leo is to remain as forwards coach it should be a titular role under a head coach who is mainly a forwards coach with a backs coach coming. Very similar to MOD in Munster, he takes forwards sessions when Foley is busy with head coach duties and coaches the A teams forwards.

Larbre34

Tony Ward telling us in d'Indo this morning that we (the blue army) are "wrong", "uninformed" and "spoilt" where it comes to Gopperth, and that he is the "real deal" in terms of being an all round out-half.

Sorry Tony, but where the demands of the modern game define an imposing and accurate tactical kicking game as part of being a good all-rounder, I dont think we are wrong.

.ak

I do think Gopperth is a lot better than given credit for. His kicking from hand has been atrocious, but that never seemed to be an issue for him in his previous teams. I wonder if our systems for kicking are such that it puts the halfbacks under too much pressure. He had a really good game against Dragons, and for me showed why he's so much better than Madigan - the ability to distribute and to call a backline move in play, and more to the point make these calls at the right time. His running threat is actually better than Madigan's too.

It's a silly subject but it gets revisited a lot - Ward is right in the sense that the fans give him far too much hassle.

He'll be a bit of a superstar at Wasps next season I imagine.

thomond2006

I have spoken to and heard many Leinster fans at matches and am in the "vociferous section" of the RDS and not once have I heard Jimmy Gopperth described anything close to "the root of all evil".

Tony Ward in talking down to supporters shocker. You're a broken record at this stage.

Zzippy

thomond2006 wrote: »

I have spoken to and heard many Leinster fans at matches and am in the "vociferous section" of the RDS...

Voiferous eh? I bet those guys take their mocha frappucinos without sugar! Hard... :eek:

This article stands out from Thornley, it's quite a strong critique and to my mind the first of it's kind from the less knee-jerky media:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/leinster-statistics-tell-a-story-of-decline-as-team-struggles-with-loss-of-self-belief-1.2174431

He is having quite a go here. These two lines in particular:

"O’Connor and his coaching staff have simply not been extracting the same level of performances from the team when the front-liners have been unavailable."

"Still, were Leinster to seek a successor to O’Connor, the job might not be that attractive"

.ak

thomond2006 wrote: »

I have spoken to and heard many Leinster fans at matches and am in the "vociferous section" of the RDS and not once have I heard Jimmy Gopperth described anything close to "the root of all evil".

Tony Ward in talking down to supporters shocker. Just go away.

The terrace is a different animal to the rest of the grounds if I'm being honest. There's a bunch of lads behind me in the Anglesea stand that actively groan whenever he's announced or whenever he touches the ball. I've also heard plenty of fans around me bitch about him and moan as to why Madigan isn't playing and we'd be winning trophies if Madigan was starting etc. Some even said they'd be willing to buy Gopperth a flight home! :eek:

And that's the behaved fans in the Anglesea stand... What Ward is probably referring to is the 'fans' on facebook (and yes, I have no problem putting quote marks around fans in this instance. Some of the stuff they spout is vile and it's unfortunate to be associated with them).

.ak

Zzippy wrote: »

Voiferous eh? I bet those guys take their mocha frappucinos without sugar! Hard... :eek:

A flat white. :cool:

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

I do think Gopperth is a lot better than given credit for. His kicking from hand has been atrocious, but that never seemed to be an issue for him in his previous teams. I wonder if our systems for kicking are such that it puts the halfbacks under too much pressure. He had a really good game against Dragons, and for me showed why he's so much better than Madigan - the ability to distribute and to call a backline move in play, and more to the point make these calls at the right time. His running threat is actually better than Madigan's too.

It's a silly subject but it gets revisited a lot - Ward is right in the sense that the fans give him far too much hassle.

He'll be a bit of a superstar at Wasps next season I imagine.

Listen I like Jimmy. He's an honest sort and we'd be a lot worse off without him generally (never mind not be in a Euro SF!). And certain sections of Leinster support have given him nothing but grief, the vast majority of it undeserved. But that last line!? Really!?

He's a good out-half. He's not a great out-half. And he most certainly is not, nor ever will be, a superstar.

.ak wrote: »

The terrace is a different animal to the rest of the grounds if I'm being honest. There's a bunch of lads behind me in the Anglesea stand that actively groan whenever he's announced or whenever he touches the ball. I've also heard plenty of fans around me bitch about him and moan as to why Madigan isn't playing and we'd be winning trophies if Madigan was starting etc. Some even said they'd be willing to buy Gopperth a flight home! :eek:

And that's the behaved fans in the Anglesea stand... What Ward is probably referring to is the 'fans' on facebook (and yes, I have no problem putting quote marks around fans in this instance. Some of the stuff they spout is vile and it's unfortunate to be associated with them).

The media would do well to learn the difference themselves. I'm sick of Leinster support in general being spoken about the way it has been because a lot of it is off the back of the bile that's spouted on the likes of Facebook. We all know that's not the most accurate representation of the fan base.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

Listen I like Jimmy. He's an honest sort and we'd be a lot worse off without him generally (never mind not be in a Euro SF!). And certain sections of Leinster support have given him nothing but grief, the vast majority of it undeserved. But that last line!? Really!?

He's a good out-half. He's not a great out-half. And he most certainly is not, nor ever will be, a superstar.



The media would do well to learn the difference themselves. I'm sick of Leinster support in general being spoken about the way it has been because a lot of it is off the back of the bile that's spouted on the likes of Facebook. We all know that's not the most accurate representation of the fan base.

The two pundits most commonly criticising fans are Tony Ward and Alan Quinlan. That should tell you everything about how seriously those accusations should be taken.

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

Listen I like Jimmy. He's an honest sort and we'd be a lot worse off without him generally (never mind not be in a Euro SF!). And certain sections of Leinster support have given him nothing but grief, the vast majority of it undeserved. But that last line!? Really!?

He's a good out-half. He's not a great out-half. And he most certainly is not, nor ever will be, a superstar.

Well it's just an opinion, and I disagree with you. I think he is a great outhalf and unfortunately hasn't been consistently great for us - but you have to consider why the rest of our squad have also suffered in consistency.

But regarding the 'superstar' comment I think he'll thrive with Wasps with guys like Wade, Varndell, Daly outside him, and then the AP will do the rest to hype him to bits.

The media would do well to learn the difference themselves. I'm sick of Leinster support in general being spoken about the way it has been because a lot of it is off the back of the bile that's spouted on the likes of Facebook. We all know that's not the most accurate representation of the fan base.

The issue is I think we (i.e; self claimed reasoned fans) are the minority.

The baying mob on facebook and the casual sports fans are the majority - and yes, I'm aware that seems to be a bit of a taboo, but everyone knows that guy that doesn't watch a game of rugby but turns up to give their opinion on facebook once the European cup rolls around. The webspace is full of them.

Buer

I don't think Gopperth will be a superstar at Wasps. He's not that calibre of player and never has been. But I would not bet against a good number of "Now why wasn't he ever that good for Leinster?" from people next season.

The_Captain

I've heard Gopperth getting dogs abuse to be honest. People seem to think he's the reason our attacking is so poor.

irishbucsfan

I've given up on Gopperth. He has to take a lot of the responsibility for our inability to play inside out own half this year, and our inability to manage possession outside of it. He's a talented player in some areas of the game but this is as far as he's going to go.

.ak

Deleted User wrote: »

The two pundits most commonly criticising fans are Tony Ward and Alan Quinlan. That should tell you everything about how seriously those accusations should be taken.

Whilst I don't like either as journalists you have to consider what sort of exposure these guys have to 'fans'. It's not sitting in the terrace with thomond2006 and molloyjh anyway, it's reading the comments fields on news sites and twitter feeds.

stephen_n

RobbieRuns wrote: »

You say appointing Leo was a bad decision, but whatever about rugby related discussions, from a clubs perspective putting Leo in there has meant less flak for them. If any other person was on the coaching ticket, they would be getting it in the neck big time!

I sometimes think that MOC gets it all because the club legend coaching the forwards is immune from or at least less likey to be criticised. The results going the way they are will start to change that. If the Champions cup exit comes in the next round and no top 4 finish in the Pro 12, then I expect it will open the flood gates and even the mighty Leo will not be able to avoid the fans wrath.

I think a lot of Leinster fans, myself included, questioned Leo's appointment and felt he should have gone off and learned his trade elsewhere as a coach. I have been critical of our forward play at ruck time and lineouts, which would be Leo's remit. However it's hard to tell with the under resourcing rucks, if that's a sacrifice required to fulfill the bigger game plan and therefore not solely his fault. Also as demonstrated on Sunday, there's a headless chicken element by the players, with 3 standing on one pillar and none on the other, that's hardly a coached thing, though it sure as hell should be reviewed by Leo and corrected. I do think Leo escapes criticism though, the same way Madigan does as opposed to Goperth, the outsider elelement coming into play.

eoferrall

thomond2006 wrote: »

I have spoken to and heard many Leinster fans at matches and am in the "vociferous section" of the RDS and not once have I heard Jimmy Gopperth described anything close to "the root of all evil".

Tony Ward in talking down to supporters shocker. You're a broken record at this stage.

.ak wrote: »

The terrace is a different animal to the rest of the grounds if I'm being honest. There's a bunch of lads behind me in the Anglesea stand that actively groan whenever he's announced or whenever he touches the ball. I've also heard plenty of fans around me bitch about him and moan as to why Madigan isn't playing and we'd be winning trophies if Madigan was starting etc. Some even said they'd be willing to buy Gopperth a flight home! :eek:

And that's the behaved fans in the Anglesea stand... What Ward is probably referring to is the 'fans' on facebook (and yes, I have no problem putting quote marks around fans in this instance. Some of the stuff they spout is vile and it's unfortunate to be associated with them).

I'm the same as .ak, there's an old man behind me and his is ridiculous, almost making me considering moving seats he's that bad.

every mistake made is schoolboy stuff and they should bring in X from X winning senior cup team. Gives out about every little thing. and if a move is pulled off and a clean line break made they were "lucky to get away with it". Whatever "it" is.

And whenever Gopperth gets the ball...jeepers! I think we are near each other as he's said that a few times about paying a flight home for him.

wears school scarfs etc and is part of the "core supporters" according to him. ugh

thomond2006

eoferrall wrote: »

I'm the same as .ak, there's an old man behind me and his is ridiculous, almost making me considering moving seats he's that bad.

every mistake made is schoolboy stuff and they should bring in X from X winning senior cup team. Gives out about every little thing. and if a move is pulled off and a clean line break made they were "lucky to get away with it". Whatever "it" is.

And whenever Gopperth gets the ball...jeepers! I think we are near each other as he's said that a few times about paying a flight home for him.

wears school scarfs etc and is part of the "core supporters" according to him. ugh

Well I'm here to bring a bit of class to the RDS. :pac:

awec

Does the guy in question wear the traditional Leinster garb of a wax cowboy hat and their Leinster jersey over the top of a shirt (preferably a pink shirt)?

irishbucsfan

Is the guy running for election in Dun Laoghaire by any chance?

ssaye2

One Lad I been told in the south stand that leaves furious almost every game around the 60 minute mark win lose or draw slating everything about the team even during the Joe era. Ha

.ak

.ak wrote: »

Whilst I don't like either as journalists you have to consider what sort of exposure these guys have to 'fans'. It's not sitting in the terrace with thomond2006 and molloyjh anyway, it's reading the comments fields on news sites and twitter feeds.

That's fair enough but journo's should be well aware of the difference between facebook / independent.ie comment trolls and actual fans.

Heroditas

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I've given up on Gopperth. He has to take a lot of the responsibility for our inability to play inside out own half this year, and our inability to manage possession outside of it. He's a talented player in some areas of the game but this is as far as he's going to go.

His defence is, in my opinion, quite suspect as well.
A touch of the turnstiles and a tendency to go missing sometimes.

The_Captain

For a bit of comparison, here's what I reckon the strongest match day 22 in 2009 was compared to our strongest match day squad in 2015

15 Isa Nacewa
14 Shane Horgan
13 Brian O'Driscoll
12 Gordon D'Arcy
11 Luke Fitzgerald
10 Felipe Contepomi
9 Chris Whitaker
8 Jamie Heaslip
7 Shane Jennings
6 Rocky Elsom
5 Malcolm O'Kelly
4 Leo Cullen
3 Stan Wright
2 Bernard Jackman
1 Cian Healy 2009 version

16 John Fogarty
17 Ronan McCormack
18 Devin Toner
19 Sean O'Brien
20 Simon Keogh
21 Jonathan Sexton
22 Rob Kearney



15 Rob Kearney
14 Dave Kearney
13 Luke Fitzgerald
12 Ian Madigan
11 Fergus McFadden
10 Jimmy Gopperth
9 Eoin Reddan
8 Jamie Heaslip
7 Sean O'Brien
6 Jordi Murphy
5 Devin Toner
4 Mike McCarthy
3 Mike Ross
2 Sean Cronin
1 Cian Healy 2015 version

16 Richardt Strauss
17 Jack McGrath
18 Michael Bent
19 Kane Douglas
20 Dominic Ryan
21 Isaac Boss
22 Gordon D'arcy
23 Zane Kirchner



Personally, I think 2015 front blows the 2009 out of the water, no contest. Cian Healy has gone from a great carrier with potential into a serious world class prop.

Reddan/Boss are both better than Whitaker

Serious drop in quality in the backline. We have more depth/versatility now, but no one who's up to the 2009 standard.

2015 second is okay. Toner is solid, McCarthy is still playing Connacht level rugby, and is pretty much at retirement age. No depth here at all

For the backrow, we were lucky to get what was probably the best season of Elsom's life out of him. He was a beast. 2009 backrow probably edges it with individual quality. But we have a lot more depth there now. Probably too much to be honest, because now we have talented guys not even making the 23.




I think it's a better comparison than comparing today's team to Schmidt's Leinster.
Cheika and MOC have a lot of similarities in that they both advocate strong defence first and foremost, and Cheikas team when it was settled wasn't a free-flowing try scoring side, it was a brutal counter-rucking and hard yards side.


If Cheika was in charge of the 2015 team, would they be playing better? I think so. The defence would be shored up, the boys would be shouted at until they had nightmares and instead of a backline flicking the ball back and forth aimlessly, you'd see tight pods of forward heavy play.

Big Nelly

.ak wrote: »

The terrace is a different animal to the rest of the grounds if I'm being honest. There's a bunch of lads behind me in the Anglesea stand that actively groan whenever he's announced or whenever he touches the ball. I've also heard plenty of fans around me bitch about him and moan as to why Madigan isn't playing and we'd be winning trophies if Madigan was starting etc. Some even said they'd be willing to buy Gopperth a flight home! :eek:

And that's the behaved fans in the Anglesea stand... What Ward is probably referring to is the 'fans' on facebook (and yes, I have no problem putting quote marks around fans in this instance. Some of the stuff they spout is vile and it's unfortunate to be associated with them).

Which Angelsea terrace you in? I do admit I have missed a few games this year but never heard anything like this. one of the last game I made there was a few shouts of "kick" everytime Gopperth touched the ball but this was from the seats in Angelsea and it was when any player touched the ball...Kircher/Kearney etc

sydthebeat

people tend to forget Jimmy Gopperth was selected to take over from Jonny Wilkinson at Newcastle AND Johnny Sexton at Leinster