Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, that's not the rationale. Someone said we should compare this season with 2009, so I did.

Also, our form was very similar under Cheika to how it is this season, completely unpredictable, which is entirely the point.

Our form this season is very predictable though???

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

Our form this season is very predictable though???

It hasn't been really, unless you're just talking about the last few games.

We've turned up some very good patches this season.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Our form this season is very predictable though???

It's far from predictable. Look at how we played against Ulster. Then look at the Dragons game at home. Then the first half of the Dragons game away. Then the Bath game. We've been all over the shop.

total former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's far from predictable. Look at how we played against Ulster. Then look at the Dragons game at home. Then the first half of the Dragons game away. Then the Bath game. We've been all over the shop.

So if everyone is predicting that we'll lose this weekend, and we've been really unpredictable, we will therefore win on Sunday.

QED bitches.

irishbucsfan

total former wrote: »

So if everyone is predicting that we'll lose this weekend, and we've been really unpredictable, we will therefore win on Sunday.

QED bitches.

Well in 2009 I already had my temporary Munster jersey sourced so I could support them over in Edinburgh, I was so sure they'd be there, I picked it up the morning of the semi final from my mate who had come up for the game and then dropped it back off to him in Kiely's afterwards with a big grin on my face...

Quint2010

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well in 2009 I already had my temporary Munster jersey sourced so I could support them over in Edinburgh, I was so sure they'd be there, I picked it up the morning of the semi final from my mate who had come up for the game and then dropped it back off to him in Kiely's afterwards with a big grin on my face...

Shame on you! Resign!

irishbucsfan

Quint2010 wrote: »

Shame on you! Resign!

Ah to explain I go to every final and our family have very close connections with the Tigers meaning my auld lad would be wearing Tigers gear, so I thought I needed to even things up lest we get labelled as traitors or bad fans for being Irish lads in Edinburgh wearing the wrong gear!

The_Captain

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, that's not the rationale. Someone said we should compare this season with 2009, so I did.

Also, our form was very similar under Cheika to how it is this season, completely unpredictable, which is entirely the point.

That's nonsense. Our form under Cheika wasn't unpredictable. As I pointed out, it was a defence oriented gameplan, and in 2009 we conceded the fewest points of all teams in the Heineken Cup group stages, only Munster conceded fewer points in the Celtic League.

To say the League wasn't competitive shows how little you know. Edinburgh were a very strong team then, and we always seemed to lose to them. They had a great record of winning home games. Munster were rampaging, a class above everyone else for most of the season, and Scarlets, Ospreys and Cardiff were all very competitive. The League is more competitive now, it's just that the competitive teams in 2015 aren't the same as the competitive teams in 2009

Cheika was probably deeply unpopular because 2008/2009 seemed to be the year that rugby took off. Everyone loved Munster and the 'ladyboys' were awful, Lunsters who'd watched rugby for all of ten minutes had opinions on how we were a bunch of posh boys with no grit and they'd relate better to dockers sons from Limerick.

Through all this, Cheika quietly built up a great team who were incredible defensively and animals at the breakdown. He had a gameplan, he had a direction he wanted to take the team, and he had the skills to take them there.

Heroditas

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah to explain I go to every final and our family have very close connections with the Tigers meaning my auld lad would be wearing Tigers gear, so I thought I needed to even things up lest we get labelled as traitors or bad fans for being Irish lads in Edinburgh wearing the wrong gear!

Tigers gear, eh?
A feckin' closet Tigers fan amongst us. The defending of MOC makes sense now. I bet you have a picture of Cockerill beside your computer

irishbucsfan

The_Captain wrote: »

That's nonsense. Our form under Cheika wasn't unpredictable. As I pointed out, it was a defence oriented gameplan, and in 2009 we conceded the fewest points of all teams in the Heineken Cup group stages, only Munster conceded fewer points in the Celtic League.

Well we lost to Connacht, got nilled by Munster at home, lost to others, and then beat all the other good teams in the ML and beat Wasps, Munster and Tigers in Europe.

If we were predictable, then that does nothing to explain the earlier BBC quote, again it was:

Under-pressure Leinster coach Michael Cheika will be mightily relieved at his team's qualification but on the evidence of this display, they are unlikely to progress much further in the competition.

irishbucsfan

Just remembered another similarity, we had won the Celtic League the season before! There's a lot of those weird similarities.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Just remembered another similarity, we had won the Celtic League the season before! There's a lot of those weird similarities.

The main difference being we had some really good performances that season as well. Oh and we won over 60% of our games in the league (nearly twice as many as we lost), and that was before the Italians joined. So there was at least some evidence to point to an ability to put in a big performance against Munster.

The talk of the time was more about how good Munster were as well. Now it's about how bad we are. Toulon aren't even close to their best form at the moment after all.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

The main difference being we had some really good performances that season as well. Oh and we won over 60% of our games in the league (nearly twice as many as we lost), and that was before the Italians joined. So there was at least some evidence to point to an ability to put in a big performance against Munster.

The talk of the time was more about how good Munster were as well. Now it's about how bad we are. Toulon aren't even close to their best form at the moment after all.

What really good performance did we put in before the 6 Nations? I don't remember anything particular outstanding. In fact the only other good performance I remember from that season was the Scarlets game the week after the Munster one, when we tore them apart.

Winning 60% of our games that season was just as underwhelming as this season, because the league was far less competitive. There's even an archived Harpin on Rugby blog that called the league "meaningless", and an interestingly accurate post on boards.ie saying that we should be taking advantage of how weak the league was back then, because it would become more difficult in future to win trophies.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What really good performance did we put in before the 6 Nations? I don't remember anything particular outstanding. In fact the only other good performance I remember from that season was the Scarlets game the week after the Munster one, when we tore them apart.

Winning 60% of our games that season was just as underwhelming as this season, because the league was far less competitive. There's even an archived Harpin on Rugby blog that called the league "meaningless", and an interestingly accurate post on boards.ie saying that we should be taking advantage of how weak the league was back then, because it would become more difficult in future to win trophies.

How about Wasps and Castres in the RDS?

As for the competitiveness of the league we now have 4 games against Italian opposition that should all be guaranteed wins and we have better depth than ever before which both help to balance out the increased competitiveness in the league.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

How about Wasps and Castres in the RDS?

As for the competitiveness of the league we now have 4 games against Italian opposition that should all be guaranteed wins and we have better depth than ever before which both help to balance out the increased competitiveness in the league.

I don't get the first point?

The Italian teams are more competitive now than some of the teams who would show up to the RDS back then. The league was meaningless to anyone who wasn't capable of finishing first, which was generally everyone except the top 2 or 3 by new year.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't get the first point?

They were good performances pre-6 Nations in the 05-06 season.

total former

There's an interesting article in the Irish Times today by Andy McGeady, doesn't seem to be on the website.

The headline is "Leinster are almost Ireland in disguise - except for Sexton, Murray and victories"

There are some interesting stats which he uses to liken our play to Ireland's; that we don't offload but we don't concede penalties, and most interestingly that only Toulon were better in Europe at generating quick ruck ball. Where things fall apart, as he puts it, is that Gopperth is not Sexton and Boss/Reddan is not Murray, i.e. we don't have the precision kicking game that Ireland do.

Most frustratingly though, apparently in 10 of the 12 games we've failed to win this season, we've been leading at some point in the second half (the Munster games being the exception) only to let it slip. That's bananas. Why is this happening? Well, I've been saying all season we lack leaders on the pitch, to make decisions in real time and to right the ship if we start to struggle, case in point being last Sunday. Likewise, game management from our half backs is erratic at best and can compound the pressure put on us by opponents. One thing that has struck me too over the course of the season is MOC's slowness to make substitutions, e.g. last weekend Reddan and Fanning probably shouldn't have been on the pitch when they made crucial errors.

The good news is that I think this is all fixable. Sexton and Nacewa will bring a mental toughness to the side which just doesn't seem to be there at the moment, and Sexton's game management is obviously a plus. Whether MOC begins to use his subs more, we'll have to wait and see next season I suppose.

.ak

So if we win can we start the 'Are you Ireland in disguise' chants?

awec

How many games has Heaslip missed for Leinster this season?

ssaye2

awec wrote: »

How many games has Heaslip missed for Leinster this season?

12

Heaslip Played 14
Gopperth 26


Healy played 7
SOB 2
RK 12

total former

awec wrote: »

How many games has Heaslip missed for Leinster this season?

He's played 13+1 of our 26 matches.

Of those 14 he's played, we've won 10, lost three and drawn one (75% success).

Of the 12 he's missed, we've won four, lost five and drawn three (46% success).

.ak

total former wrote: »

There's an interesting article in the Irish Times today by Andy McGeady, doesn't seem to be on the website.

The headline is "Leinster are almost Ireland in disguise - except for Sexton, Murray and victories"

There are some interesting stats which he uses to liken our play to Ireland's; that we don't offload but we don't concede penalties, and most interestingly that only Toulon were better in Europe at generating quick ruck ball. Where things fall apart, as he puts it, is that Gopperth is not Sexton and Boss/Reddan is not Murray, i.e. we don't have the precision kicking game that Ireland do.

Most frustratingly though, apparently in 10 of the 12 games we've failed to win this season, we've been leading at some point in the second half (the Munster games being the exception) only to let it slip. That's bananas. Why is this happening? Well, I've been saying all season we lack leaders on the pitch, to make decisions in real time and to right the ship if we start to struggle, case in point being last Sunday. Likewise, game management from our half backs is erratic at best and can compound the pressure put on us by opponents. One thing that has struck me too over the course of the season is MOC's slowness to make substitutions, e.g. last weekend Reddan and Fanning probably shouldn't have been on the pitch when they made crucial errors.

The good news is that I think this is all fixable. Sexton and Nacewa will bring a mental toughness to the side which just doesn't seem to be there at the moment, and Sexton's game management is obviously a plus. Whether MOC begins to use his subs more, we'll have to wait and see next season I suppose.

Some good points there. I would also add tactically we change shape if we're trying to hold onto a lead. There's a lot of territorial kicking used in the 2nd half of games when we're leading, only to provide a poor kick chase. There was one particularly awful one against Dragons last week. I think there's good evidence to suggest trying to grind out a win with ball in hand is dangerous (see Racing v Sarries quarter final) and honestly I think kicking IS the right option but we're just not accurate enough with our main kickers (Boss, Reddan, Gopperth, Madigan and Kearney are all fairly poor with the boot currently).

matthew8

Leinster's kicking has been so bad for so long that you do have to question why the coaches persist with the tactic. I suppose as an exit strategy you don't have much choice but in positions like just inside our 10 we may just be better off going through the phases.

total former

.ak wrote: »

Some good points there. I would also add tactically we change shape if we're trying to hold onto a lead. There's a lot of territorial kicking used in the 2nd half of games when we're leading, only to provide a poor kick chase. There was one particularly awful one against Dragons last week. I think there's good evidence to suggest trying to grind out a win with ball in hand is dangerous (see Racing v Sarries quarter final) and honestly I think kicking IS the right option but we're just not accurate enough with our main kickers (Boss, Reddan, Gopperth, Madigan and Kearney are all fairly poor with the boot currently).

I thought Gopperth's kicking was actually much improved at the weekend. He got horribly unlucky with that one that went long, and the kick you're referring to above wasn't in itself a bad kick and I think Gopperth had no other choices, just no one chased after it and that turned it into an awful kick. Overall though, it was good.

.ak

total former wrote: »

I thought Gopperth's kicking was actually much improved at the weekend. He got horribly unlucky with that one that went long, and the kick you're referring to above wasn't in itself a bad kick and I think Gopperth had no other choices, just no one chased after it and that turned it into an awful kick. Overall though, it was good.

He had two kicks that were very unlucky, both going past the dead ball line and back to a scrum in around our 22. The bounce of the ball was horribly cruel in both times. But he did have some really poor kicks in that game, and he's had some before. His kicking from hand is a poor part of his game, it's worse than Madigan's and he's very poor.

molloyjh

Don't forget the penalty that he sliced as well. He was quite mixed generally on Sunday.

Although wasn't one of those long kicks out on the full from Kirchner, where he landed it way too far infield? Gopperths one was nowhere near as bad. He was a couple of metres away from it being an absolutely perfect kick. In that wind and with the bounce it got it's hard to complain too much about it. As you said it was unlucky.

Buer

He kicked one away later in the game badly but it very much looked like Reddan hit him with an unexpected pass which he wasn't expecting and was in a bad position to receive. He didn't have anyone close to him to use and ended up hacking it away. The alternative was get smashed and turned over.

Larbre34

Leinster might be a lot of Ireland in disguise, but Ireland couldnt much cope with Toulon's back row either, and in terms of keeping out from under the kosh, we dont have nearly the means to replicate Sextons kicking prowess

stephen_n

total former wrote: »

Most frustratingly though, apparently in 10 of the 12 games we've failed to win this season, we've been leading at some point in the second half (the Munster games being the exception) only to let it slip. That's bananas. Why is this happening? Well, I've been saying all season we lack leaders on the pitch, to make decisions in real time and to right the ship if we start to struggle, case in point being last Sunday. Likewise, game management from our half backs is erratic at best and can compound the pressure put on us by opponents. One thing that has struck me too over the course of the season is MOC's slowness to make substitutions, e.g. last weekend Reddan and Fanning probably shouldn't have been on the pitch when they made crucial errors.

.

Personally I think that's an over simplification of what happens, the difference between Ireland and Leinster isn't just the halfbacks or lack of leadership, yes there's a big drop down in quality between Sexton and Goperth or Reddan and Murray but when Reddan came on for Ireland that was far less noticable. Game management involves using the options available, it's hard to manage anything if after 3 phases you have players standing as first receivers and I mean standing. A consistent problem all season is players taking the ball standing still and getting hit behind the gain line, you may say that's poor decision making by the scrumhalf, I'd say it's lack of patterns, we know how to get the ball through 3 phases, then it's "heads up rugby". With Ireland it takes a lot more phases to reach that point, the variations have been worked through, the attacking pods are in place and players know where they have to be for the next phase. Yes our halfbacks have been poor at times but it's hard to pick good options when you don't have runners.

stephen_n

.ak wrote: »

He had two kicks that were very unlucky, both going past the dead ball line and back to a scrum in around our 22. The bounce of the ball was horribly cruel in both times. But he did have some really poor kicks in that game, and he's had some before. His kicking from hand is a poor part of his game, it's worse than Madigan's and he's very poor.

Kirchner kicked one of those didn't he? or was that another one.