Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

I still can't believe we didn't send a full strength team out to the dragons. I'm fairly distraught that the season is effectively over.

Larbre34

Ward is becoming a serious irritation at this point.

Thinly veiled amateur era bigotry aside, he fails to acknowledge that the feeling in the grandstands is that the coaching ethos is poorly serving both the players and the support. Quality players are being let down by percentage rugby, lack of ownership and innovation and a few other intangibles.

The fans just want to see the potential we know is there and that frankly we fund to the tune of €4million+ every year. We have a right to an opinion at least.

'New age fans' and 'self-righteous experts' is beneath you Tony. Why dont you stay off Twitter and go sit in the grandstand for the last few games of the season?

shuffol

molloyjh wrote: »

Sexton won't be here for around half of the season. And he'll only be back in the door and he'll be playing in Europe. I think there's way to much reliance on Sexton coming back and making everything ok. He won't help our league season, which is where most of our issues have been this season. He won't enable us to suddenly get the most out of the wider squad either, which has been another key failing. Isa may have some impacts here but he's 2 years out of the game and will be another reason why a young Academy back won't get a shot to step up. If you're not enabling your younger players or your wider squad and if there is a clear distinction between first string, second string and Academy then the squad as a whole won't function as well.

I can see no way that MOCs contract will be extended unless he can the most out of our entire squad. Fail to do this and we'll have another poor showing in the league and that will be that.

I said this before but people are picturing the Sexton that plays outside Murray now or Reddan of 2/3 years ago, I don't think any of our scrumhalves next season will be able to deliver him close to the standard of service that they can/could. He'll certainly be a big improvement but I don't think to the extent people envisage.

total former

Deleted User wrote: »

I still can't believe we didn't send a full strength team out to the dragons. I'm fairly distraught that the season is effectively over.

While the result was a kick in the nuts, I think MOC has been pretty much vindicated in his team selection for that game.

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

While the result was a kick in the nuts, I think MOC has been pretty much vindicated in his team selection for that game.

Just out of curiosity how do you think he's been vindicated? I agreed (and still agree) with the starting XV he selected against Dragons but seeing as we lost both that game and the Toulon game I don't see how the decision has been vindicated?

awec

Ye lost both games. Not exactly vindication.

total former

molloyjh wrote: »

Just out of curiosity how do you think he's been vindicated? I agreed (and still agree) with the starting XV he selected against Dragons but seeing as we lost both that game and the Toulon game I don't see how the decision has been vindicated?

The side he selected to go to the Dragons was in absolute cruise control after 55-60 minutes and should have seen the game out comfortably. We won't rehash the arguments about why they lost but it was not down to the team selection.

The side that then went out against Toulon performed far beyond most people's expectations. Would they have had enough in the tank to go 100 minutes against Toulon (who were all rested the previous weekend) if they'd played in Newport?

And even if we'd won in Newport, we'd still need a win in Ravenkinghillspan for which we'll need as many first-teamers as possible.

So I think MOC has to shoulder some of the blame for the loss in Newport for his coaching, but his team selections have been spot on.

gamma001

If Teo hadn't of got that yellow we probably would have seen out the dragons game and possibly got a TBP; and if gothperth, madigan or kearney had of slotted the three points we would have won in toulon. Extremely fine margins and given his options the selections were definitely vindicated IMO.

Killser

Ward gives me a pain in the face! This notion that we shouldnt expect to win trophies every year - why the hell not, I guarantee you the squad 'expect' to win trophies every year, they are professional players used to achieving at the highest level. If you dont expect to win at the start of the season, what's the point in training, or pushing yourself in a game?

As for the argument that it should be great to watch - sorry, what's wrong with that, I wouldn't watch a crappy movie every week. This argument that 'we' were spolit and we should suck it up is bullc**p, is there something wrong with wanting your team to play well - all the best teams play well, hardly see the NZ team playing poorly do ya?

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

The side he selected to go to the Dragons was in absolute cruise control after 55-60 minutes and should have seen the game out comfortably. We won't rehash the arguments about why they lost but it was not down to the team selection.

The side that then went out against Toulon performed far beyond most people's expectations. Would they have had enough in the tank to go 100 minutes against Toulon (who were all rested the previous weekend) if they'd played in Newport?

And even if we'd won in Newport, we'd still need a win in Ravenkinghillspan for which we'll need as many first-teamers as possible.

So I think MOC has to shoulder some of the blame for the loss in Newport for his coaching, but his team selections have been spot on.

I fully agree with the logic and the selections. However they are only really vindicated if the results go our way. Thus far 2 of 3 haven't. If we make the play-offs because we beat Ulster and go on a decent run of performances then I think it can be said to be vindicated, but as of right now I think that choice of wording is pushing it.

FWIW I think he made the right calls and things just didn't pan out. Which happens. I wouldn't blame the selection decisions for anything.

its_phil

Killser wrote: »

Ward gives me a pain in the face! This notion that we shouldnt expect to win trophies every year - why the hell not, I guarantee you the squad 'expect' to win trophies every year, they are professional players used to achieving at the highest level. If you dont expect to win at the start of the season, what's the point in training, or pushing yourself in a game?

As for the argument that it should be great to watch - sorry, what's wrong with that, I wouldn't watch a crappy movie every week. This argument that 'we' were spolit and we should suck it up is bullc**p, is there something wrong with wanting your team to play well - all the best teams play well, hardly see the NZ team playing poorly do ya?

Players are expected to think like that, they live in a bubble where that mindset is expected in order to succeed. Supporters on the other hand are not the same as players and should be able to take a step back and realise you can't win one of the two trophies every year. It doesn't matter what sport it is, it's ridiculously difficult and it's greedy of some supporters if they really think they are entitled to a trophy parade at the end of every season.

Big Nelly

Just listening to the Off the Ball rugby podcast, most people on here I would not advise you to listen to it....

EOS and Trevor Hogan dont seem to agree with the MOC posse

sydthebeat

Killser wrote: »

..... the squad 'expect' to win trophies every year, they are professional players used to achieving at the highest level. If you dont expect to win at the start of the season, what's the point in training, or pushing yourself in a game?
?

there are at least 5 squads in the pro 12 that think in this very way
they cant all be satisfied can they?

there a difference between squad 'season goals' and fans and medias expectations.

ssaye2

http://www.the42.ie/sean-obrien-wayne-barnes-referee-leinster-toulon-2060812-Apr2015/

Flipper22

molloyjh wrote: »

Just out of curiosity how do you think he's been vindicated? I agreed (and still agree) with the starting XV he selected against Dragons but seeing as we lost both that game and the Toulon game I don't see how the decision has been vindicated?

Just because it didn't work out as hoped doesn't mean the selection decisions weren't vindicated. If we could rewind two weeks I'm sure he'd pick the same teams again, and rightly so.

RuggieBear

ssaye2 wrote: »

http://www.the42.ie/sean-obrien-wayne-barnes-referee-leinster-toulon-2060812-Apr2015/

he should leave the bitching about Barnes to me us tbh.

stephen_n

Firstly MOC was never going anywhere regardless of Sunday, at this stage on field performances wouldn't dictate his contract being cut a year early. In terms of the coaches, Leo came out best out of Sundays performance as our Line out both defense and attack were top notch and so was the breakdown, yes this is influenced by the players carrying it out but still showed we are capeable of setting up properly.

I think some posters are too hopeful of what Sexton can bring to us, he is still going to be served by Boss or Reddan and though Boss has found form, Reddan has lost all his, it's fair to say there's a high chance given their age, that's a trend which will continue. Outside him we have huge difficulty with the players not fixing defenders and eating up space. Johnny will absolutely fix our territorial game and help get us in the position to score tries but he can't fix that.

There is definitely a strong argument to be made at this stage for a dedicated backs coach, though of course that depends on who's available but there's not much point having a dominant pack if your backline loses all the territory they gain.

its_phil

RuggieBear wrote: »

he should leave the bitching about Barnes to me us tbh.

The level of officiating in European rugby outside of Owens is dreadful and Barnes interpretation of the breakdown doesn't allow a game to flow whatsoever for either side. Some criticism is badly needed. Also delighted SOB pointing out that review system doesn't work.

RuggieBear

its_phil wrote: »

The level of officiating in European rugby outside of Owens is dreadful and Barnes interpretation of the breakdown doesn't allow a game to flow whatsoever for either side. Some criticism is badly needed.

Also delighted SOB pointing out that review system doesn't work.

I don't disagree but SOB shouldn't be the one doing it. It should be communicated via the Leinster/IRFU management and especially not in the public eye.

anything in public should be by us New-age fans, self-righteous experts

justsomebloke

RuggieBear wrote: »

I don't disagree but SOB shouldn't be the one doing it. It should be communicated via the Leinster/IRFU management and especially not in the public eye.

agreed, having a ref who holds a grugde about one of your players is never going to go well for you

RuggieBear

Having said that...it is Barnes. Who the **** knows how he's going to interpret the breakdown from one ruck to another.

ssaye2

http://www.the42.ie/leinster-isa-nacewa-matt-oconnor-2060883-Apr2015/

total former

In fairness, it's the breakdown, it's an absolute free for all at the best of times. If the ref pings every offence, then he's a finicky stickler who just loves being the centre of attention. If he lets things go, well then he obviously doesn't know the rules, how could he not see that?? and so forth.

I don't think we were remotely hard done by on Sunday, maybe you can complain about one or two calls but that's the nature of the game. The breakdown was a good contest and seemed to me to be reasonably fair, I'd say Leinster came out marginally on top if anything.

Barnes is a very good ref, showed it again on Sunday.

molloyjh

Flipper22 wrote: »

Just because it didn't work out as hoped doesn't mean the selection decisions weren't vindicated. If we could rewind two weeks I'm sure he'd pick the same teams again, and rightly so.

I think you're missing the point I'm making. I think the selections were right and even though they didn't work out I'd back them again tomorrow myself.

However vindication means that he was proven to have made the right calls by subsequent events. What proof is there that this is the case if we lost both games? To me there is none. That doesn't mean the calls were wrong, just that they weren't proven to be right.

Uriel.

total former wrote: »

In fairness, it's the breakdown, it's an absolute free for all at the best of times. If the ref pings every offence, then he's a finicky stickler who just loves being the centre of attention. If he lets things go, well then he obviously doesn't know the rules, how could he not see that?? and so forth.

I don't think we were remotely hard done by on Sunday, maybe you can complain about one or two calls but that's the nature of the game. The breakdown was a good contest and seemed to me to be reasonably fair, I'd say Leinster came out marginally on top if anything.

Barnes is a very good ref, showed it again on Sunday.

You're right it is tough to get the balance right in terms of finickiness and allowing a free flowing game. Ultimately, IMO it comes down to consistency. Barnes, for example, was not consistent in the Wales v Ireland game in the 6N.

However, by and large, he was very good on Sunday and we certainly didn't lose the game because of him.

TommyOM

I have absolutely no issues with Barnes reffing, I thought he was fantastic. My only gripe is that Suta definitely should have seen potentially a red for his choke hold on Strauss. Strauss was tapping out frantically meaning he was about to close conciousness and Suta still held on to choke. If that was an MMA fight the ref would intervene the moment the opposite fighter taps. I thought it was incredibly dangerous and downright nasty and I really hope he is cited because of it.

irishbucsfan

stephen_n wrote: »

Firstly MOC was never going anywhere regardless of Sunday, at this stage on field performances wouldn't dictate his contract being cut a year early. In terms of the coaches, Leo came out best out of Sundays performance as our Line out both defense and attack were top notch and so was the breakdown, yes this is influenced by the players carrying it out but still showed we are capeable of setting up properly.

I think some posters are too hopeful of what Sexton can bring to us, he is still going to be served by Boss or Reddan and though Boss has found form, Reddan has lost all his, it's fair to say there's a high chance given their age, that's a trend which will continue. Outside him we have huge difficulty with the players not fixing defenders and eating up space. Johnny will absolutely fix our territorial game and help get us in the position to score tries but he can't fix that.

There is definitely a strong argument to be made at this stage for a dedicated backs coach, though of course that depends on who's available but there's not much point having a dominant pack if your backline loses all the territory they gain.

There is no chance of Leinster employing a dedicated backs coach unless MOC has turned into a completely different person since his departure from Leicester

gamma001

Uriel. wrote: »

You're right it is tough to get the balance right in terms of finickiness and allowing a free flowing game. Ultimately, IMO it comes down to consistency. Barnes, for example, was not consistent in the Wales v Ireland game in the 6N.

Well there is two types of consistency at play here. Consistency in reffing each of the teams fairly, and consistency in what is deemed to be foul play from 0 minutes to 80 minutes. It is more so the latter that I think people have a problem with (I don't think anyone can say he is biased). He seems to be really picky at the start and let it be a free for all around the breakdown towards the end of a game which is frustrating to say the least.

JPCN1

First Up wrote: »

Great performance is stretching it. Full marks for effort (what else should we expect?) But a serious shortage of skill and technique in numerous areas was the cause of the loss and we really can't complain.
Sorry to say but Leinster were by a wide margin the least impressive of the four semi finalists.

Not by a wide margin. Our pack played very well and could live with any of them but our backs were clueless I'll grant.

Sexton coming back will make a huge difference and our main priorities are a scrum half and a second row.

thomond2006

Marty Moore needs another shoulder surgery.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro12/shoulder-surgery-likely-to-end-marty-moore-s-season-with-leinster-1.2184125?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter