Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

thomond2006

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Leinster have only won twice on the road in the Pro12 this season. A win up in Ravenhill is a huge ask.

I know.

molloyjh

Podge_irl wrote: »

I, and others, question how much of an expense to the national side it would really be though.

I think the process is too restrictive and on top of that if it discourages us from being able to hire top level coaching talent at the provinces I think that will hurt Ireland in the long run as well.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't see what the "expense" to the national side is at all. Our players don't seem to be injured any less than any of our local rivals and the conditioning doesn't seem to be massively different. It doesn't prolong player's careers, as we've seen. If I was someone like Flannery or Ferris I'd look back with regret at games missed before being forced to retire anyway. It's completely in the interests of the provinces for their players to remain healthy anyway, it's not like teams who aren't being held to a player welfare scheme don't treat their players well.

https://balls.ie/rugby/268185-tommy-bowe-player-welfare/

Tommy Bowe wrote:

When I was at the Ospreys, certainly the first two years, I played a huge amount; I was able to play week on week but really, after two years, I felt my body starting to break down a bit from 30 plus games.

Since I have come back to Ireland, the player management system has suited me amazingly. The way they look after players, like that break between the Six Nations, has benefited me massively. It’s what keeps players in Ireland.

padser

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Leinster have only won twice on the road in the Pro12 this season. A win up in Ravenhill is a huge ask.

I had to go to check this upon reading it. My gut reaction was "that couldn't be true".

But it is, we have besten Zebre, Cardiff Blues and Castres away from home all season, in every competition. Not a single other team.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

https://balls.ie/rugby/268185-tommy-bowe-player-welfare/

Yeah, I'm not sure how great an example Bowe is during those days. 30+ games a season (is that correct?) is a lot to get through considering the intensity of international rugby. Gopperth will hit 30 this season, but that's obviously not an example of how any other Leinster player is used.

Clearlier

Podge_irl wrote: »

I, and others, question how much of an expense to the national side it would really be though.

I think the process is too restrictive and on top of that if it discourages us from being able to hire top level coaching talent at the provinces I think that will hurt Ireland in the long run as well.

I don't think that it will restrict our ability to recruit coaches. There are very, very few top level coaches who have done really well at more than one club. Leinster are much better off seeking a rough diamond than a polished stone when it comes to coaches.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't see what the "expense" to the national side is at all. Our players don't seem to be injured any less than any of our local rivals and the conditioning doesn't seem to be massively different. It doesn't prolong player's careers, as we've seen. If I was someone like Flannery or Ferris I'd look back with regret at games missed before being forced to retire anyway. It's completely in the interests of the provinces for their players to remain healthy anyway, it's not like teams who aren't being held to a player welfare scheme don't treat their players well.

Well you move on to another one of my bugbears here! We had a period in the second half of the 00's when Liam Hennessy was in charge of S&C where the national squad's fitness was significantly under the control of the national teams. One of the first changes that Kidney made when he took charge of the national team was to devolve responsibility for that to the provinces.

With the very notable exception of the 2007 RWC Ireland were consistently the fittest team against whoever they played at international level. We also had lower injury rates than our opposition - I'm confident that those two were linked.

Now, rugby has moved enormously in the past decade, the players are bigger, the hits are bigger and knowledge of how to physically prepare players for rugby is much more widely spread so the question as to how beneficial centrally controlling the fitness of the national squad would be is a valid one. In a slightly vicious circle point the number of injuries has meant that the national squad is no longer 25-30 players and more like 35-40 which means that a centrally controlled plan would have a bigger impact than it did ten years ago.

There's no doubt in my mind that a player welfare program is essential to the continued success of the provinces and the national side and will enable us to continue to punch above our weight for a bit longer than we might otherwise. That's not to suggest that there isn't room for improvement - there have been a couple of occasions when a player has been rested after just returning following a long injury that didn't seem sensible - somtimes a run of games is required and if the number of games played in a season is used as a blunt instrument rather than as a piece of information in a nuanced understanding of the big picture then that clearly should be improved on. I know that the S&C teams already do a lot of analysis to enable early identification of potential problems and identify areas to focus on but I expect that this is an area in which sport will develop enormously over the next decade. This kind of information will be gold as part of a player welfare programme.

To get back to the original point my concern is that MOC appears to focus on player welfare as a problem rather than an opportunity, as a reason for failure rather than the source of future success. IMO it's the wrong attitude to have, he's sending out a bad message to the squad and he's spending time on something he doesn't control rather than the many things he can. All that said I remain on the fence about MOC. If, with Sexton back we don't make a significant improvement (and that's as much about what Sexton brings to the squad as a leader as well as a player) next season then he clearly won't have succeeded. Yes, the RWC will have an impact but there will always be excuses to be found - I'd like to see a bit more focus on the solutions.

Killser

Clearlier wrote: »

...... If, with Sexton back we don't make a significant improvement (and that's as much about what Sexton brings to the squad as a leader as well as a player) next season then he clearly won't have succeeded. Yes, the RWC will have an impact but there will always be excuses to be found - I'd like to see a bit more focus on the solutions.

Exactly, an impact - and this should be seen by a coach as a positive thing. Get other players to stand up and make themselves counted, ALL other Pro12 teams will have the same issue. We have an excellent Academy, get them working for the team!

wicklowwonder

LEINSTER matchday 23 v Ulster : 15.Rob Kearney 14. Zane Kirchner 13. Ben Te'o 12. Gordon D'Arcy 11. Luke Fitzgerald 10. Jimmy Gopperth 9. Isaac Boss
1. Cian Healy 2. Richardt Strauss 3. Mike Ross 4. Devin Toner 5. Mike McCarthy 6. Sean O'Brien 7. Dominic Ryan 8. Jamie Heaslip CAPTAIN
16. Sean Cronin 17. Jack McGrath 18. Tadhg Furlong 19. Ben Marshall 20. Jordi Murphy 21. Eoin Reddan 22. Ian Madigan 23. Darragh Fanning

awec

Madigan dropped?

Teferi

Yeah, I think Madigan to the bench is an issue. His confidence will be hurting after last week, I think Matt should have backed him for this week to show faith.

ktulu123

Stupid decision to drop Madigan, would love to see the coach back him & put him at 10. I prefer the Darcy/Te'o midfield though. Would also have Cronin in instead of strauss but other than that the team is fine.

ssaye2

ktulu123 wrote: »

Stupid decision to drop Madigan, would love to see the coach back him & put him at 10. I prefer the Darcy/Te'o midfield though. Would also have Cronin in instead of strauss but other than that the team is fine.

Maybe him and the subs are just bollocked tired more than others

Buer

He's in bad form and probably low on confidence. An all or nothing game isn't where he needs to be gambled on when you've got D'Arcy raring to go after playing so well against Ulster already.

ktulu123

ssaye2 wrote: »

Maybe him and the subs are just bollocked tired more than others

Possibly, more so with Cronin & Jordi I would imagine.

ulster_Beef

We'll take Madigan off your heads

molloyjh

What's the story with Dave Kearney?

Madigan to the bench was inevitable, but Jimmy has played the full game in all but 2 games since the start of the calendar year and started all but 1. I really hope he's not asked to play the full 80 yet again. Unfortunately he will be though as Mads will not come on at 10.

ulster_Beef

Ulster: L Ludik; T Bowe, J Payne, D Cave, C Gilroy; P Jackson, R Pienaar; C Black, R Best (capt), W Herbst, D Tuohy, F Van der Merwe, I Henderson, C Henry, R Wilson.

Thatll do

ssaye2

molloyjh wrote: »

What's the story with Dave Kearney?

Madigan to the bench was inevitable, but Jimmy has played the full game in all but 2 games since the start of the calendar year and started all but 1. I really hope he's not asked to play the full 80 yet again. Unfortunately he will be though as Mads will not come on at 10.

Matt O'Connor also confirmed this morning that the only fitness question mark that remained after the weekend game against Toulon in relation to Marty Moore has also been clarified with a scan on his shoulder confirming that he will need surgery. A keyhole procedure will take place next Monday morning for a laberal repair to his left shoulder which will keep him sidelined for 12 weeks.

Finally O'Connor revealed that Dave Kearney has a hip flexor strain and is ruled out of selection this weekend but that he should be back in the mix for the visit of Treviso on the 8th May to the RDS.

ssaye2

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/news/13520.php

https://mobile.twitter.com/leinsterrugby/status/591199918779408384

Mahatma Geansai

Madigan's kicking has been the single thing keeping him in the side. Dropping him for D'Arcy is the right decision.

ssaye2

Ulster
4/9

Draw
20/1

Leinster
7/4


From PP

CatFromHue

padser wrote: »

I had to go to check this upon reading it. My gut reaction was "that couldn't be true".

But it is, we have besten Zebre, Cardiff Blues and Castres away from home all season, in every competition. Not a single other team.

For the Pro12 this is easily our strongest team we've put out from any of the away games we lost.

For example this is the team we sent to Glasgow in Round 1

15: Zane Kirchner
14: Fergus McFadden
13: Brendan Macken
12: Noel Reid (Ian Madigan, 1)
11: Darragh Fanning
10: Jimmy Gopperth
9: Isaac Boss (Luke McGrath, 65)
1: Cian Healy (Jack McGrath, 46)
2: Sean Cronin (Bryan Byrne, 68)
3: Mike Ross (Tadhg Furlong, 52)
4: Ben Marshall (Tom Denton, 52)
5: Mike McCarthy
6: Dominic Ryan
7: Shane Jennings (Kevin McLaughlin, 70)
8: Sean O'Brien CAPTAIN

REPLACEMENT NOT USED: Mick McGrath.

molloyjh

CatFromHue wrote: »

For the Pro12 this is easily our strongest team we've put out from any of the away games we lost.

For example this is the team we sent to Glasgow in Round 1

15: Zane Kirchner
14: Fergus McFadden
13: Brendan Macken
12: Noel Reid (Ian Madigan, 1)
11: Darragh Fanning
10: Jimmy Gopperth
9: Isaac Boss (Luke McGrath, 65)
1: Cian Healy (Jack McGrath, 46)
2: Sean Cronin (Bryan Byrne, 68)
3: Mike Ross (Tadhg Furlong, 52)
4: Ben Marshall (Tom Denton, 52)
5: Mike McCarthy
6: Dominic Ryan
7: Shane Jennings (Kevin McLaughlin, 70)
8: Sean O'Brien CAPTAIN

REPLACEMENT NOT USED: Mick McGrath.

I'd agree that comparing what this squad will do versus what we've done in general this season away from home is a bit disingenuous. However away to Scarlets only a few weeks ago we had:

15. Zane Kirchner
14. Fergus McFadden (Dave Kearney, 64)
13. Ben Te'o
12. Gordon D'Arcy
11. Luke Fitzgerald
10. Jimmy Gopperth
9. Eoin Reddan (Isaac Boss, 67)
1. Cian Healy (Michael Bent, 73)
2. Sean Cronin (Richardt Strauss, 69)
3. Martin Moore (Tadhg Furlong, 53)
4. Mike McCarthy (Tom Denton, 64)
5. Kane Douglas
6. Rhys Ruddock CAPTAIN
7. Dominic Ryan (Josh van der Flier, 67)
8. Jack Conan

That's a pretty decent side and we still lost by 10. Tomorrow we're up against a better team and while we are fielding a better one ourselves we're also coming off the back of a 5 day turnaround from a 100 minute battle against Toulon.

vienne86

That's some team for Ulster. Very hard to see us getting this big scalp given our away record this season, but after Sunday's performance, I live in hope.

CatFromHue

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd agree that comparing what this squad will do versus what we've done in general this season away from home is a bit disingenuous. However away to Scarlets only a few weeks ago we had:

15. Zane Kirchner
14. Fergus McFadden (Dave Kearney, 64)
13. Ben Te'o
12. Gordon D'Arcy
11. Luke Fitzgerald
10. Jimmy Gopperth
9. Eoin Reddan (Isaac Boss, 67)
1. Cian Healy (Michael Bent, 73)
2. Sean Cronin (Richardt Strauss, 69)
3. Martin Moore (Tadhg Furlong, 53)
4. Mike McCarthy (Tom Denton, 64)
5. Kane Douglas
6. Rhys Ruddock CAPTAIN
7. Dominic Ryan (Josh van der Flier, 67)
8. Jack Conan

That's a pretty decent side and we still lost by 10. Tomorrow we're up against a better team and while we are fielding a better one ourselves we're also coming off the back of a 5 day turnaround from a 100 minute battle against Toulon.

I think when you're talking about how many games you've only won on the road it is important to look at the squad's we'd playing the days we lost. The squad out against Lanelli is similar to the one out against Glasgow but no where near as good as the one going out for tomorrow

Healy now is better than Healy then (I think that might have been Healy's first start since his injury)
Toner is better than Douglas
SOB and Heaslip are better than Ruddock and Conan
Kearney is better than Kirchner

molloyjh

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think when you're talking about how many games you've only won on the road it is important to look at the squad's we'd playing the days we lost. The squad out against Lanelli is similar to the one out against Glasgow but no where near as good as the one going out for tomorrow

Healy now is better than Healy then (I think that might have been Healy's first start since his injury)
Toner is better than Douglas
SOB and Heaslip are better than Ruddock and Conan
Kearney is better than Kirchner

Agreed. However as I said we are also playing a better side than Scarlets and doing it on the back of a 5 day turnaround from a massive Euro SF. Is the improvement in squad enough to compensate for those factors enough?

CatFromHue

molloyjh wrote: »

Agreed. However as I said we are also playing a better side than Scarlets and doing it on the back of a 5 day turnaround from a massive Euro SF. Is the improvement in squad enough to compensate for those factors enough?

Yeah, we're going to win.

They have the edge at halfbacks but our pack is a better than theirs and our backs a match for theirs.

In J.McGrath, Cronin, Furlong, and Murphy we've some good players to come off the bench.

Larbre34

CatFromHue wrote: »

Yeah, we're going to win.

They have the edge at halfbacks but our pack is a better than theirs and our backs a match for theirs.

In J.McGrath, Cronin, Furlong, and Murphy we've some good players to come off the bench.

Optimistic. Id say we'll fade, its inevitable.

The way their backs are playing, Id favour them over ours at the moment. Hope to be wrong about that.

molloyjh

CatFromHue wrote: »

Yeah, we're going to win.

They have the edge at halfbacks but our pack is a better than theirs and our backs a match for theirs.

In J.McGrath, Cronin, Furlong, and Murphy we've some good players to come off the bench.

God Bless your confidence anyway. I'm not so sure myself. A lot will hang on our recovery from Sunday. If we're fit enough for it then we're in with a good shout, although I'd prefer to have Mads in there from a place kicking perspective. We've really struggled to score tries against good opposition this year and I'm not sure if that's just going to change this week. That means we'll need to keep the scoreboard ticking over.

On the other hand if our pack show signs of tiredness then I think we could be in a spot of bother.

awec

CatFromHue wrote: »

Yeah, we're going to win.

They have the edge at halfbacks but our pack is a better than theirs and our backs a match for theirs.

In J.McGrath, Cronin, Furlong, and Murphy we've some good players to come off the bench.

You reckon?

I think our backline is a lot better.

9 Pienaar v Boss - no contest
10 Jackson v Gopperth - Jackson
11 - Gilroy v Fitzgerald - Fitz is a better player, but Gilroy probably the form winger in the country right now
12 Cave v D'Arcy - nowadays it's Cave
13 Payne v Teo - I hate Payne at 13, but I still think he's better than Teo (right now)
14 Bowe v Kirchner - Bowe
15 Ludik v Kearney - Kearney

CatFromHue

awec wrote: »

You reckon?

I think our backline is a lot better.

9 Pienaar v Boss - no contest
10 Jackson v Gopperth - Jackson
11 - Gilroy v Fitzgerald - Fitz is a better player, but Gilroy probably the form winger in the country right now
12 Cave v D'Arcy - nowadays it's Cave
13 Payne v Teo - I hate Payne at 13, but I still think he's better than Teo (right now)
14 Bowe v Kirchner - Bowe
15 Ludik v Kearney - Kearney

I agree on the halfbacks but not on Gilroy over Fitz. Fitz played pretty well last week and has been looking good all season. Gilroy is playing well just not at the same level as Fitz.

I wouldn't see much of a difference between D'arcy and Cave so overall I think we're a match.