Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

CIARAN_BOYLE

awec wrote: »

You reckon?

I think our backline is a lot better.

9 Pienaar v Boss - no contest
10 Jackson v Gopperth - Jackson
11 - Gilroy v Fitzgerald - Fitz is a better player, but Gilroy probably the form winger in the country right now
12 Cave v D'Arcy - nowadays it's Cave
13 Payne v Teo - I hate Payne at 13, but I still think he's better than Teo (right now)
14 Bowe v Kirchner - Bowe
15 Ludik v Kearney - Kearney

Cave at 12? He is a better 13 than D'arcy no question but its a different position.

awec

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Cave at 12? He is a better 13 than D'arcy no question but its a different position.

I think Cave has been very solid at 12 and D'Arcy has barely had a stand out performance all season.

CatFromHue

awec wrote: »

I think Cave has been very solid at 12 and D'Arcy has barely had a stand out performance all season.

That's D'arcy, consistency in a world gone mad!

They're both good players but I think with the way the season has gone for D'arcy, i.e. being left out, he's going to be well up for this one.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

I think Cave has been very solid at 12 and D'Arcy has barely had a stand out performance all season.

D'Arcy had a stand out performance against Ulster this season.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

D'Arcy had a stand out performance against Ulster this season.

So stand out I can't even remember it!

We were crap earlier in the season though. We're a bit less crap now.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

So stand out I can't even remember it!

We were crap earlier in the season though. We're a bit less crap now.

It was in that game where we beat you.

Clearlier

awec wrote: »

I think Cave has been very solid at 12 and D'Arcy has barely had a stand out performance all season.

I think that you're getting your apples and your oranges mixed up there awec.

Has D'Arcy been solid?

Has Cave had any stand out performances?

You need to compare them against the same measure if you're going to compare them!

My guess is that their performance levels are comparable but I haven't honestly seen enough of them to make that judgement.

Leinster have a lot in the pack here, could be tough for Ulster if we've recovered from Toulon. Stephen Ferris would make a huge difference, made for a game like this.

Have Ferris and O'Brien ever played against each other? I presume not as the world hasn't split in two recently but can't remember for sure and certainly amn't arsed looking it up.

Ulster's backs have the measure of us and your kicking game is going to be light years ahead. 9,10,12,13,14 all strong for Ulster and whilst some are close I think the gaps in key positions are worrying.

Our front 8 did most of the playing last week and will be collectively bunched. I don't think we have the mental fortitude at this stage to close a gap so if ulster come out of the blocks and build up a head of steam I'd say that will be that.

200th cap for Heaslip, let's hope he has something to celebrate.

Leinster have a lot in the pack here, could be tough for Ulster if we've recovered from Toulon. Stephen Ferris would make a huge difference, made for a game like this.

Have Ferris and O'Brien ever played against each other? I presume not as the world hasn't split in two recently but can't remember for sure and certainly amn't arsed looking it up.

Ulster's backs have the measure of us and your kicking game is going to be light years ahead. 9,10,12,13,14 all strong for Ulster and whilst some are close I think the gaps in key positions are worrying.

Our front 8 did most of the playing last week and will be collectively bunched. I don't think we have the mental fortitude at this stage to close a gap so if ulster come out of the blocks and build up a head of steam I'd say that will be that.

200th cap for Heaslip, let's hope he has something to celebrate.

Quint2010

"Ian Madigan's got to get back on the horse"-Matt O'Connor.

So he drops him.

Strange one.

dub_skav

Quint2010 wrote: »

"Ian Madigan's got to get back on the horse"-Matt O'Connor.

So he drops him.

Strange one.

CatFromHue

I hate to say it but I can't remember the last time I say a Leinster player play so bad.

If we lose in Ulster our season is definitely over so I don't think MOC can take a chance.

JPCN1

Quint2010 wrote: »

"Ian Madigan's got to get back on the horse"-Matt O'Connor.

So he drops him.

Strange one.

He should have given him a run at 10. We know what Gopperth can do and Madigan can't be any worse. Problem is if Madigan has a stormer then people witt be looking at MOC.

I believe MOC's goose is already cooked though.

irishbucsfan

JPCN1 wrote: »

We know what Gopperth can do and Madigan can't be any worse.

Yes, he absolutely can be. Look at his performance in the first half against Ulster in the RDS.

bilston

The front rows are tight enough. Healy is better than Black and Best is better than Strauss so as a unit it comes down to Herbst v Ross.

Second rows are pretty even too but I worry a bit about Toner in there. If Rory has an off day Toner has the ability to pick him off. Overall a slight advantage to Leinster in the tight 5.

In the back row you'd pick Henderson, SOB and Heaslip as te strongest combined trio but SOB is playing 6 and in Henry we have an excellent O/S. Again overall a slight advantage to Leinster.

Half backs are where Ulster have a significant edge. That said goalkicking is 50/50 between the two sides, and if/when Madigan comes on Leinster will have the edge there too.

As for the centres I think Ulster have an advantage but similar to the tight 5 it's close enough. Back three is pretty close. You'd pick two Leinster (Kearney & Fitzgerald) and one Ulster (Bowe) in a combined XV, but such is Gilroy's form it isn't a concern to me. In fact potentially this could be a massive game for Gilroy to show his wears and tears off to Joe.

Leinster have a stronger bench but I fancy McCloskey will play a big role in the final quarter if the effects of Leinster's titanic struggle in Marseille start to show themselves.

It's all pretty tight but to be fair Ulster have everything else in their favour in terms of home advantage and the fact Leinster played 100 mins 5 days ago.

It should be close and should be a cracking game.

Unfortunately the forecast is due to turn about 6pm tomorrow evening. Hopefully the rain holds off until after the game, but it's annoying as it has been 16 or 17 and wall to wall sunshine all week in Belfast. Typical it seems it will change in time for Friday night!!!

CatFromHue

An Ulster win guarantee's them a top 4 finish, even a draw with shared match points would too.

Swiwi.

I remain amazed at Madigans teflon coating in this thread. A terrible game last weekend and still people want him starting at 10, can't understand why he's dropped etc. I'm not sure what else he could have done (as it were) for people to realise he's not (at least on current form) a particularly brilliant player. He's had numerous chances to replicate his form of a couple of seasons ago and it hasn't worked. He's even at risk for his RWC spot IMO. I kind of wish someone else local (eg Byrne) would come through so Madigan would be less of a topic of the thread. On the other I would love Darcy to take chance, there's still time for a fairytale finish to his career with a national recall, and this week is as good as any to put in a strong showing.

Quint2010

dub_skav wrote: »

I see what you did there. Horse. Bench. Nice.

Flipper22

Deleted User wrote: »

Leinster have a lot in the pack here, could be tough for Ulster if we've recovered from Toulon. Stephen Ferris would make a huge difference, made for a game like this.

Have Ferris and O'Brien ever played against each other? I presume not as the world hasn't split in two recently but can't remember for sure and certainly amn't arsed looking it up.

Ulster's backs have the measure of us and your kicking game is going to be light years ahead. 9,10,12,13,14 all strong for Ulster and whilst some are close I think the gaps in key positions are worrying.

Our front 8 did most of the playing last week and will be collectively bunched. I don't think we have the mental fortitude at this stage to close a gap so if ulster come out of the blocks and build up a head of steam I'd say that will be that.

200th cap for Heaslip, let's hope he has something to celebrate.

HC final 2012 for one.

awec

There was no final in 2012.

ulster_Beef

CatFromHue wrote: »

I agree on the halfbacks but not on Gilroy over Fitz. Fitz played pretty well last week and has been looking good all season. Gilroy is playing well just not at the same level as Fitz.

Have you been watching any Ulster games? He is also the Pro 12 leading try scorer. With Trimble out, he has really stood up this year.

molloyjh

CatFromHue wrote: »

I agree on the halfbacks but not on Gilroy over Fitz. Fitz played pretty well last week and has been looking good all season. Gilroy is playing well just not at the same level as Fitz.

I wouldn't see much of a difference between D'arcy and Cave so overall I think we're a match.

As a unit though our back line has been very much less than the sum of its parts as well this season don't forget. We have to factor that in as well as thr personnel.

Swiwi. wrote: »

I remain amazed at Madigans teflon coating in this thread. A terrible game last weekend and still people want him starting at 10, can't understand why he's dropped etc. I'm not sure what else he could have done (as it were) for people to realise he's not (at least on current form) a particularly brilliant player. He's had numerous chances to replicate his form of a couple of seasons ago and it hasn't worked. He's even at risk for his RWC spot IMO. I kind of wish someone else local (eg Byrne) would come through so Madigan would be less of a topic of the thread. On the other I would love Darcy to take chance, there's still time for a fairytale finish to his career with a national recall, and this week is as good as any to put in a strong showing.

I haven't watched the game back and from where I was it was hard to judge Madigans performance really. I didn't think at the time he was that poor, but it seems from reading here and elsewhere that he was. I've said before that I'm worried about him. I don't rate him as a 10 (and have copped flak on FB for saying that, so if you think here is bad...) and I don't see him working at 12 either. Give me a Fitz/Te'o centre partnership any day over one involving Madigan.

The guy has a lot of talent and a bag full of great skills. He just doesn't have the ability to make the best use of them within the context of the wider team. I don't know whether he just needs the right coach to sort that issue out, but it's plainly obvious he's going nowhere fast right now.

I do feel for the guy though. He was on the cusp of something a few years ago and it looked like he might be able to crack on. It's always difficult seeing a guy with so much of the natural skills required not make that step up. It's almost like he just needs something to click, and if it does he could be great but until it does he won't be.

Buer

Swiwi. wrote: »

I remain amazed at Madigans teflon coating in this thread.

It's not so much that Madigan is worshipped but that he encompasses so many arguments against MOC.

He's dropped. He's played out of position. A journeyman is being picked ahead of him. The game plan doesn't suit him.

When one guy can tick so many boxes, he will be supported even when it's clear that the guy has to be benched. He was brutal last weekend. This is a do or die game. If we lost we're gone. Why would we play a guy who is playing really poorly (and a lot of his mistakes came in the outhalf position before anyone says he should be playing 10)?

Aside from kicking, he was also pretty poor v Bath two weeks prior...

Flipper22

ulster_Beef wrote: »

Have you been watching any Ulster games? He is also the Pro 12 leading try scorer. With Trimble out, he has really stood up this year.

He's been very good but I wouldn't consider picking him ahead of Fitz. Not that I think it'll have much bearing on the game really.

If Leinster get an edge at the breakdown and setpiece we can win. But I'd expect home advantage plus tired Leinster = narrow Ulster win.

total former

Quint2010 wrote: »

"Ian Madigan's got to get back on the horse"-Matt O'Connor.

So he drops him.

Strange one.

No, he means that Madigan is throwing his hat at this rugby lark and going back to his first love, gymnastics.

Mahatma Geansai

Swiwi. wrote: »

I remain amazed at Madigans teflon coating in this thread. A terrible game last weekend and still people want him starting at 10, can't understand why he's dropped etc. I'm not sure what else he could have done (as it were) for people to realise he's not (at least on current form) a particularly brilliant player. He's had numerous chances to replicate his form of a couple of seasons ago and it hasn't worked. He's even at risk for his RWC spot IMO. I kind of wish someone else local (eg Byrne) would come through so Madigan would be less of a topic of the thread. On the other I would love Darcy to take chance, there's still time for a fairytale finish to his career with a national recall, and this week is as good as any to put in a strong showing.

If Gopperth ever put in a performance as bad as Madigan's at the weekend, there would be uproar. Madigan gets a slide because he is a home-grown, fan favourite.

.ak

Honestly Madigan has been in the side because he's probably the best place kicker in the country. Outside of that his general play has been poor. He's outrageously talented though and needs to go back to his strengths - stepping and attacking the gain line. He's been trying to distribute too much, it's forcing his game. He'll get there and I hope he becomes our Matt Giteau but until then he has no right to be playing in our starting XV.

Also, I'm not sure if anyone else has realised, but Darce has been playing really well lately. He had a top notch 60 min against dragons and Glasgow and a promising display off the bench against Toulon and bath. I think he's going to be the danger man in Ravenhill and teo will be on his shoulder every time.

sydthebeat

i remember when he came on the scene first, he future at 10 was question because of his place kicking problems.
ironic

CatFromHue

.ak wrote: »

Honestly Madigan has been in the side because he's probably the best place kicker in the country. Outside of that his general play has been poor. He's outrageously talented though and needs to go back to his strengths - stepping and attacking the gain line. He's been trying to distribute too much, it's forcing his game. He'll get there and I hope he becomes our Matt Giteau but until then he has no right to be playing in our starting XV.

Also, I'm not sure if anyone else has realised, but Darce has been playing really well lately. He had a top notch 60 min against dragons and Glasgow and a promising display off the bench against Toulon and bath. I think he's going to be the danger man in Ravenhill and teo will be on his shoulder every time.

Stepping and attacking from the outhalf position, that's scored him loads of tries, is quite different than from the position.

sydthebeat wrote: »

i remember when he came on the scene first, he future at 10 was question because of his place kicking problems.
ironic

I remember it was more his kicking from hand that was the problem (and still is to a degree), though McFadden took the goal kicks.