Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

I hope we don't ever become a team that's governed by the fans.

Balls to that, I never want to see our fans resort to that carry on in the first place. My position on the matter is well documented now, but if I ever heard guys start that on the terrace I'd be the first to tell them to shut up.

I've said before that I support the club and the players, not the coach. And from that perspective the "MOC Out" chanting is not something the players need to hear from us. It's wholly destructive and demoralising. We should be one of the big reasons they look to put in performances, and we should behave appropriately.

Sangre wrote: »

At this stage, would people prefer a HC semi or Pro 12 playoff?

Pro12 SF. Purely because that would improve our seeding for Europe next year. I don't see anything to be gained from losing a Euro SF in Marseilles. We'd also stand a better chance of silverware in the league than in Europe should we get that far.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

The Welcome Matt?




:pac:

The Door Matt I believe it's going to be called. :P

molloyjh

Tox56 wrote: »

I think we're more like 60/40, we aren't considerably better at all but I think the team we will put out is better, a lot more experienced and we're at home

But a close loss to Bath in isolation is one thing, being knocked out at home in Europe and not even making the playoffs in the league (our first time outside the top 3 in eleven years) would be appalling, and I don't think that's a case of fan expectations being unrealistic. It's not even like we've been particularly unlucky in the league, so far we've pretty much got what's coming to us

And have gotten a lot of good luck in terms of other results over the last 3 months in particular.

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

Balls to that, I never want to see our fans resort to that carry on in the first place. My position on the matter is well documented now, but if I ever heard guys start that on the terrace I'd be the first to tell them to shut up.

I've said before that I support the club and the players, not the coach. And from that perspective the "MOC Out" chanting is not something the players need to hear from us. It's wholly destructive and demoralising. We should be one of the big reasons they look to put in performances, and we should behave appropriately.

Just on that, I think that's interesting. For me, personally, I look at the coach(es) as part of the squad, like I would the players. If a player is under performing I don't stick the knife in but hope, as a supporter, he'll get better and so our team will get better. Sometimes players just don't have the capability to get better or perform better but I don't think that's the case with MOC.

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

I think we're more like 60/40, we aren't considerably better at all but I think the team we will put out is better, a lot more experienced and we're at home

But a close loss to Bath in isolation is one thing, being knocked out at home in Europe and not even making the playoffs in the league (our first time outside the top 3 in eleven years) would be appalling, and I don't think that's a case of fan expectations being unrealistic. It's not even like we've been particularly unlucky in the league, so far we've pretty much got what's coming to us

We've been massively unlucky this season with injuries, quite obviously, while playing in the league. Let's not forget that already, it's only been a couple of months! It's not appalling to miss out on the top 4 of the Pro 12 this season. It's disappointing, but Glasgow/Ulster/Ospreys/Munster are all good teams and we've had a poor season. It's completely incomprehensible to me that you would now add up the points totals for the season and suddenly become appalled. If we lose to Ulster, which is a completely understandable result, then we miss the playoffs. And it's a handful of bad performances which have already caused that. If we miss the playoffs, then it's already happened. Are you appalled already? If so, then say so now!

It's a silly, reactionist, way to look at things. Rather we should look at the squad and how they've played this season, accept that they have been below any standard that could be realistically expected, and question why that is. Unprecedented disruption in the squad is clearly a contributing factor, terrible form from half backs is one I've been talking about all season, inconsistency up front is a problem. Coaching plays a part in all of those to an extent. These aren't new things, and a loss to Ulster doesn't suddenly make them any worse. Just as a victory over Bath doesn't excuse them. Similarly a subsequent miracle victory over Toulon wouldn't excuse them either. The problems are already there for us to see, and have been all season, we don't need to find out whether or not we're going to make the playoffs or win the Champions Cup to gauge our level of hysterics.

jacothelad

Given that a team containing:

Healy, McGrath
Cronin
Ross, Moore
Toner
Heaslip,Murphy
O'Brien
Reddan
Fitz
Madge
Kearney...Has just won the 6 Nations, is it likely that Ireland would lose to Bath? If so, is international rugby not the highest level?...Toulon aside of course.


(add in Darcy, Kirchner, Dave K., McCarthy and Douglas etc)

If Schmidt was still i/c I doubt any of us would even comtemplate losing to Bath....good as that are, they shouldn't make Leinster quake in their boots.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We've been massively unlucky this season with injuries, quite obviously, while playing in the league. Let's not forget that already, it's only been a couple of months! It's not appalling to miss out on the top 4 of the Pro 12 this season. It's disappointing, but Glasgow/Ulster/Ospreys/Munster are all good teams and we've had a poor season. It's completely incomprehensible to me that you would now add up the points totals for the season and suddenly become appalled. If we lose to Ulster, which is a completely understandable result, then we miss the playoffs. And it's a handful of bad performances which have already caused that. If we miss the playoffs, then it's already happened. Are you appalled already? If so, then say so now!

It's a silly, reactionist, way to look at things.

I am appalled by what I've seen so far yes, I'm not even trying to deny that and I don't know where you're getting the idea that it would be an opinion formed overnight.

But like we were all told last season if you get the results you can let those things slide to an extent. If we come 4th, win our semi and final, beat Bath and push Toulon, they got results when it mattered and although the criticisms still exist they can be tempered. If we lose more than 1 of our remaining league games, and Bath, there are virtually no redeeming factors for the entire season, and if the performances are consistently awful and the results aren't coming that's a hell of a lot worse than the other scenario I outlined above, and personally I'd want MOC (and probably Cullen) out the door

irishbucsfan

I think Ireland would beat Bath quite comfortably. I think Ireland's play is completely directed and dependent on Murray and Sexton. Replace those guys with Reddan/Boss and Gopperth and it's a completely different proposition, especially with the coaching Ireland have available to them.

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

I am appalled by what I've seen so far yes, I'm not even trying to deny that and I don't know where you're getting the idea that it would be an opinion formed overnight.

But like we were all told last season if you get the results you can let those things slide to an extent. If we come 4th, win our semi and final, beat Bath and push Toulon, they got results when it mattered and although the criticisms still exist they can be tempered. If we lose more than 1 of our remaining league games, and Bath, there are virtually no redeeming factors for the entire season, and if the performances are consistently awful and the results aren't coming that's a hell of a lot worse than the other scenario I outlined above, and personally I'd want MOC (and probably Cullen) out the door

Yes, there is a strong argument to say that if you get the results then the aesthetics of the performance doesn't matter. But we haven't had the results, so that's irrelevant here.

This season we have been met with bigger obstacles than we have for a very long time, through injuries or lack of quality in key positions. Luckily the people in power with Leinster are looking at the entire picture, and won't be driven to create scapegoats as quickly as you seem to be, and as we've seen historically, that's exactly the type of leadership we need. If the quality of performance is the same in May 2016 despite a hopefully healthy squad and world class quality in the half backs, then you will be completely justified in being appalled.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

Just on that, I think that's interesting. For me, personally, I look at the coach(es) as part of the squad, like I would the players. If a player is under performing I don't stick the knife in but hope, as a supporter, he'll get better and so our team will get better. Sometimes players just don't have the capability to get better or perform better but I don't think that's the case with MOC.

I don't look at a coach the same way I do the players. For me the basic difference is loyalty. I'm that bit more loyal to a local guy who has come through the system or the AIL or whatever than I am an NIQ guy or a coach. It's not overly logical or rational, but then it's sport. Logic and reason aren't why I support Leinster. A more illogical and irrational loyalty to made up boundaries drives that. I support the club for that reason, i.e. they are my club. I support the local players for that reason, i.e. they are guys from my area. That's the basis for my support in Leinster Rugby.

Some NIQ players can add to that as can some coaches. And if they do they'll gain my appreciation and respect for it, but that's not the same as support. I don't support Joe. I love the guy, have massive respect for him and belief in him. But I don't support him. I support Ireland and the Irish players. Joe has a responsibility towards my team and how he delivers on that will be how I judge him. It's a very different thing IMO.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If the quality of performance is the same in May 2016 despite a hopefully healthy squad and world class quality in the half backs, then you will be completely justified in being appalled.

So the only way criticism of the coach isn't 'scapegoating' is if we get the best 10 in the world and see 0 improvement in performance?

If Sexton was starting at 10, I'd be confident we'd move from 66% to > 85% win probability tbh.

Don't think Goppareth or Madigan can drag a team through a rough patch anywhere near as well as Sexton. And we're undeniably in a rough patch. Not sure what coach could ever change that either.

A struggling out half serves as a bottleneck for a team. Same at 9.

padser

molloyjh wrote: »

I don't look at a coach the same way I do the players. For me the basic difference is loyalty. I'm that bit more loyal to a local guy who has come through the system or the AIL or whatever than I am an NIQ guy or a coach. It's not overly logical or rational, but then it's sport. Logic and reason aren't why I support Leinster. A more illogical and irrational loyalty to made up boundaries drives that. I support the club for that reason, i.e. they are my club. I support the local players for that reason, i.e. they are guys from my area. That's the basis for my support in Leinster Rugby.

Some NIQ players can add to that as can some coaches. And if they do they'll gain my appreciation and respect for it, but that's not the same as support. I don't support Joe. I love the guy, have massive respect for him and belief in him. But I don't support him. I support Ireland and the Irish players. Joe has a responsibility towards my team and how he delivers on that will be how I judge him. It's a very different thing IMO.

Yeah it's the same for me. For example, I don't "support" Dawson. He runs the team I support, and I think he has done a great job, but I don't feel the type of loyalty towards him I do towards the players.

I think the "home grown" element of it is a huge part, although sometimes NIQs also start to generate the same loyalty. However in that case, at least for me, a big part of that is that they put their bodies on the line tirelessly for my club (think Elson) and his team mates.

total former

Is it time for a dedicated MOC thread?

Maybe I'm straying into back-seat modding here but we were just plodding along, having a reasonable discussion about what sort of scrum-half we might sign, then some guy comes along proposing we all start chanting "MOC out" at the next match and suddenly we're treading over the same f**king ground again and again and again. There are other things to discuss but it's being made impossible.

At least with a dedicated thread, we could choose not to click into it.

padser

Tox56 wrote: »

So the only way criticism of the coach isn't 'scapegoating' is if we get the best 10 in the world and see 0 improvement in performance?

I doubt that would mean critism of MOC suddenly became acceptable to the majority here.

We could acquire a world XV this summer and fail to qualify for Europe next season and I'd guess we would start hearing things like "it takes time for the team to bed in" and "sure the best players were missing during the World Cup period"......

irishbucsfan

padser wrote: »

Yeah it's the same for me. For example, I don't "support" Dawson. He runs the team I support, and I think he has done a great job, but I don't feel the type of loyalty towards him I do towards the players.

I think the "home grown" element of it is a huge part, although sometimes NIQs also start to generate the same loyalty. However in that case, at least for me, a big part of that is that they put their bodies on the line tirelessly for my club (think Elson) and his team mates.

I think your opinion is fairly rational. But that's because you don't see everything that occurs at the club, like all fans you have access to the team on matchday only and so that's where you have to make your opinion.

Coaches put more into clubs than any player in my experience with the game, at all levels. And if a coach is putting in 12 hour days 6 days a week to try and bring your team to victory, then realistically that should earn loyalty in the same way that an NIQ putting his body on the line does. But of course we don't know to what extent that is true of any coach, when we don't have access to the team.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes, there is a strong argument to say that if you get the results then the aesthetics of the performance doesn't matter. But we haven't had the results, so that's irrelevant here.

This season we have been met with bigger obstacles than we have for a very long time, through injuries or lack of quality in key positions. Luckily the people in power with Leinster are looking at the entire picture, and won't be driven to create scapegoats as quickly as you seem to be, and as we've seen historically, that's exactly the type of leadership we need. If the quality of performance is the same in May 2016 despite a hopefully healthy squad and world class quality in the half backs, then you will be completely justified in being appalled.

As someone who wasn't totally convinced this time last year I think the "aesthetics" last season have fed into the results of this to an extent. People were happy to gloss over poor performances with the results based argument. But I said during the summer that while the Pro12 final was incredibly positive and there was the real potential for us to kick on from that, if we didn't we could be in real trouble this season. My logic being that we went to the "winning habit" well too much last season and weren't backing it up sufficiently with performances. We had guys who knew what it took to get the results but this isn't a tap we can turn on and off at will. Eventually it runs out. You need to have the performances to back it all up and to increase confidence so that the "winning habit" is bolstered.

If you look to the start of the season against Connacht the cracks were there for all to see before the injury crisis kicked in. Sure the various contributing factors since then (all the injuries and disruption) did have a big impact on our ability to deliver at times. But IMO the warning signs have been there for some time. When I said we'd be in trouble this season unless we backed up that Pro12 final game I specifically referred to losing games that we otherwise would have won in previous seasons, or missing out on bonus points that we would have managed in previous seasons. Connacht is a prime example of that. We would have found a way to win that before. We had enough leaders and enough of our first string side available. Munster in the Aviva is another one that we shouldn't be surprised to have lost given the squad available, but we should have been able to salvage a LBP from. At home against a Munster side who gave up 4 yellow cards. Drawing with Treviso and losing to Dragons are yet more examples of games where in previous seasons we would have managed even with the injuries and disruptions.

It's my opinion that these issues first took root last season and are becoming more obvious this season. Allowances must be made for all the mitigating factors sure, but they should be seen as factors (as you mentioned earlier) and not excuses. What I'm seeing this season hasn't surprised me based on my concerns from last season.

Of course that doesn't mean that things can't turn around next season with improvements in certain areas, but it would be a turnaround in form that we have yet to see in nearly 2 seasons IMO.

Synode

Our performances this season have been far worse than last year, when we had the same squad (bar O'Brien I think). What do people put that down to? For me it's the coaching. Last season we were still riding on Joe's influence. This season it's all MOC and we're a shell of the team we should be.

total former

Synode wrote: »

Our performances this season have been far worse than last year, when we had the same squad (bar O'Brien I think). What do people put that down to? For me it's the coaching. Last season we were still riding on Joe's influence. This season it's all MOC and we're a shell of the team we should be.

Say what now?

molloyjh

Synode wrote: »

Our performances this season have been far worse than last year, when we had the same squad (bar O'Brien I think). What do people put that down to? For me it's the coaching. Last season we were still riding on Joe's influence. This season it's all MOC and we're a shell of the team we should be.

There is no one single reason. The fact that so many guys were training with Ireland and not with Leinster in the last 2 months without question impacted our performances. The fact that we had a major injury crisis in the first half of the season impacted our performances, just like the did in Joes last year in charge. We've also lost 2 massive leaders on the pitch in Leo and Drico. When trying to judge the coaching ticket we have to factor all of those things into account.

Myself and TF discussed it before, but it's all a matter of degree. How much of an impact do you think each of those things had and how much of a mitigating factor are they for the coaching performance. Ultimately I think that's where many of us differ. We just weigh it up differently.

thomond2006

Is Sean McCarthy even playing AIL now? He's at the Leinster matches with the rest of the squad. He must have turned out pretty pants given Leinster had to bring in Hagan and Van Dyk as cover instead.

irishbucsfan

Synode wrote: »

Our performances this season have been far worse than last year, when we had the same squad (bar O'Brien I think). What do people put that down to? For me it's the coaching. Last season we were still riding on Joe's influence. This season it's all MOC and we're a shell of the team we should be.

Bar O'Brien and Healy up front. Two world class players in their position, very surprising you could possibly forget that.

Last season we also had a guy at outside center as well who was pretty important.

This season our midfield fell apart due to having very little consistency. Macken didn't develop as desired, Fitzgerald out injured, Te'o broke his arm immediately after arriving. We ended up with Madigan and D'Arcy at 12 and 13 and they didn't offer much as a partnership, there is no incision in that pairing (nothing like we saw from Fitzgerald when he returned after christmas).

The main problem has often been our performances at 9 and 10 imo, but they were completely exacerbated by the fact that our pack weren't dominant and there was very little cohesion outside them. The season before we had those world class players available up front to make a difference and we had a very competent midfield partnership to pick up the slack.

It's way too easy to just ignore those facts and blame the coaching.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

As someone who wasn't totally convinced this time last year I think the "aesthetics" last season have fed into the results of this to an extent. People were happy to gloss over poor performances with the results based argument. But I said during the summer that while the Pro12 final was incredibly positive and there was the real potential for us to kick on from that, if we didn't we could be in real trouble this season. My logic being that we went to the "winning habit" well too much last season and weren't backing it up sufficiently with performances. We had guys who knew what it took to get the results but this isn't a tap we can turn on and off at will. Eventually it runs out. You need to have the performances to back it all up and to increase confidence so that the "winning habit" is bolstered.

I think there's a major difference though here in what I perceived to be the argument last season and what you perceived it to be. The argument last season was that it would take time for the systems to change, and that in the meantime people would except winning ugly. Obviously that process was massively disrupted this season, there's no argument about that. I don't think it was a case that anyone was looking at the performances last season and arguing that they were acceptable over the long term, as you are suggesting.

molloyjh wrote: »

If you look to the start of the season against Connacht the cracks were there for all to see before the injury crisis kicked in. Sure the various contributing factors since then (all the injuries and disruption) did have a big impact on our ability to deliver at times. But IMO the warning signs have been there for some time. When I said we'd be in trouble this season unless we backed up that Pro12 final game I specifically referred to losing games that we otherwise would have won in previous seasons, or missing out on bonus points that we would have managed in previous seasons. Connacht is a prime example of that. We would have found a way to win that before. We had enough leaders and enough of our first string side available. Munster in the Aviva is another one that we shouldn't be surprised to have lost given the squad available, but we should have been able to salvage a LBP from. At home against a Munster side who gave up 4 yellow cards. Drawing with Treviso and losing to Dragons are yet more examples of games where in previous seasons we would have managed even with the injuries and disruptions.

It's my opinion that these issues first took root last season and are becoming more obvious this season. Allowances must be made for all the mitigating factors sure, but they should be seen as factors (as you mentioned earlier) and not excuses. What I'm seeing this season hasn't surprised me based on my concerns from last season.

Of course that doesn't mean that things can't turn around next season with improvements in certain areas, but it would be a turnaround in form that we have yet to see in nearly 2 seasons IMO.

I think pointing to the Connacht game is a complete waste of time really. How many times have Leinster lost games badly early in the season?

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/645.php (2012-13 under Joe)
http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/539.php (2011-12 under Joe)
http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/589.php (2010-11 under Joe)
http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/616.php (2009-10 under Cheika)

It happens every season and we always look horrendous, I think anyone who claims they can predict the coming seaon based on a defeat like that is mistaken.

the baby bull elephant

thomond2006 wrote: »

Is Sean McCarthy even playing AIL now? He's at the Leinster matches with the rest of the squad. He must have turned out pretty pants given Leinster had to bring in Hagan and Van Dyk as cover instead.

He's been converted to hooker and is playing for Marys.

Bridge93

One of the most frustrating things this year has been a number of times we've hauled ourselves up into 3rd or 4th overtaking the Ospreys or Ulster (in particular after the home game against ulster) and looked like, although not sorted we would be ok only to slip up stupidly and be overtaken again. It's happened a few times and is quite annoying. Top teams can often have bad form and start slow but when they catch what's above them they tend to stick there. We haven't.

Although not on the same level as Leinster some of the other top teams have had big injury trouble too (ulster and ospreys come to my mind) with weaker squads.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think there's a major difference though here in what I perceived to be the argument last season and what you perceived it to be. The argument last season was that it would take time for the systems to change, and that in the meantime people would except winning ugly. Obviously that process was massively disrupted this season, there's no argument about that. I don't think it was a case that anyone was looking at the performances last season and arguing that they were acceptable over the long term, as you are suggesting.

I never said that did I? There wasn't a whole lot of in depth discussion last season one way or another anyway.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think pointing to the Connacht game is a complete waste of time really. How many times have Leinster lost games badly early in the season?

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/645.php (2012-13 under Joe)
http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/539.php (2011-12 under Joe)
http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/589.php (2010-11 under Joe)
http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/616.php (2009-10 under Cheika)

It happens every season and we always look horrendous, I think anyone who claims they can predict the coming seaon based on a defeat like that is mistaken.

First of all I was using the Connacht game as an example of how I thought results would pan out if we didn't build on that final in May. I wasn't comparing it to other seasons directly. I was identifying it as a game that I believed in previous seasons we'd have found a way to win but didn't this season. I stand by that.

Secondly look at the squads from the last 2 seasons you linked there and compare them to the squad we sent to Galway. They simply aren't comparable. So the games aren't either. We went out against Connacht with a strong side and actually did well in the first half. We didn't capitalise on the scoreboard through small, but fixable problems. We were in control and should have gone on to win the game. We then completely fell apart in the second half. That was not the pattern of start of season games in recent years either.

Synode

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Bar O'Brien and Healy up front. Two world class players in their position, very surprising you could possibly forget that.

Last season we also had a guy at outside center as well who was pretty important.

I did mention O'Brien and remembered Healy but for some reason didn't write him. Drico though, shame on me

I still say our performances last year without the Irish players were better than this year. Even though some were scrappy, we were getting results and easily scoring tries. I can't understand what has changed this year (when you exclude the Irish contingent).

Do people agree that we are getting worse at the moment, rather than better. Fingers crossed Sexton makes a huge difference next year, which I think he will

total former

One difference from last season to this; leadership.

Last season, we had O'Driscoll and Cullen. Neither man had his greatest season but both fantastic guys to have on the pitch when you're trying to dog out a result. We just don't have that at the moment. Jennings would previously have been a leader on the pitch but he's got his own problems, so really it's all down to Heaslip.

Add in the fact that we had previously lost Sexton and Nacewa, serious leaders also, it's a big gap to fill.

Thanos

Could the difference be our forwards coach......?

Forwards win matches, back by how much.

(waits for the slating to begin)

colster

Synode wrote: »

I did mention O'Brien and remembered Healy but for some reason didn't write him. Drico though, shame on me

I still say our performances last year without the Irish players were better than this year. Even though some were scrappy, we were getting results and easily scoring tries. I can't understand what has changed this year (when you exclude the Irish contingent).

Do people agree that we are getting worse at the moment, rather than better. Fingers crossed Sexton makes a huge difference next year, which I think he will

I think the loss of Gibbes as forwards coach has had a big effect on the quality of our forward play especially rucking. Losing BOD and Darcy's decline has also had an effect here.