Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

.ak

CatFromHue wrote: »

Stepping and attacking from the outhalf position, that's scored him loads of tries, is quite different than from the position.

True and I'd be the first person to say that but it worked for him and it works for other out halves too.

Buer

I'm not sure goal kicking was ever a problem for him as such just that when he wasn't taking the kicks (when McFadden and Nacewa were), it was a stick used to beat him and that he couldn't be chosen for representative honours because he wasn't a goalkicker.

Once he was handed kicking duties, he was pretty solid from the outset.

its_phil

I think the case against his goalkicking was from his schoolboy days TBH.

Flipper22

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

If Gopperth ever put in a performance as bad as Madigan's at the weekend, there would be uproar. Madigan gets a slide because he is a home-grown, fan favourite.

Hardly a fan favourite at this stage. He looked great a couple of years ago but other than a couple of cheerleaders in the media I don't think he gets a slide really. Most people are very disappointed at how he's been going and have said that.

CIARAN_BOYLE

its_phil wrote: »

I think the case against his goalkicking was from his schoolboy days TBH.

I remember the old comments. If anyone can dig up the post where this was said I will owe you a drink.

Madigan will never make international rugby because he missed a kick when he was 16.

Buer

Flipper22 wrote: »

Hardly a fan favourite at this stage. He looked great a couple of years ago but other than a couple of cheerleaders in the media I don't think he gets a slide really. Most people are very disappointed at how he's been going and have said that.

Probably not but he has always had (and maintains) a hardcore group of supporters who see him as completely wronged over the last couple of years and his issues being the fault of others.

its_phil

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I remember the old comments. If anyone can dig up the post where this was said I will owe you a drink.

Madigan will never make international rugby because he missed a kick when he was 16.

TBH I was probably one of them back in the day. He's an international class kicker today and I just doubted he would be able to become a mentally competent kicker. Very much learned my lesson and delighted to be wrong.

It was two kicks as well.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

Probably not but he has always had (and maintains) a hardcore group of supporters who see him as completely wronged over the last couple of years and his issues being the fault of others.

This. When I dared claim on FB that he wasn't great at 10 and showed last year he couldn't make the jersey his own over Gopperth I was being asked if I was MOC and was told I was talking was utter rubbish. It's as though it's pure fact that he's the best 10 in Leinster and should be starting there whenever available. And the reason he hasn't looked great there in the past (for those who actually acknowledge that he hasn't) it's because he's been mistreated. I'd like to have seen him at 10 more this season but it's too late at this stage. That ship has sailed.

CatFromHue

When you hear O'Brien or Hogan giving out about people on the internet they're usually talking about people on Facebook/Twitter.

Flipper22

Buer wrote: »

Probably not but he has always had (and maintains) a hardcore group of supporters who see him as completely wronged over the last couple of years and his issues being the fault of others.

Yeah but people have stupid perspectives on all sorts of things! They're the ones who spout sh!te on facebook. Best ignored.

Swiwi.

molloyjh wrote: »

I do feel for the guy though. He was on the cusp of something a few years ago and it looked like he might be able to crack on. It's always difficult seeing a guy with so much of the natural skills required not make that step up. It's almost like he just needs something to click, and if it does he could be great but until it does he won't be.

I think his career is at a crossroads molloy. He's not going to supplant Sexton at 10, and he is no guarantee to hold onto the 12 shirt. It would only need one of the up and coming lads to get a chance and take it, and Madigan could find himself playing for Leinster A more often than not.

It would take courage, but I reckon he should move to another leagure for 12 to 18 months, probably the Aviva Premiership. He needs confidence, and if he can nail down a starting spot on his own merit in an overseas league, and not have the constant burden of being the amazingly gifted local lad shafted by the foreign 10 and the foreign coach for all reasons except his own form, he could come back to Ireland a better player. He has some genuine assets to his game, not least his excellent goalkicking, but I feel a change of scene would help him, and I don't think a move to Connacht is that place. The risk of going overseas is out of sight out of mind of Schmidt, but I think it's a risk worth taking.

molloyjh

Swiwi. wrote: »

I think his career is at a crossroads molloy. He's not going to supplant Sexton at 10, and he is no guarantee to hold onto the 12 shirt. It would only need one of the up and coming lads to get a chance and take it, and Madigan could find himself playing for Leinster A more often than not.

It would take courage, but I reckon he should move to another leagure for 12 to 18 months, probably the Aviva Premiership. He needs confidence, and if he can nail down a starting spot on his own merit in an overseas league, and not have the constant burden of being the amazingly gifted local lad shafted by the foreign 10 and the foreign coach for all reasons except his own form, he could come back to Ireland a better player. He has some genuine assets to his game, not least his excellent goalkicking, but I feel a change of scene would help him, and I don't think a move to Connacht is that place. The risk of going overseas is out of sight out of mind of Schmidt, but I think it's a risk worth taking.

The problem is he is making the Ireland squad now and if he leaves Ireland he won't. That's a big carrot in terms of staying. If he gets dropped from the Irish squad then maybe, but it won't happen as it stands. And you can hardly blame him.

This isn't a criticism of MOC but I really don't think he's ever going to get the best out of Mads or help Mads turn that corner. I suspect very few coaches could.

Swiwi.

molloyjh wrote: »

The problem is he is making the Ireland squad now and if he leaves Ireland he won't. That's a big carrot in terms of staying. If he gets dropped from the Irish squad then maybe, but it won't happen as it stands. And you can hardly blame him.

This isn't a criticism of MOC but I really don't think he's ever going to get the best out of Mads or help Mads turn that corner. I suspect very few coaches could.

Yeah, I agree. He would want to find some form quick though, or Schmidt might even have 2nd thoughts about handing him the 22 shirt. In saying that, he seems to play better for Ireland than Leinster, admittedly with little cameos when the game is already won, but still.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

This isn't a criticism of MOC but I really don't think he's ever going to get the best out of Mads or help Mads turn that corner. I suspect very few coaches could.

MOC is not the guy to do it, definitely not. MOC struggled to get anything out of Flood and he's superior. Madigan needs to coached directly if he has any chance, Schmidt is like that and he struggled under him as well, but he needs to be in that environment if he ever wants to make it as a 10. That doesn't exist in Ireland unfortunately and is unlikely to exist in the near future, the answer probably lies in England or France.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

MOC is not the guy to do it, definitely not. MOC struggled to get anything out of Flood and he's superior. Madigan needs to coached directly if he has any chance, Schmidt is like that and he struggled under him as well, but he needs to be in that environment if he ever wants to make it as a 10. That doesn't exist in Ireland unfortunately and is unlikely to exist in the near future, the answer probably lies in England or France.

It is a tough one for him. He won't get any further in the Ireland squad if he doesn't develop those elements of his game, and I agree he probably won't get what he needs here in that regard. But in his shoes would you be willing to walk now when you're getting a spot in most Irish 23s?

Unfortunately I'm not sure he'll make that jump until it's too late. He'll need 2-3 years away to get to where he needs to be. He's 26 as it stands so if he's going to do it he really needs to do it now. Even if he waits until next year he'll be 29-30 before he comes back.

Neil3030

Darce and Teo will be fun.

bilston

Swiwi. wrote: »

Yeah, I agree. He would want to find some form quick though, or Schmidt might even have 2nd thoughts about handing him the 22 shirt. In saying that, he seems to play better for Ireland than Leinster, admittedly with little cameos when the game is already won, but still.

It's interesting that Jackson has finished the last couple of games for Ulster at 12. It's not something that is spoken about much but Jackson is able to play 12 as well, albeit he doesn't have the same experience there that Madigan does obviously. If Jackson can suddenly provide that option of covering 12 for Ireland then Madigan comes under a lot of pressure for the 22 shirt.

irishbucsfan

bilston wrote: »

It's interesting that Jackson has finished the last couple of games for Ulster at 12. It's not something that is spoken about much but Jackson is able to play 12 as well, albeit he doesn't have the same experience there that Madigan does obviously. If Jackson can suddenly provide that option of covering 12 for Ireland then Madigan comes under a lot of pressure for the 22 shirt.

I think there's definitely a lot of pressure there already. Certainly the England game in the Aviva must make the management team question how confident they are that Madigan is a better option than Jackson.

gamma001

guessing since healy is starting the shoulder scan didn't show up anything major

stephen_n

gamma001 wrote: »

guessing since healy is starting the shoulder scan didn't show up anything major

Was Healy getting one too?

total former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think there's definitely a lot of pressure there already. Certainly the England game in the Aviva must make the management team question how confident they are that Madigan is a better option than Jackson.

What happened in that game that would make them question Madigan?

Swan Curry

stephen_n wrote: »

Was Healy getting one too?

He took a pretty nasty elbow from Botha into his shoulder on Sunday.

Neil3030

Healy's actually been injured since 2009, they just can't find an MRI scanner wide enough to fit him in to confirm it.

gamma001

stephen_n wrote: »

Was Healy getting one too?

yeah according to the times, http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro12/shoulder-surgery-likely-to-end-marty-moore-s-season-with-leinster-1.2184125

Neil3030 wrote: »

Healy's actually been injured since 2009, they just can't find an MRI scanner wide enough to fit him in to confirm it.

wouldn't surprise me in the slightest

shuffol

.ak wrote: »

Honestly Madigan has been in the side because he's probably the best place kicker in the country. Outside of that his general play has been poor. He's outrageously talented though and needs to go back to his strengths - stepping and attacking the gain line. He's been trying to distribute too much, it's forcing his game. He'll get there and I hope he becomes our Matt Giteau but until then he has no right to be playing in our starting XV.

Also, I'm not sure if anyone else has realised, but Darce has been playing really well lately. He had a top notch 60 min against dragons and Glasgow and a promising display off the bench against Toulon and bath. I think he's going to be the danger man in Ravenhill and teo will be on his shoulder every time.

Maybe I'm blind to it or we've different standards but I just can't see what makes Madigan outrageously talented. That's a praise I'd reserve for somebody like Quade Cooper.

wicklowwonder

http://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/international-rugby/schmidt-hits-back-at-leinster-in-irfu-war-of-words-31167131.html

Interesting from Joe. He usually never says much on the provinces. Either him or Matt is making up stuff on the Dragons game....

irishbucsfan

wicklowwonder wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/international-rugby/schmidt-hits-back-at-leinster-in-irfu-war-of-words-31167131.html

Interesting from Joe. He usually never says much on the provinces. Either him or Matt is making up stuff on the Dragons game....

Except it wasn't Matt making the claims originally, was it? It was Guy Easterby, who was also Leinster's team manager when Schmidt was head coach and knows EXACTLY how things went then.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/easterby-calls-on-irfu-to-review-player-management-rules-31146857.html

The Independent is just clickbait nonsense looking to create controversy.

wicklowwonder

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Except it wasn't Matt making the claims originally, was it? It was Guy Easterby, who was also Leinster's team manager when Schmidt was head coach and knows EXACTLY how things went then.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/easterby-calls-on-irfu-to-review-player-management-rules-31146857.html

The Independent is just clickbait nonsense looking to create controversy.

Sorry I thought is was Matt. True the Indo is complete trash.

irishbucsfan

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Sorry I thought is was Matt. True the Indo is complete trash.

O'Connor said it as well briefly in a press conference after Easterby's interview, but he said very little. It was Easterby's interview that kicked everything off in the media. But it's more profitable to spin it as Schmidt disagreeing with MOC.

Buer

shuffol wrote: »

Maybe I'm blind to it or we've different standards but I just can't see what makes Madigan outrageously talented. That's a praise I'd reserve for somebody like Quade Cooper.

I tend to agree. He's talented but not to the level that is alluded to at times. He has a bullet like pass that can be erratic at times. He has a great step off one side and a decent turn of pace.

That step gained him so much attention and praise in his early seasons. There isn't a huge amount else that stands out as being significantly impressive about his game and now teams have shut that step down. The chip from his own in goal area a couple of years ago got pulses racing but that tends to stand out (and was also a horribly risky move in that area).

He's a talented player who always has had some significant issues in his game that people overlooked because he was such a threatening runner.