Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

thomond2006

ssaye2 wrote: »

Cooney might be back in two years looks better each week when he plays
Our options now are average at best if we want to challenge consistently. Age takes its toll. Something needs to be done

I think you need an option right now. I said it before, if Castres get relegated throw big money at Rory Kockott.

ssaye2

thomond2006 wrote: »

I think you need an option right now. I said it before, if Castres get relegated throw big money at Rory Kockott.

100% agree it's a vital position

stephen_n

.ak wrote: »

But then your assuming either would want to go west...

total former wrote: »

Yeah, exactly, they wouldn't.

Again, it's all total speculation but I can't imagine Leinster would have been given much of a hearing if they had asked to sign a 9. The budget was probably shot with Sexton and Nacewa anyway, added to Te'o and Douglas.

Well if they weren't being offered a contract by Leinster to make room for another SH, then what they want would be fairly less important than what they'd get, neither would be attracting a huge amount of interest outside Ireland at this point in there career. As you say it's all speculative, I don't think if Leinster really wanted a new scrum half the IRFU would block it but then it comes down to who is available too and would they be better.

stephen_n

thomond2006 wrote: »

I think you need an option right now. I said it before, if Castres get relegated throw big money at Rory Kockott.

Couldn't see Kockott leaving France now after getting into the French team.

Yamanoto

How's James Hart getting on in Grenoble?

Wonder would he be an option.

ssaye2

Yamanoto wrote: »

How's James Hart getting on in Grenoble?

Wonder would he be an option.

Asked and didn't happen don't know details

ssaye2

ssaye2 wrote: »

Cooney might be back in two years looks better each week

Yeah he really seems to have progressed since leaving Leinster. We struggle to develop our own 9s For whatever reason.

SaveOurLyric

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's time to break out the rainy day cash and sign a scrum-half.

Options at 9 are worrying, but its a question of priorities. Better to break out whatever cash is necessary to pay MOC off and get someone else. Doesnt necessarily have to be a high profile or expensive name. But to give someone else a run at it is the best choice.
Much better can be made of this existing squad. Letting JayGop go is a shame. He is a much better player than he has been given a chance to be joining this sinking ship. The loss of squad players through injury or national service is a red herring - Leinster has always had that, and all teams do to some degree. Certainly doesnt account for mid table mediocrity.

Remember the old adage of forwards deciding who wins and backs deciding by how much ? Simplistic, but more than a grain of truth in it nonetheless.
We have the bulk of the pack that has won two 6N and was a winning team when Joe had them at Leinster. What is the different ingrediant ? We almost have two full international level front rows, a starting lock, and perm 3 from 4 serous international backrow performers and winnners under Joe. With a back up of other lesser internationals, experienced old stagers, and some promising up and comers. More than ample resource to navigate the Pro 12 to the playoffs and beyond.

There is simply no excuse for this fiasco. One man has taken us down to this hell. Time for these illusions to evaporate and see the problem for what it is. And get in a new man.

CatFromHue

Yamanoto wrote: »

How's James Hart getting on in Grenoble?

Wonder would he be an option.

Just 4 starts in the Top14 so far this season for him.

thomond2006

Hart is under contract until 2017 and is a JIFF player. Grenoble aren't going to let him go.

CatFromHue

Ospreys got the tbp win in Cardiff so that's us definietly out

BobCobb

I remember some people here mentioning the possibility of converting Madigan to a scrumhalf (it was quite a while ago now, it might have been on the summer tour to the USA).

I can picture him running across the field a la Genia, ready to pass on the ball to a waiting back, or break through a gap. He has a good enough pass I'd say and would be a good sniper and kicker/chipper. Obviously with Sexton returning next year you won't 'need' him on the pitch as much as this year for his goal kicking, so maybe this year would have been a good time to try it out, even for a half here and there.

sydthebeat

He's missing the most valuable aspect of a SH, management / decision making.

Would be the kind of guy that would tap and go off a penalty in your own 22 with 5 mins on the clock and up 6 points.

Clegg

sydthebeat wrote: »

He's missing the most valuable aspect of a SH, management / decision making.

Would be the kind of guy that would tap and go off a penalty in your own 22 with 5 mins on the clock and up 6 points.

Our very own Niko Matawalu then? I could go for that.

awec

There seems to be a bit of desperation trying to get Madigan into your team. He'd be an awful 9. I'm going to go on record and rule out 11, 13, 14 and 15 as well. And 1-8.

Maybe it's time to accept that he's an average 10, a pretty poor 12 and that he isn't someone that absolutely needs to be in your side.

Even as a bench option it's his versatility rather than his game changing ability that has him there. He's like what John O'Shea used to be to Manchester United - not a top player but can do a job in various positions.

19543261

He's going to be a great 10 one day...one day.....one of these days....any day now, Madigan....Madigan, you there?

"Hey I'm at 12 now."

One of these days, you're going to be a great 12.

AbusesToilets

I think it's a case a needing to be in the right system for Madigan. AK made reference to the structures that Joe placed on him when he was coaching, and how he flourished.

matthew8

I don't think it's certain Madigan would be a terrible 9. He seems to make his decisions early in the play at out half but also makes it obvious what he's going to do by the time he actually passes or takes a step. Those traits aren't so bad in a scrum half. He'd also have to run it less so I imagine when he does decide to have a go he'd be more effective. I think his passing style would be far more suited to 9 anyway.

LorMal

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah he really seems to have progressed since leaving Leinster. We struggle to develop our own 9s For whatever reason.

Maybe because we don't give them games.

LorMal

awec wrote: »

There seems to be a bit of desperation trying to get Madigan into your team. He'd be an awful 9. I'm going to go on record and rule out 11, 13, 14 and 15 as well. And 1-8.

Maybe it's time to accept that he's an average 10, a pretty poor 12 and that he isn't someone that absolutely needs to be in your side.

Even as a bench option it's his versatility rather than his game changing ability that has him there. He's like what John O'Shea used to be to Manchester United - not a top player but can do a job in various positions.

He needs time at 10. We thought he would get it when Sexton left. But MOC went with Gopperth instead - and stubbornly stuck with that despite very mixed results. The time for Madigan to step up was then - but MOC never really gave him a chance. I don't think Madigan has been the same player since.
Now, if he can be risked at 10 for all the matches that Sexton doesn't play next year - if that is a strategy that is understood by all - then I think Madigan will emerge as an excellent 10. But he needs to be able to enjoy playing in the position without being shunted around.
Ulster put their faith in Jackson despite many ropey performances and it has paid off. It's a confidence position more than any other on the team. A 10 needs to feel supported and trusted by the coach. He needs space to take some risks, learn by trial and error.
Even Sexton had some very iffy games in the beginning.

ssaye2

Madigan in the last few sexton weeks was immense sigh

stephen_n

There seems to be a certain amount of Amnessia around the fact Madigan got his chance to over take Goperth in the ten jersey last season and didn't perform as well as JG. If Goperth is so average what does it say about Madigan. Goperth has played way too much this season though, continuity is good but so is giving players rest.

irishbucsfan

stephen_n wrote: »

There seems to be a certain amount of Amnessia around the fact Madigan got his chance to over take Goperth in the ten jersey last season and didn't perform as well as JG. If Goperth is so average what does it say about Madigan. Goperth has played way too much this season though, continuity is good but so is giving players rest.

Anyone who wants to know why Madigan isn't starting at 10 for Leinster just needs to watch the first half of the Ulster game from a couple of months ago.

awec

I just think the nature of how he plays leads people to think he's better than he is.

He could be crap for 79 minutes with terrible passing and direction but make one 20 metre line break and people think he's this great running 10. His goal kicking as well, that's something that's binary and so easy to point to. Looking at him perform the main roles of a 10 is not so obvious to see.

stephen_n

Ah but there's the Northampton game!!!

He is a very skillful player but lacks that couple of seconds in his thinking that tens require so makes too many bad decisions.

Interested Observer

awec wrote: »

I just think the nature of how he plays leads people to think he's better than he is.

He could be crap for 79 minutes with terrible passing and direction but make one 20 metre line break and people think he's this great running 10. His goal kicking as well, that's something that's binary and so easy to point to. Looking at him perform the main roles of a 10 is not so obvious to see.

He had a very good season at 10 about two years ago, I don't think that's a controversial thing to say. He hasn't shown that since and his form is quite poor at the moment.

Tox56

awec wrote: »

There seems to be a bit of desperation trying to get Madigan into your team. He'd be an awful 9. I'm going to go on record and rule out 11, 13, 14 and 15 as well. And 1-8.

Maybe it's time to accept that he's an average 10, a pretty poor 12 and that he isn't someone that absolutely needs to be in your side.

Even as a bench option it's his versatility rather than his game changing ability that has him there. He's like what John O'Shea used to be to Manchester United - not a top player but can do a job in various positions.

This is too harsh on him, he regularly makes a positive impact when he comes off the bench, and he has had his share of literally game winning moments off the bench, as you'll probably remember from this time last year

Hagz

awec wrote: »

There seems to be a bit of desperation trying to get Madigan into your team. He'd be an awful 9. I'm going to go on record and rule out 11, 13, 14 and 15 as well. And 1-8.

Maybe it's time to accept that he's an average 10, a pretty poor 12 and that he isn't someone that absolutely needs to be in your side.

But if Madigan isn't a regular fixture in the Leinster side then you can't really pick him for the Ireland bench? So then what do you do? I suppose Ian Keatley could play there but that wouldn't fill me with a lot of confidence. It's better for Ireland if he remains in the Leinster side, Ireland need him for that bench fly-half spot.

Clegg

There was a time when Gopperth was struggling just as badly as Madigan yet he retained the full confidence of O'Connor. I don't really mind that but there was a lack of consistency in regards to selection. Anyway that's long since past now. Gopperth is going, he wasn't very good, and Sexton is coming back. Where that leaves Madigan for next season, I have no idea.

aimee1

Clegg wrote: »

Gopperth is going, he wasn't very good, and Sexton is coming back. Where that leaves Madigan for next season, I have no idea.

with the number 22 on his back ........