Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, we're planning on Cooney and Marmion becoming best mates (along with Henshaw) and then bringing the whole bunch of them over en masse, fixing all of our problems in one fell swoop.

09. Marmion
10. Sexton
11. Fitzgerald
12. Henshaw
13. T'eo

JPCN1

I can't see Sexton and MOC getting on very well, if the latter stays.

We need a second row and a scrum half as a priority and can't see the logic in Nacewa, though he was certainly one of our best imports who gave his all.

Darcy will probably go, so we need a 12. Could T'eo play there with Fitzgerald at 13?

.ak

I don't see why they wouldn't get on... actually, besides the obvious presumptions, I'm not sure how any of us would really ever know?

He's played under a wide range of coaches now all with different skill sets and approaches, and he's been good to excellent for all of them.

total former

Think it's based on this urban myth that, rather than training the team, O'Connor just sits around having the craic, maybe brings a few cans to training, that sort of thing, and this wouldn't sit well with Sexton.

Interested Observer

total former wrote: »

Think it's based on this urban myth that, rather than training the team, O'Connor just sits around having the craic, maybe brings a few cans to training, that sort of thing, and this wouldn't sit well with Sexton.

I know you're being facetious but I've never seen that suggested before or anything like it. I'm sure he works very hard. He's just not a particularly good head coach.

irishbucsfan

Interested Observer wrote: »

I know you're being facetious but I've never seen that suggested before or anything like it. I'm sure he works very hard. He's just not a particularly good head coach.

Regardless of whether or not the last line is true, there are people who put down Leinster's inaccuracies to the fact MOC doesn't take training sessions very seriously and someone even complained that he enjoys a drink.

Interested Observer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Regardless of whether or not the last line is true, there are people who put down Leinster's inaccuracies to the fact MOC doesn't take training sessions very seriously and someone even complained that he enjoys a drink.

Again I've never seen anyone say that. Here or anywhere else.

Buer

Interested Observer wrote: »

Again I've never seen anyone say that. Here or anywhere else.

It was posted on here in the last week or two saying he's "fond of a drink", in the context of giving him grief about his position.

Some of the flak the bloke has taken is completely out of order and shown the true colours of some.

total former

Interested Observer wrote: »

I know you're being facetious but I've never seen that suggested before or anything like it. I'm sure he works very hard. He's just not a particularly good head coach.

No, it has been suggested many, many times on this forum that training is a bit of a lark, not taken too seriously etc. (OK, the "few cans" bit was poetic licence)

It's utter bullsh*t, and I'm glad you acknowledge that, but many other posters have said it.

Interested Observer

Well I must have missed that post. I think calling it an urban myth is a bit of a stretch.

JPCN1

Buer wrote: »

It was posted on here in the last week or two saying he's "fond of a drink", in the context of giving him grief about his position.

Some of the flak the bloke has taken is completely out of order and shown the true colours of some.

I couldn't care if he rivalled Brendan Behan in the drinking stakes and had his charges playing with discernible purpose. He doesn't and that would be my complaint. Especially the backline.

Buer

JPCN1 wrote: »

I couldn't care if he rivalled Brendan Behan in the drinking stakes and had his charges playing with discernible purpose. He doesn't and that would be my complaint. Especially the backline.

Not really the point that was being made. People are happy to cast aspersions on him as a person to the point of slander because he's coach of a sports team they like who aren't doing well. It's utterly pathetic.

Tox56

Buer wrote: »

It was posted on here in the last week or two saying he's "fond of a drink", in the context of giving him grief about his position.

Some of the flak the bloke has taken is completely out of order and shown the true colours of some.

I hadn't seen this post either and while I'm not doubting it happened I dont think there has been a particular problem with the coach being attacked personally

Buer

Tox56 wrote: »

I hadn't seen this post either and while I'm not doubting it happened I dont think there has been a particular problem with the coach being attacked personally

No, that's true. It has been nipped in the bud generally on here as per the forum rules. The few times it has happened, the mods have stepped in and rightly edited it and/or issued an infraction.

You get the impression though that a number of the most prevalent opponents to him are biting their tongue though given the frequency and tone of their grievances.

.ak

Tox56 wrote: »

I hadn't seen this post either and while I'm not doubting it happened I dont think there has been a particular problem with the coach being attacked personally

There hasn't, at least not here. The post in question was reprimanded.

However, the idea that MOC is quite lax in his training sessions has been discussed many times here. 'Urban myth' may be a tad hyperbolic, but it's not far off the mark.

Interested Observer

I'm not sure why we're even talking about this. Is it going to be brought up regularly or what? The reason it came up was because someone mentioned that they couldn't see himself and Sexton getting on well together.

Best thing for Leinster is if we never have to find out.

Neil3030

Always wondered what SOB listens to on his headphones walking into a match:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1cvLaSz3m8

Podge_irl

MOC has stated on numerous occasions that his plan is to empower the players. It does actually appear to be the antithesis to what Schmidt did in terms of planning. I think his strategy would work better with someone like sexton at 10. Anyone's plan would work better with sexton at 10. But halfbacks have consistently been leinsters biggest problem.

Perhaps MOC should have realized his half backs weren't up to it and changed approach. I fully expect him to be here next year. If he stumbles with Europe's preeminent fly half than its time to go. But gopperth and Madigan simply aren't good enough to execute what he is trying to do.

I wouldn't be sad to see him go at all. But we'll see what next year brings. What he's trying is incredibly dependent on his half backs and he just doesn't have them at the moment. McGrath, if he can sort his passing, would actually be perfect for it.

stephen_n

JPCN1 wrote: »

I can't see Sexton and MOC getting on very well, if the latter stays.

We need a second row and a scrum half as a priority and can't see the logic in Nacewa, though he was certainly one of our best imports who gave his all.

Darcy will probably go, so we need a 12. Could T'eo play there with Fitzgerald at 13?

The fact Sexton is coming back at all is probably the thing that makes me believe most that the players back MOC, I doubt very much he'd be coming back if he didn't. He would certainly have talked to some other players before making the decision. I can't see what the players see but it must be something cause Sexton wants to win and wouldnt settle for any less.

JPCN1

Podge_irl wrote: »

MOC has stated on numerous occasions that his plan is to empower the players. It does actually appear to be the antithesis to what Schmidt did in terms of planning. I think his strategy would work better with someone like sexton at 10. Anyone's plan would work better with sexton at 10. But halfbacks have consistently been leinsters biggest problem.

Perhaps MOC should have realized his half backs weren't up to it and changed approach. I fully expect him to be here next year. If he stumbles with Europe's preeminent fly half than its time to go. But gopperth and Madigan simply aren't good enough to execute what he is trying to do.

I wouldn't be sad to see him go at all. But we'll see what next year brings. What he's trying is incredibly dependent on his half backs and he just doesn't have them at the moment. McGrath, if he can sort his passing, would actually be perfect for it.

I'm a bit lost here. What is he trying to do?

I'm not being personal, I just see our backline playing without a cohesive gameplan. What do you think he's trying that the half backs can't cope with?

Interested Observer

stephen_n wrote: »

The fact Sexton is coming back at all is probably the thing that makes me believe most that the players back MOC, I doubt very much he'd be coming back if he didn't. He would certainly have talked to some other players before making the decision. I can't see what the players see but it must be something cause Sexton wants to win and wouldnt settle for any less.

There's a host of reasons Sexton is coming back. A huge wage packet is one, being back around family with his young child is another, not having to commute to play for Ireland I'm sure comes into it too. I'm sure they have had conversations but I doubt he featured much in the contract negotiations.

Mahatma Geansai

Podge_irl wrote: »

MOC has stated on numerous occasions that his plan is to empower the players. It does actually appear to be the antithesis to what Schmidt did in terms of planning. I think his strategy would work better with someone like sexton at 10. Anyone's plan would work better with sexton at 10. But halfbacks have consistently been leinsters biggest problem.

Perhaps MOC should have realized his half backs weren't up to it and changed approach. I fully expect him to be here next year. If he stumbles with Europe's preeminent fly half than its time to go. But gopperth and Madigan simply aren't good enough to execute what he is trying to do.

I wouldn't be sad to see him go at all. But we'll see what next year brings. What he's trying is incredibly dependent on his half backs and he just doesn't have them at the moment. McGrath, if he can sort his passing, would actually be perfect for it.

I think that a big part of Leinster's issues stem from a lack of leadership in the squad. MOC is part of the problem, but he needs strong players who can play heads-up rugby and adjust to the game in front of them. The Leinster squad appears to have been over-reliant on Schmidt planning every aspect of the game. You get great results when you paint by numbers, but are unable to produce anything with a brush and blank canvas.

Leinster have been decent at home this season, but they fall apart every time they play away from home. I'd view that as a symptom of a dearth of leadership within the squad.

stephen_n

Interested Observer wrote: »

There's a host of reasons Sexton is coming back. A huge wage packet is one, being back around family with his young child is another, not having to commute to play for Ireland I'm sure comes into it too. I'm sure they have had conversations but I doubt he featured much in the contract negotiations.

Do you think we are paying more than Toulon would have offered? Seriously? Family is a big factor but he was by all
Accounts happy in Paris and commuting to play for Ireland wouldn't even come into it, it's a 50 minute flight, they are away from home here regardless.

Podge_irl

JPCN1 wrote: »

I'm a bit lost here. What is he trying to do?

I'm not being personal, I just see our backline playing without a cohesive gameplan. What do you think he's trying that the half backs can't cope with?

He's trying to get the backs very much playing what's in front of them. There is a lot less emphasis on set plays on more on phase play and taking chances as they arise.

It's not working but that's because the halfbacks, frankly, suck.

There is also the problem than we have, by a margin to my mind, the best pack in the Pro12 and we are very much not taking advantage of it. They're focusing on laying up ball for an unproductive back line instead of being more direct. A good deal of that is on Cullen.

Podge_irl

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I think that a big part of Leinster's issues stem from a lack of leadership in the squad. MOC is part of the problem, but he needs strong players who can play heads-up rugby and adjust to the game in front of them. The Leinster squad appears to have been over-reliant on Schmidt planning every aspect of the game. You get great results when you paint by numbers, but are unable to produce anything with a brush and blank canvas.

Leinster have been decent at home this season, but they fall apart every time they play away from home. I'd view that as a symptom of a dearth of leadership within the squad.

I agree. The approach MOC is trying requires a lot of on field leadership and it's seriously lacking.

i wouldn't call Leinster overly reliant on Schimdt. But it appears to be a very large change in approach exactly when it doesn't suit as all the experience in the back line has gone out the window.

Interested Observer

stephen_n wrote: »

Do you think we are paying more than Toulon would have offered? Seriously? Family is a big factor but he was by all
Accounts happy in Paris and commuting to play for Ireland wouldn't even come into it, it's a 50 minute flight, they are away from home here regardless.

Yeah you're right obviously it's all MOC.

And Toulon didn't offer him anything so who the hell cares what they would have offered?

Edit - have a look at this article, a few quotes from the man himself.

It's a choice I made for my family, my international career

I haven't spoken to any other French club other than Racing.

stephen_n

Interested Observer wrote: »

Yeah you're right obviously it's all MOC.

And Toulon didn't offer him anything so who the hell cares what they would have offered?

Did I say it was all MOC? Must have missed that in my post, certainly didn't mean to put it there [checks post] Nope not there. maybe you should read what I actually said.


We have no idea who offered what money but what we do know is the French clubs can offer considerably more than the IRFU can, so if money as you say was one of the motivators, he'd be plying his trade in France next season.

Edit
Racing offered him a new contract do you think it was less than the IRFU's?

.ak

I agree with Podge. I think there's a huge amount of structure in what are backs are set out to do, but it completely fails at the halfbacks. It's no coincidence our best back performances at games have been when Gopperth was on form.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Its the attitude, moc has spoken of a player led style of rugby with players deciding how to play on the field.

Many people interpet this as meaning, I don't analyse cause players will decide how to play, I dont run moves cause players will decide how to play etc

Interested Observer

stephen_n wrote: »

Edit
Racing offered him a new contract do you think it was less than the IRFU's?

There's third party involvement in Sexton's contract so very possibly.

I honestly have no idea what you're getting at here. The IRFU and whatever third party are going to be paying him an enormous sum of money. Since he did actually leave over pay issues then the amount he's been offered to play in Ireland is obviously sufficient for him to turn down the French money.

Are you trying to say money had nothing to do with him coming back? Because I can't see what other point you're making here tbh.

We've established from the man himself that family was a factor. We've established his Ireland career was a factor. So yeah I stick with my original point that the reasons for him coming back go way beyond the Leinster coach of the day to the point where he's a minor factor.