Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

stephen_n

Interested Observer wrote: »

There's third party involvement in Sexton's contract so very possibly.

I honestly have no idea what you're getting at here. The IRFU and whatever third party are going to be paying him an enormous sum of money. Since he did actually leave over pay issues then the amount he's been offered to play in Ireland is obviously sufficient for him to turn down the French money.

Are you trying to say money had nothing to do with him coming back? Because I can't see what other point you're making here tbh.

We've established from the man himself that family was a factor. We've established his Ireland career was a factor. So yeah I stick with my original point that the reasons for him coming back go way beyond the Leinster coach of the day to the point where he's a minor factor.

The player himself said money wasn't a motivating factor in him leaving outside being paid what he's worth it relation to other Irish players contracts. If money was a major factor he'd have been able to get more by staying in France, that's a simple economic fact of the game. It's pure speculation that there is a benefactor topping up his wages. The family issue I would say was a big motivator but at the same time he spoke of being happy in Paris even after the baby arrived. His International career was unaffected by playing in France so I'm not sure what he was referring to there.

What we do know about Sexton though is his will to win and if you think he thought that couldnt happen at leinster then I'd have to disagree, he's coming back knowing a lot more than you or I do about what's going on, that's for sure, to me that's an endorsement, do I think he's rushing back to work with MOC no and I never said that.

AbusesToilets

.ak wrote: »

I agree with Podge. I think there's a huge amount of structure in what are backs are set out to do, but it completely fails at the halfbacks. It's no coincidence our best back performances at games have been when Gopperth was on form.

I agree that issues with half backs have had a large bearing on our poor results. However the degradation in handling and defensive structures is where I feel MOC has the most to answer for. How many dropped passes or missed tackles have been evident of late? You can say it's up to the players to execute, but this has been a consistent element this season and should have been addressed.

duckysauce

stephen_n wrote: »

The player himself said money wasn't a motivating factor in him leaving outside being paid what he's worth it relation to other Irish players contracts. If money was a major factor he'd have been able to get more by staying in France, that's a simple economic fact of the game. It's pure speculation that there is a benefactor topping up his wages. The family issue I would say was a big motivator but at the same time he spoke of being happy in Paris even after the baby arrived. His International career was unaffected by playing in France so I'm not sure what he was referring to there.

What we do know about Sexton though is his will to win and if you think he thought that couldnt happen at leinster then I'd have to disagree, he's coming back knowing a lot more than you or I do about what's going on, that's for sure, to me that's an endorsement, do I think he's rushing back to work with MOC no and I never said that.

amount of games over there is a massive factor too, and the game hits are alot bigger than Pro12 , no doubt someone will say he played less over there :rolleyes: . Player management here is KING :cool:

molloyjh

Podge_irl wrote: »

Perhaps MOC should have realized his half backs weren't up to it and changed approach.

If he is in fact looking to get us playing a way that we simply can't then surely this is a fundamental flaw in him as a coach. Isn't implementing the right approach part of the mandate? And implementing the wrong one, which would be the case if what you are saying is true, is a failing at the most basic level of coaching, i.e. Identifying your talent and developing your plan around that.

As for the training stuff that was all based on comments from Drico and others in camp about how the sessions aren't as strict as they were under Joe and about MOC taking the piss out of players at the video reviews when highlighting mistakes. Maybe some have taken that to the nth degree, but there must be some element of truth in it. I've floated before the idea that he's too soft a personality for the squad. That for whatever reason Leinster need a hard ass to keep them at the top of their game. Cheiks and Schmidt were both tough on players and got the best from them. It is possible that MOCs management style doesn't suit the "environment" from that perspective.

All that said there are a number of clear issues with our back play. Things that appear consistently regardless of personnel. Going wide fast, crabbing across field, loopy skip passes and not fixing defenders have been readily visible so often that you simply have to ask that if this was not what the coaches want then why is it still happening. Sure there are player decisions involved in all of that too but the coaches have a huge amount to answer for there. Either they want this style of wide play or they aren't able to get a handle on it. Either way it's simply not working.

Next year we need to see the coaches get the best out of the squad minus the internationals, something they failed miserably at this season. They'll need to look at some of our Academy backs. Something they've failed to do this season or last. They'll need to have a game plan in place that those guys will be able to implement effectively. Something which we haven't seen at all this season. I really hope they can turn it around, but it will require a complete overhaul in terms of how this side has been coached and my faith in that happening isn't exactly high.

awec

I like the theory of "empowering players" (though I dislike the bullsh** corp speak) but I don't see how it can work without a strong half back pairing who can direct the team around the field.

irishbucsfan

Interested Observer wrote: »

Are you trying to say money had nothing to do with him coming back? Because I can't see what other point you're making here tbh.

It's very clear the point he was trying to make. Sexton is a very intelligent person, he's also extremely ambitious and on top of that he has some very close friends who are in Leinster's squad.

His point was simply that if MOC was a "very bad coach" as some people have decided, he could easily have extended his contract in France for another year and returned to a new coach. But he didn't, which simply contributes to the idea the players have cultivated that MOC is highly respected by the guys under his remit.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

If he is in fact looking to get us playing a way that we simply can't then surely this is a fundamental flaw in him as a coach. Isn't implementing the right approach part of the mandate? And implementing the wrong one, which would be the case if what you are saying is true, is a failing at the most basic level of coaching, i.e. Identifying your talent and developing your plan around that.

I've asked this like 20 or 30 times, but what is the right approach for this squad?

I agree that an adaptive style requires strong half backs, but so does a prescribed style, Ireland under Schmidt are dependent on performances from Murray/Sexton. So if the guy has a fundamental flaw as a coach that is only now being revealed, then what style would a coach who is not flawed implement?

I started asking the same question early this season, when our squad was constantly depleted by injury and our half backs were incapable of performing. I can't see any other approach that would have worked, so I'm really interested to know what it is I'm missing, from the people who really do somehow think he's a bad coach.

Larbre34

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's very clear the point he was trying to make. Sexton is a very intelligent person, he's also extremely ambitious and on top of that he has some very close friends who are in Leinster's squad.

His point was simply that if MOC was a "very bad coach" as some people have decided, he could easily have extended his contract in France for another year and returned to a new coach. But he didn't, which simply contributes to the idea the players have cultivated that MOC is highly respected by the guys under his remit.

At the time of year Sexton signed his contract, Leinster hadnt become as poor as they have now. I would doubt the incumbent coach featured high in his decision making.

Interested Observer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's very clear the point he was trying to make. Sexton is a very intelligent person, he's also extremely ambitious and on top of that he has some very close friends who are in Leinster's squad.

His point was simply that if MOC was a "very bad coach" as some people have decided, he could easily have extended his contract in France for another year and returned to a new coach. But he didn't, which simply contributes to the idea the players have cultivated that MOC is highly respected by the guys under his remit.

Bolded - I was specifically referring to the points on money there.

I've already given quotes from Sexton as to some of the reasons he's come back, no point going over it again. I will say again, I doubt MOC featured very highly.

irishbucsfan

Larbre34 wrote: »

At the time of year Sexton signed his contract, Leinster hadnt become as poor as they have now. I would doubt the incumbent coach featured high in his decision making.

Interested Observer wrote: »

Bolded - I was specifically referring to the points on money there.

I've already given quotes from Sexton as to some of the reasons he's come back, no point going over it again. I will say again, I doubt MOC featured very highly.

I don't see how any players wouldn't consider the coach extremely highly. I don't know anyone who wouldn't consider their boss in any job highly when moving to be honest. I feel this is just people looking as hard as possible for an excuse to avoid accepting the fact the players just don't agree with the fans on MOC (rightly or wrongly), but there you go.

Interested Observer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't see how any players wouldn't consider the coach extremely highly. I don't know anyone who wouldn't consider their boss in any job highly when moving to be honest. I feel this is just people looking as hard as possible for an excuse to avoid accepting the fact the players just don't agree with the fans on MOC (rightly or wrongly), but there you go.

I haven't made up an excuse for anything. I've never seen Sexton mention anything about MOC in the press. Maybe some of the players do really rate MOC but Leinster are still not making the playoffs. He's not good enough.

Buer

I think Francis is pretty on the money in his latest article (unclean, unclean!) when he says that MOC is almost certainly to see out his contract but will need a pretty spectacular turnaround to garner a new deal.

He also lists potential replacements but, as per usual, they're a list of people who spring to mind simply as big names in the game in this part of the world. Pretty lazy as I don't think a single one of them is in any way likely to be in the Leinster hotseat: Townsend, Baxter, Tandy, McCall, O'Shea, Ford, Jackman, O'Sullivan....all the usual names and I couldn't see a single one in the Leinster job. The one or two that would take it wouldn't be offered it (Jackman and EOS being the stand outs there).

total former

It's an absolute certainty that Sexton knew all about MOC before he decided to return. So either he decided that this is a guy he could work with, or he decided to take a pay cut and come work for a total moron.

Only one of these is logical.

Interested Observer

total former wrote: »

It's an absolute certainty that Sexton knew all about MOC before he decided to return. So either he decided that this is a guy he could work with, or he decided to take a pay cut and come work for a total moron.

Only one of these is logical.

Or, as I've quoted from Sexton directly, he decided to come home for the good of his family and international career to the team he grew up with. I suspect MOC will be long gone before Sexton's contract expires too.

vienne86

awec wrote: »

I like the theory of "empowering players" (though I dislike the bullsh** corp speak) but I don't see how it can work without a strong half back pairing who can direct the team around the field.

Well I would say it certainly doesn't suit Madigan. He played much better under the Schmidt regime.

irishbucsfan

vienne86 wrote: »

Well I would say it certainly doesn't suit Madigan. He played much better under the Schmidt regime.

He had days where he played just as badly under Schmidt, particularly when Sexton was absent.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I've asked this like 20 or 30 times, but what is the right approach for this squad?

I agree that an adaptive style requires strong half backs, but so does a prescribed style, Ireland under Schmidt are dependent on performances from Murray/Sexton. So if the guy has a fundamental flaw as a coach that is only now being revealed, then what style would a coach who is not flawed implement?

I started asking the same question early this season, when our squad was constantly depleted by injury and our half backs were incapable of performing. I can't see any other approach that would have worked, so I'm really interested to know what it is I'm missing, from the people who really do somehow think he's a bad coach.

Listen I'm not a professional rugby coach so there's only so much I can say about this. But it strikes me that asking our half backs to play what's in front of them when we know their decision making isn't great is asking a lot more of them than giving them fairly explicit instructions. Reducing the amount of decisions required of them in a game is surely most beneficial. I agree you need strong half backs regardless, but there's ways of mitigating or minimising the risks associated with their weaknesses, whereas our game plan at the moment seems to shine a big light on them instead.

What exact game plan can we implement? I'm not sure. Gopperth seems at his best taking the ball flat and to the line. The guy has made the most breaks of anyone in the league. So put some more focus on that and getting support runners on his shoulders, which we've been really bad at this season. And surely at that level it doesn't require world class backs to get a bit more movement in the back line. Dummy runners is something any professional side should be capable of. Straightening the line is something any professional side should be capable of. If we can get those things going properly we can provide Gopperth with options when he has ball in hand. At the moment his options passing wise tend to be next man out or inside ball. And the runner for the inside ball is only there when we're looking to give the inside ball.

Look at Te'os try on Friday for example. Darce ran a great dummy line while Te'o ran the switch. We made the defence make a decision. We haven't been doing nearly enough of that kind of thing this season. Surely a switch move like that isn't a difficult one to implement. I've done it at J5 level ffs. So why are we seeing that kind of thing so rarely from Leinster? It can't be that hard to instruct professional players to do it. What's hard is getting them to make the call on the fly, communicate it and have everyone where they need to be on the fly. But if your 13 doesn't know in advance where he's supposed to be all you're doing is putting pressure on everyone trying to constantly adapt to what the opposition is doing AND what is being called by the half backs. Which in turn puts pressure on the half backs to make the right call based on what the opposition are doing and their teammates are doing.

Obviously not having consistency in selection doesn't help. The more guys play together the more they understand each other and get a feel for where they are going to be and what they are going to do. Familiar combinations I'd imagine are key to this kind of game as well. But that's one thing any coach at Leinster is going to struggle with and needs to deal with. The player welfare and international windows are going to impact here. And the constant shuffling of the midfield, particularly the centres, hasn't helped either. But a coach needs to be able to deal with the realities of the situation. I'm not sure MOC has shown he can do that.

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He had days where he played just as badly under Schmidt, particularly when Sexton was absent.

I think the statistic that underlines the notion that he was a totally different player under Schmidt is that every game Leinster lost in the league that season (five of them) was with Madigan at 10.

awec

total former wrote: »

It's an absolute certainty that Sexton knew all about MOC before he decided to return. So either he decided that this is a guy he could work with, or he decided to take a pay cut and come work for a total moron.

Only one of these is logical.

I'd say MOC factored very little in Sexton's decision to return.

.ak

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I agree that issues with half backs have had a large bearing on our poor results. However the degradation in handling and defensive structures is where I feel MOC has the most to answer for. How many dropped passes or missed tackles have been evident of late? You can say it's up to the players to execute, but this has been a consistent element this season and should have been addressed.

Absolutely, I largely agree with this.

As I've always said MOC is responsible for a lot, I don't think it's fair to call anyone a 'MOC defender', as honestly I have yet to see anyone completely absolve him of any blame.

To go back to your point, I do feel the a lot that was going badly wrong in the first half of the season was attempted to be addressed - I don't think it worked, obviously, but I felt early on in the season a lot of pressure was put on our 10, and a lot more ball was kicked, so that was changed once it was realised our limitations at 10. So I do feel the management are very capable of changing and varying tactics and that is plain to see for anyone who wants to review game from game.

I also agree our defence has been our possibly worst attribute (more so than handling, which in fairness had gotten better and is actually Richie murphy's remit - along with tactical kicking), so MOC has to really go back to the drawing board there. Our tackling was awful since New Years, but mostly because our defensive system was really poor.

Buer

awec wrote: »

I'd say MOC factored very little in Sexton's decision to return.

I would say he was aware MOC would be there and met with him, obviously, but the bulk of reasons for his return were largely personal in terms of wanting to be back in Dublin with friends and family.

When he left Leinster, Schmidt was the coach and set to be coach the following season. I don't think who is coach is having any significant influence on his return.

padser

Podge_irl wrote: »

What he's trying is incredibly dependent on his half backs and he just doesn't have them at the moment.

Completely agree.

And this is precisely why is a poor coach.

Good coaches get the best of out their available resources, they don't attempt game plans well suited to players they don't have.

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He had days where he played just as badly under Schmidt, particularly when Sexton was absent.

Yep - am the only one who remembers Madigan as a pretty poor 10 during that period that just scored tries for fun?

He did have a good assist record but that's as close as it got.

Buer

.ak wrote: »

He did have a good assist record but that's as close as it got.

Did he? I remember having this debate on LF with people back in 2012/13 and the fact that he actually wasn't making tries for others at all. I would say his games at 10 have very few assists that season if I have a look.

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

Listen I'm not a professional rugby coach so there's only so much I can say about this. But it strikes me that asking our half backs to play what's in front of them when we know their decision making isn't great is asking a lot more of them than giving them fairly explicit instructions. Reducing the amount of decisions required of them in a game is surely most beneficial. I agree you need strong half backs regardless, but there's ways of mitigating or minimising the risks associated with their weaknesses, whereas our game plan at the moment seems to shine a big light on them instead.

What exact game plan can we implement? I'm not sure. Gopperth seems at his best taking the ball flat and to the line. The guy has made the most breaks of anyone in the league. So put some more focus on that and getting support runners on his shoulders, which we've been really bad at this season. And surely at that level it doesn't require world class backs to get a bit more movement in the back line. Dummy runners is something any professional side should be capable of. Straightening the line is something any professional side should be capable of. If we can get those things going properly we can provide Gopperth with options when he has ball in hand. At the moment his options passing wise tend to be next man out or inside ball. And the runner for the inside ball is only there when we're looking to give the inside ball.

Look at Te'os try on Friday for example. Darce ran a great dummy line while Te'o ran the switch. We made the defence make a decision. We haven't been doing nearly enough of that kind of thing this season. Surely a switch move like that isn't a difficult one to implement. I've done it at J5 level ffs. So why are we seeing that kind of thing so rarely from Leinster? It can't be that hard to instruct professional players to do it. What's hard is getting them to make the call on the fly, communicate it and have everyone where they need to be on the fly. But if your 13 doesn't know in advance where he's supposed to be all you're doing is putting pressure on everyone trying to constantly adapt to what the opposition is doing AND what is being called by the half backs. Which in turn puts pressure on the half backs to make the right call based on what the opposition are doing and their teammates are doing.

Obviously not having consistency in selection doesn't help. The more guys play together the more they understand each other and get a feel for where they are going to be and what they are going to do. Familiar combinations I'd imagine are key to this kind of game as well. But that's one thing any coach at Leinster is going to struggle with and needs to deal with. The player welfare and international windows are going to impact here. And the constant shuffling of the midfield, particularly the centres, hasn't helped either. But a coach needs to be able to deal with the realities of the situation. I'm not sure MOC has shown he can do that.

In fairness running a switch move like that at j5 is so me thing, getting elite level players to fall for it is another. We haven't had a consistent enough midfield or the players to do that prior to T'eo's arrival.

.ak

Buer wrote: »

Did he? I remember having this debate on LF with people back in 2012/13 and the fact that he actually wasn't making tries for others at all. I would say his games at 10 have very few assists that season if I have a look.

Fairly sure in the last schmidt pro12 season the pro12 named him as the top TA player in the league at the time of the 6n. I'll dig out the tweet.

But to put that in context, we had such a dominant pack it was very easy for him to get into space and get the ball away.

padser

.ak wrote: »

Yep - am the only one who remembers Madigan as a pretty poor 10 during that period that just scored tries for fun?

He did have a good assist record but that's as close as it got.

I think the difference back then was that his running ability was so exciting, and he was so young that we expected he was going to end up as (at the very least) a very competent outhalf at most things with outstanding running abilities.

It's not uncommon to see young outhalves missing part of the game (particularly game mgt) and develop it as they mature. Unfortunately Madigan never really developed the other attributes.

Ironically, back then most people were predominantly concerned with his place kicking and whether that would develop..... ;-)

.ak

padser wrote: »

Completely agree.

And this is precisely why is a poor coach.

Good coaches get the best of out their available resources, they don't attempt game plans well suited to players they don't have.

He has to have faith in his halfbacks. In fairness I think all of Gopperth, Reddan boss and Madigan are very good players, capable of implementing these game plans, but we've never had our first choice in good form simultaneously or injury free.

Buer

.ak wrote: »

Fairly sure in the last schmidt pro12 season the pro12 named him as the top TA player in the league at the time of the 6n. I'll dig out the tweet.

But to put that in context, we had such a dominant pack it was very easy for him to get into space and get the ball away.

He had 5 assists for the Pro12 season in 23 appearances, all of them in 2012. Nothing too impressive, in fairness, but might have even been the highest for Leinster!

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

In fairness running a switch move like that at j5 is so me thing, getting elite level players to fall for it is another. We haven't had a consistent enough midfield or the players to do that prior to T'eo's arrival.

It's not all about getting the opposition to fall for it though. It's about asking them questions, which we've been bad at. We've shovelled ball and basically let defences off as they just need to drift. A simple switch caused us to open Ulster up because we asked them a question they didn't expect at a time they didn't expect it. Have that variety in the game more and they won't simply be able to drift, which in itself helps open space out wide. It's like the little dink over the top. You don't always do it to regain possession and make a break. You do it to keep the defence "honest" and prevent them just shooting up on you the whole time because there's a risk we can get in behind them if they do.

Bring a few more things like the switch to the table and defences will be required to make more decisions. The more decisions they need to make the more likely they are to make the wrong ones. As I've said before we need to be putting the pressure on the opposition defence, but we seem to be doing a far better job on putting the pressure on our own attack.