Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

stephen_n

Considering one of MOC's main stated aims when he took over, was to sort out our defensive problems, in terms of his own goals, he has failed miserably this season. We look at times like no one is quite sure oh which defensive system we are supposed to be using.

Neil3030

I don't even think we necessarily had any problems with our defence under Schmidt. You concede more if you attack a lot (look at England against France in the 6N) and the competitions we play in reward attacking play and try-scoring more than they reward frugal defence. Plus, when the chips were down, our defence was outstanding. Bit of a pointless exercise if I'm honest. And that's not to pin it specifically on MOC, I'm sure this was either requested or at least encouraged by the people hiring him.

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

I don't even think we necessarily had any problems with our defence under Schmidt. You concede more if you attack a lot (look at England against France in the 6N) and the competitions we play in reward attacking play and try-scoring more than they reward frugal defence. Plus, when the chips were down, our defence was outstanding. Bit of a pointless exercise if I'm honest. And that's not to pin it specifically on MOC, I'm sure this was either requested or at least encouraged by the people hiring him.

Well Schmidt was our defense coach, and that was his approach to defense and it worked. MOC came from a different background runs a defense differently, and has had success with that as well. He didn't say he was going to "fix" our defense of course, he brought in a completely different approach. And Joe, when leaving Leinster, underlined the defense as an area that needed to be addressed.

vienne86

molloyjh wrote: »

As someone who wasn't totally convinced this time last year I think the "aesthetics" last season have fed into the results of this to an extent. People were happy to gloss over poor performances with the results based argument.

Tht's nailed it for me, molloy.

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well Schmidt was our defense coach, and that was his approach to defense and it worked. MOC came from a different background runs a defense differently, and has had success with that as well. He didn't say he was going to "fix" our defense of course, he brought in a completely different approach. And Joe, when leaving Leinster, underlined the defense as an area that needed to be addressed.

I'd be very surprised if he were to say the same thing now.

Defense wins Internationals.

Try-scoring wins European Cups and Leagues.

Teferi

Neil3030 wrote: »

I don't even think we necessarily had any problems with our defence under Schmidt. You concede more if you attack a lot (look at England against France in the 6N) and the competitions we play in reward attacking play and try-scoring more than they reward frugal defence. Plus, when the chips were down, our defence was outstanding. Bit of a pointless exercise if I'm honest. And that's not to pin it specifically on MOC, I'm sure this was either requested or at least encouraged by the people hiring him.

I think in the first year with Joe our defence plan was essentially "We'll score more tries than you" but it tightened up quite a bit in the second season.

Buer

Neil3030 wrote: »

I'd be very surprised if he were to say the same thing now.

Defense wins Internationals.

Try-scoring wins European Cups and Leagues.

There's no difference. Defence wins games, regardless of the tournament. We won our first HEC based on a superb defence despite an attack that misfired. At one point, we went 240 minutes of HEC rugby without scoring a try that season.

Podge_irl

Buer wrote: »

There's no difference. Defence wins games, regardless of the tournament. We won our first HEC based on a superb defence despite an attack that misfired. At one point, we went 240 minutes of HEC rugby without scoring a try that season.

Technically we actually went 318 minutes without scoring a try...

stephen_n

At the moment we have a misfiring attack and defense. I have a funny feeling we are going to come up with a performance this weekend though, don't know why but just do.

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

One difference from last season to this; leadership.

Last season, we had O'Driscoll and Cullen. Neither man had his greatest season but both fantastic guys to have on the pitch when you're trying to dog out a result. We just don't have that at the moment. Jennings would previously have been a leader on the pitch but he's got his own problems, so really it's all down to Heaslip.

Add in the fact that we had previously lost Sexton and Nacewa, serious leaders also, it's a big gap to fill.

The starkest contrast in results has been during the 6 Nations when most of our leaders were missing though. Sure Leo was there, but is Leo really the difference between beating the Dragons and not, especially when you factor in his form last year?

Leadership is an issue certainly but I don't think it comes close to explaining some of the rubbish we've seen lately.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well Schmidt was our defense coach, and that was his approach to defense and it worked. MOC came from a different background runs a defense differently, and has had success with that as well. He didn't say he was going to "fix" our defense of course, he brought in a completely different approach. And Joe, when leaving Leinster, underlined the defense as an area that needed to be addressed.

There was definitely talk in camp of defensive issues at the end of Joes final year. But at the same time there was a lot of talk about improving it and there being a big focus on it when MOC came in. There was an interview with Rob and Locky from memory that talked a lot about how they were looking to improve the defence. Maybe the word "fix" is poor paraphrasing but when you talk about a poor defensive record and improving that, the word "fix" isn't a million miles off.

But like I said before, if you compare Matts first season to Joes first and second there was a negligible difference. There's little point in comparing last season to the season before because of the injuries. This season is a more relevant comparator. And while we've improved over 2 seasons ago defensively (by probably 8 or so tries I'd say) we're worse offensively (by around 12 or so tries). And we came second that year with 17 wins. For all the talk about defence winning games, we're winning a lot less now with a marginally better defence then purely because we're not scoring.

Neil3030

Buer wrote: »

There's no difference. Defence wins games, regardless of the tournament. We won our first HEC based on a superb defence despite an attack that misfired. At one point, we went 240 minutes of HEC rugby without scoring a try that season.

There is a difference. Ireland would not have won the Six Nations were tie-breakers decided using the League or ERC criteria.

Knockout stages it becomes less relevant, but I'd say that if you went back and correlated defence with league position, the relationship would be pretty weak.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

There was definitely talk in camp of defensive issues at the end of Joes final year. But at the same time there was a lot of talk about improving it and there being a big focus on it when MOC came in. There was an interview with Rob and Locky from memory that talked a lot about how they were looking to improve the defence. Maybe the word "fix" is poor paraphrasing but when you talk about a poor defensive record and improving that, the word "fix" isn't a million miles off.

But like I said before, if you compare Matts first season to Joes first and second there was a negligible difference. There's little point in comparing last season to the season before because of the injuries. This season is a more relevant comparator. And while we've improved over 2 seasons ago defensively (by probably 8 or so tries I'd say) we're worse offensively (by around 12 or so tries). And we came second that year with 17 wins. For all the talk about defence winning games, we're winning a lot less now with a marginally better defence then purely because we're not scoring.

The problem is what we're doing with the ball. Not without it. We've made clear defensive improvements, we just can't use the ball efficiently and we put ourselves in dangerous situations. Recently we've defended poorly as well, but over the long term the defense hasn't been the problem, our inept decision making and organisation when we get our hands on the ball has been the problem.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The problem is what we're doing with the ball. Not without it. We've made clear defensive improvements, we just can't use the ball efficiently and we put ourselves in dangerous situations. Recently we've defended poorly as well, but over the long term the defense hasn't been the problem, our inept decision making and organisation when we get our hands on the ball has been the problem.

Yeah there's definitely a lot of truth in that. Against Glasgow in the opening 20 we kicked to their back 3 a lot from inside our own 22. They were fielding the ball inside our own half and we struggled desperately to get beyond their 10m line. The pressure that put us under meant we'd have struggled regardless of how good or bad our defensive system is.

I haven't noticed any system issues in the defence personally, just a lot of missed tackles lately. I should have said above that it's hard to tell the level of improvement given the circumstances. Implementing a new defensive system itself requires a bedding in period. So it's entirely possible the system is better. I'd need to look back on previous season to comment for certain. My point above was really the same as yours. Our problem is ball in hand.

CatFromHue

stephen_n wrote: »

At the moment we have a misfiring attack and defense. I have a funny feeling we are going to come up with a performance this weekend though, don't know why but just do.

Because we are, that's why.

Us :cool:

SaveOurLyric

total former wrote: »

It makes me sad that we're 48 hours away from a home European Cup quarter final and all some people want to talk about, or are able to talk about, is getting rid of the coach. I just don't get this mentality.

Its seeing the bigger picture. I'm sure they too really want Leinster to win, but are still very concerned about the future prospects if decisive action is not taken.

total former

molloyjh wrote: »

The starkest contrast in results has been during the 6 Nations when most of our leaders were missing though. Sure Leo was there, but is Leo really the difference between beating the Dragons and not, especially when you factor in his form last year?

Leadership is an issue certainly but I don't think it comes close to explaining some of the rubbish we've seen lately.

I didn't say it was the explanation, only that it's a factor. Just trying to break the monotony of the "MOC is sh*t" posts and posters that have taken over this thread. Again.

total former

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Its seeing the bigger picture. I'm sure they too really want Leinster to win, but are still very concerned about the future prospects if decisive action is not taken.

Nah. "They" want us to lose because "they" think it will speed Matt's exit. "They" don't see the bigger picture at all, otherwise "they" might be prepared to accept there could be reasons other than the coach for the disappointments of this season.

Tox56

total former wrote: »

I didn't say it was the explanation, only that it's a factor. Just trying to break the monotony of the "MOC is sh*t" posts and posters that have taken over this thread. Again.

With one notable exception calling those posts "MOC is sh*t" posts is as broad and unfair as labelling the posts defending him as "MOC can do no wrong" posts. There is actually thought and reasoning going into them

Phil Mitchell

Hello. Firstly I'm not trying to sell tickets here, just looking for direction.

Is there an official route for Leinster fans to sell their unwanted tickets?

I'm not with the supporters club and bought tickets via ticketmaster

Season tickets can be made available via the Leinster ticket exchange.

Individual games, somewhere like toutless is your best option.

total former

Tox56 wrote: »

With one notable exception calling those posts "MOC is sh*t" posts is as broad and unfair as labelling the posts defending him as "MOC can do no wrong" posts. There is actually thought and reasoning going into them

Yep, some of them are very well argued. Others not so much. Others are just plain bananas.

I'm just sick of the whole thing. We're playing a relatively important game at the weekend. I'd rather discuss that. I'd rather discuss who might be here next season, I'd rather discuss the size of Nacewa's belly, just anything tbh.

Heroditas

Phil Mitchell wrote: »

Hello. Firstly I'm not trying to sell tickets here, just looking for direction.

Is there an official route for Leinster fans to sell their unwanted tickets?

I'm not with the supporters club and bought tickets via ticketmaster

There's a subforum on Leinster fans.com

Interested Observer

So Te'o is in the frame to start this one? The way Fitz has defended at 13, and the fact they've a brilliant attacking 13, would make sense to me to start Fitz there. I've taken no enjoyment from watching Leinster over the last 2 months or so so haven't really done any sort of in-depth look at anything, how has Te'o been overall? My one glance at games would say he's been getting over the gainline well enough, but how's his defence been?

Buer

Interested Observer wrote: »

So Te'o is in the frame to start this one? The way Fitz has defended at 13, and the fact they've a brilliant attacking 13, would make sense to me to start Fitz there. I've taken no enjoyment from watching Leinster over the last 2 months or so so haven't really done any sort of in-depth look at anything, how has Te'o been overall? My one glance at games would say he's been getting over the gainline well enough, but how's his defence been?

His defence hasn't been stellar (41 tackles made, 7 missed in 2015) but it hasn't been something where we've been notably exposed either. I would say the area where he stands out as not really knowing what to do is the breakdown and that's to be expected.

While I share some of the dubiousness regarding his selection, his presence would mean we get our best attacking players on the field. His work in attack has been impressive. Not only has he been getting over the gain line but he has great awareness around him for the offload and soft hands. I posted his attacking stats in his starts in 2015 on the other thread:

In his 6 starts in 2015, Ben Te'o has beaten 27 defenders and made 11 clean breaks

To put that in context, here are the combined stats of the players who played 11, 12, 14 and 15 in those games:

52 defenders beaten, 21 clean breaks.

When he's giving us 50% of what the rest of the back line is giving us in those isolated areas (and it's generally easier to beat a defender in the back 3 than it is in midfield), he makes a very strong case for inclusion.

durkadurka

Have you got knock on stats for Teo?

irishbucsfan

Buer has been responsible for 87% of the usage of scrum.com's stats page since the website was redesigned.

Synode

Look at post 201 above

dregin

Synode wrote: »

Look at post 201 above

... Why?

Synode

Someone was asking about a ticket. I'm guessing you've deleted it or I've posted in the wrong thread