Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

errlloyd

ssaye2 wrote: »

So lads Im the new coach.

First things first. I am going to do what the fans tell me.

Give me a list... :pac:

Okay, so the rules are, you're an interim coach, with nothing to lose, and you've been given a **** hard European group. Therefore your objective for the year is don't get blown away in Europe, achieve a top four finish and blood some youngsters.

Start having a serious look at young scrum halves, both inside the team, in terms of assessing who we can give gametime to, and outside the team in terms of who we can bring in.

Noel Reid should be afforded as much gametime at inside centre with teo outside as possible.

Capitalise on the world cup to get some more academy backs into the senior side. I believe Crosbie was the only one who played this season. In your first 8 games you should be looking to give an opportunity to Ringrose, Kellegher Dardis and have Isa and Zane really work to mentor those guys. You have no choice at ten, academy out halves to step up.

Our game plan should probably refocus on continuity. Like Leinster under Gibbes, try and focus on attacking breakdowns to speed up the ball and protect it better.

While it sort of ties into the scrum half thing, our box kicking is ****. So take some time to assess the situation, if we can't find better box kickers, and you can't improve the ones we have consider hiring Yachvili as a consultant.

Teo is great, but he's also risking some bans at the moment, he's bordering dodgyness with his fending and talking. He needs some good support from his coaching staff to help him adapt and possibly discipline.

Mahatma Geansai

Larbre34 wrote: »

Is it abuse? Nobody is booing him or effing and blinding at him and his parentage. People are criticising his coaching.

After Wasps in Coventry I went to see Aston Villa in the FA Cup, while Paul Lambert was still in charge. Now THAT was abuse.

Those aims you mentioned of a euro QF and playoff place must be regarded as a floor of ambition to a club the size of Leinster. Overall we are in something of a 10 year basement.

People need to realise that the current Leinster side is a shadow of its former self. Luke Fitzgerald is probably the only back who would have any chance of making any Leinster backline from the last number of years (decade maybe?). The pack is still very good, if a little weak in the second row, but you can't do much without a backline.

The performance in the Pro12 this season has been terrible, but Leinster don't have a divine right to finish ahead of Glasgow/Munster/Ulster/Ospreys. Even if the team was performing much better, you could still finish up 5th in the Pro12.

Interested Observer

Interested Observer wrote: »

Same as every other season then! And every team in the league is going to get hammered by the RWC.

Nowhere near to the same extent...

aimee1

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

What do you think the expectations in the Pro12 and ERCC are?

Pro12 playoffs

ERCC - QF minimum, with level of expectation increasing if a home QF.


Next season is going to be different. ERCC could be tough if in 3rd tier of seeds so low expectations there for me especially if Ireland do well in RWC


IF MOC is gone, would be happy to see a new coach use it as a free year to build for the following season and look to achieve Pro12 playoffs.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

I heard rumours in Toulon that suggested it was close to happening, again from a reliable enough source. Although those rumours suggested he was under pressure to go internally. They went hand in hand with talk of Dempsey acting as a caretaker coach until a full-time appointment could be made. I suppose we'll find out in the coming weeks.

I didn't hear it from anyone involved with the Leinster setup, but they were making enquiries about the availability of certain pretty good coaches. That could mean anything (this particular example could work as a defense coach for instance). I don't think it means anything other than preparing for the possibility, I don't think he's going to leave in a World Cup year unless there's a job in Japan or something like that.

It wouldn't be an attractive year really for a permanent appointment, and if the option for Leinster is an interim guy for a year or MOC they'll pick MOC. So if he's going I'd say it's coming from him.

irishbucsfan

TommyOM wrote: »

Yeah I think Leo should be moved sideways and Leinster should employ a new skills coach that could give 100% to the team.

What could Leo be moved sideways to? A defense coach perhaps?

I don't think we'd be appointing new assistants really. If we want a skills coach then I think we should bring in Costello from Munster and make him an assistant head coach, but then he's a personal favourite.

aimee1

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

People need to realise that the current Leinster side is a shadow of its former self. Luke Fitzgerald is probably the only back who would have any chance of making any Leinster backline from the last number of years (decade maybe?). The pack is still very good, if a little weak in the second row, but you can't do much without a backline.

The performance in the Pro12 this season has been terrible, but Leinster don't have a divine right to finish ahead of Glasgow/Munster/Ulster/Ospreys. Even if the team was performing much better, you could still finish up 5th in the Pro12.

Ben T'eo is going to prove a very good addition. Nacewa will do a job, I doubt he would come back unless he thought he could. There is still some decent backs in that Leinster team. Kearney x2, McFadden, Madigan, Reid, Fitz, Kirchner with Sexton to come back.

Leinster lost to the Dragons [x2] and were 14 points up in one. There was a draw away to Treviso. There was other numerous terrible performances which resulted in 8 point plus defeats. Improved performances are very much within the scope of the current squad, especially at pro12 level and all of a sudden Leinster are ~15 points better off, with Treviso and Edinburgh to come. Its not a divine right, its a reasonable expectation

Heroditas

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Even if the team was performing much better, you could still finish up 5th in the Pro12.

It wouldn't have required a huge increase in performance levels to achieve the following:

Win both home and away against Dragons.
Win away to Treviso
Win away to Connacht

There's 11 points that were thrown away due to sloppiness, not anything to do with the relative strength of the squad.
That would have left us right up there going into the last two weeks of the season.

I don't think anyone would debate that the squad is not as good as a few years ago but it is still a very strong squad and many of the performances do not reflect this.


EDIT: bloody hell, Aimee1 is reading my mind!

aimee1

Heroditas wrote: »

It wouldn't have required a huge increase in performance levels to achieve the following:

Win both home and away against Dragons.
Win away to Treviso
Win away to Connacht

There's 11 points that were thrown away due to sloppiness, not anything to do with the relative strength of the squad.
That would have left us right up there going into the last two weeks of the season.

I don't think anyone would debate that the squad is not as good as a few years ago but it is still a very strong squad and many of the performances do not reflect this.


EDIT: bloody hell, Aimee1 is reading my mind!

You were also thinking about the missed LBPs but didnt type it out :eek:

Flipper22

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

People need to realise that the current Leinster side is a shadow of its former self. Luke Fitzgerald is probably the only back who would have any chance of making any Leinster backline from the last number of years (decade maybe?). The pack is still very good, if a little weak in the second row, but you can't do much without a backline.

The performance in the Pro12 this season has been terrible, but Leinster don't have a divine right to finish ahead of Glasgow/Munster/Ulster/Ospreys. Even if the team was performing much better, you could still finish up 5th in the Pro12.

There's no way that going out in a euro QF and Pro12 semi would be seen as a season in which targets were met. We won the Pro12 only last season. Even if the team was performing a bit better we'd be in the top 4. If we'd beaten the dragons as we usually do and either munster/glasgow at home we'd be in the top 4.
Given the group we had, I think the realistic goals for this season would have been Euro semi and win the Pro12. Top 4 finish is an expectation, not a goal.

Edit- or beaten Treviso......

thomond2006

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

People need to realise that the current Leinster side is a shadow of its former self. Luke Fitzgerald is probably the only back who would have any chance of making any Leinster backline from the last number of years (decade maybe?). The pack is still very good, if a little weak in the second row, but you can't do much without a backline.

The performance in the Pro12 this season has been terrible, but Leinster don't have a divine right to finish ahead of Glasgow/Munster/Ulster/Ospreys. Even if the team was performing much better, you could still finish up 5th in the Pro12.

Mahatma Geansai, the bastion of Leinster positivity! I'm convinced if Leinster can sign a quality scrum-half then they should be able to compete in the league. The backline is fine, the halfbacks are the issue IMO.

I think if they are going to act on MOC it has to be right now. A lot of season ticket renewals depend on it.

molloyjh

Sangre wrote: »

If I was a potential candidate I'd be very wary of the job:
-fans with high expectations
-last coach pushed out (assumption of course)
-WC year
-team contributes very heavily to national team

Hardly mouth watering!

I dunno. There's a lot to work with in Leinster even without the internationals. We've a pretty good set-up here in general terms and we've a decent Academy. While there are negatives, particularly next season, there are also a number of positives as well.

Deleted User wrote: »

If it's true, then I believe that we've actually set ourselves up to be able to take a gamble.

The year that's coming up for Leinster isn't going to be very palatable to most imo. We're losing a lot of players and consistency twice during the season, and we're set to have to play some very green guys in both periods.

My expectations for next season are actually pretty low.

I'd be interested in seeing if we'd take the gamble on Girv for a year with a view to have someone else come in next season. Given that we'll be relying on a lot of the work that Girv has done over the last 2 years with the 'A' team to fill in the gaps during RWC&6N, he's in a pretty decent spot to just take the reigns for those periods imo.

If Girv doesn't 'deliver', then we're post RWC and there's potentially a few other head coaches available from elsewhere. Girv takes over the backline job no matter what.
If Girv does 'deliver', then we back him up with some assistant coaches from elsewhere.

Personally I like the sound of that.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I didn't hear it from anyone involved with the Leinster setup, but they were making enquiries about the availability of certain pretty good coaches. That could mean anything (this particular example could work as a defense coach for instance). I don't think it means anything other than preparing for the possibility, I don't think he's going to leave in a World Cup year unless there's a job in Japan or something like that.

It wouldn't be an attractive year really for a permanent appointment, and if the option for Leinster is an interim guy for a year or MOC they'll pick MOC. So if he's going I'd say it's coming from him.

Yeah that makes sense. The reason I said nothing about the rumours I was hearing was because Conor O'Shea's name was mentioned and I don't buy that bit. I also don't think that having made a SF in the Champions Cup and running Toulon as close as we did that Leinster would sack him. It seems far more likely that he doesn't see the set-up as a good fit for him and wants to move on before he does too much damage to his own career. And if that's the case then fair enough. I've said before I don't think he's a bad coach, just not the one we need. And that can work both ways.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What could Leo be moved sideways to? A defense coach perhaps?

How about the new position of Dark Arts coach?

Heroditas

aimee1 wrote: »

You were also thinking about the missed LBPs but didnt type it out :eek:

Get out of my head! :eek:

Larbre34

Interested Observer wrote: »

Same as every other season then! And every team in the league is going to get hammered by the RWC.

There are probably no bigger net contributors to their national sides than Leinster.

So that's the second major break up in the squad this year:

http://www.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/rugby-star-luke-fitzgerald-splits-with-model-cheryl-orourke-after-two-years-31174002.html

What the hell is M'OC doing to these lads.



:pac:

desertcircus

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I'd imagine that Leinster's goals at the start of every season are a Pro12 semi-final and a ERCC quarter-final. If MOC is to be judged on those grounds alone, even when you include missing out on the Pro12 semi-finals this season, then he has exceeded the expectations of his position.

Why on earth would a team that's contested every league final since the introduction of the playoffs be happy with a semifinal? Why would a team that won the last two titles be settling for a target of any less than a third? Why would a team with three Heineken Cups and a Challenge Cup in the previous six years set a quarterfinal as a target? No sporting organisation in Leinster's position would set those as goals; they're absolute minimum standards.

padser

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nowhere near to the same extent...

Sure, international withdrawals hit the teams with the best players more than other teams. To that extent it's a bit of a leveller.But on the other hand, those top teams normally have much better strength in depth than other teams and thus should be better able to cope with it.

To put it another way, Leinster are almost never in a weaker absolute position in terms of fielding a team than, for example, Connacht. Man for man the D Ryan's, M Bents and J Conans of this world are a match for (and often ahead of) whoever Connacht is fielding (and these guys tend to be available for Leinster on match days).

We can argue over theoretically whether or not this is true, but for me the proof is in the results. Historically, during periods like 6 Nations windows Leinster rack up points even at lower ranked teams. What changed this year is that we started dropping points during this period.

Sangre

Sangre wrote: »

If I was a potential candidate I'd be very wary of the job:
-fans with high expectations
-last coach pushed out (assumption of course)
-WC year
-team contributes very heavily to national team

Hardly mouth watering!

Yeah there is that. But also apart from our massive list of achievements the last few years:

1. Best academy in Europe?
2. Previous 2 coaches now national team coaches for two world top 5 teams
3. Lower expectations set by recent disaster of a coach
4. Best 10 in the world returning

So whilst there are factors that would put someone off, I think any decent coach on the up would back themselves.

Tox56

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So that's the second major break up in the squad this year:

http://www.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/rugby-star-luke-fitzgerald-splits-with-model-cheryl-orourke-after-two-years-31174002.html

What the hell is M'OC doing to these lads.



:pac:

Can't believe there are still people who complain that Fitzgerald can't score, unbelievable

Tox56

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah there is that. But also apart from our massive list of achievements the last few years:

1. Best academy in Europe?
2. Previous 2 coaches now national team coaches for two world top 5 teams
3. Lower expectations set by recent disaster of a coach
4. Best 10 in the world returning

So whilst there are factors that would put someone off, I think any decent coach on the up would back themselves.

Yeah if you are a coach with faith in your ability I think it's a perfect time to take over, you just can't fail to improve on the league performance/position of this season, and for the big games you have one of the best players in the world in one of the most important positions on the pitch available to you, in addition to a monster pack. I think it's a hugely enticing position

leakyboots

thomond2006 wrote: »

Mahatma Geansai, the bastion of Leinster positivity! I'm convinced if Leinster can sign a quality scrum-half then they should be able to compete in the league. The backline is fine, the halfbacks are the issue IMO.

I think if they are going to act on MOC it has to be right now. A lot of season ticket renewals depend on it.

Hold on, are you the same Thomond2006 who on MF claimed that:

"Truth is, Leinster just don't have the players. We told you for long enough you were deluding yourselves about the "world-class" shtick, and that decline started under Schmidt. MOC's pragmatism is probably the sensible response to limited players; but it would take the Bloooooo Magoos opening both eyes to see the limitations."

As it happens I agree with you, I don't think the quality is there, especially in the backline. Even Luke Fitz, for all the hype, is good at stepping around fellas in tight spaces but ain't a finisher or much of a creator. I'm just wondering where this optimism is coming from.

TommyOM

leakyboots wrote: »

Hold on, are you the same Thomond2006 who on MF claimed that:

"Truth is, Leinster just don't have the players. We told you for long enough you were deluding yourselves about the "world-class" shtick, and that decline started under Schmidt. MOC's pragmatism is probably the sensible response to limited players; but it would take the Bloooooo Magoos opening both eyes to see the limitations."

As it happens I agree with you, I don't think the quality is there, especially in the backline. Even Luke Fitz, for all the hype, is good at stepping around fellas in tight spaces but ain't a finisher or much of a creator. I'm just wondering where this optimism is coming from.

It seems thomond2006 has different posting styles depending on the audience :pac:

A competent coach and an international class scrum half and Leinster will be in a strong position for next season. Te'o being another season in the game will be like a fresh signing as well the way he keeps improving.

Tox56

leakyboots wrote: »

Hold on, are you the same Thomond2006 who on MF claimed that:

"Truth is, Leinster just don't have the players. We told you for long enough you were deluding yourselves about the "world-class" shtick, and that decline started under Schmidt. MOC's pragmatism is probably the sensible response to limited players; but it would take the Bloooooo Magoos opening both eyes to see the limitations."

As it happens I agree with you, I don't think the quality is there, especially in the backline. Even Luke Fitz, for all the hype, is good at stepping around fellas in tight spaces but ain't a finisher or much of a creator. I'm just wondering where this optimism is coming from.

Wat

By what standard is the quality not there? There isn't enough quality compared to Glasgow or Munster? Ulster or Ospreys? Not a chance. There might not be the quality overall compared to the likes of Toulon or Clermont, but we were the equal of Toulon for 80 minutes so at least in the pack there is, and even so I don't think fans are throwing a tantrum because we haven't won the h cup this year (or whatever it's called)

thomond2006

leakyboots wrote: »

Hold on, are you the same Thomond2006 who on MF claimed that:

"Truth is, Leinster just don't have the players. We told you for long enough you were deluding yourselves about the "world-class" shtick, and that decline started under Schmidt. MOC's pragmatism is probably the sensible response to limited players; but it would take the Bloooooo Magoos opening both eyes to see the limitations."

As it happens I agree with you, I don't think the quality is there, especially in the backline. Even Luke Fitz, for all the hype, is good at stepping around fellas in tight spaces but ain't a finisher or much of a creator. I'm just wondering where this optimism is coming from.

That must be a different thomond2006, it's not this one!

leakyboots

Tox56 wrote: »

Wat

By what standard is the quality not there? There isn't enough quality compared to Glasgow or Munster? Ulster or Ospreys? Not a chance. There might not be the quality overall compared to the likes of Toulon or Clermont, but we were the equal of Toulon for 80 minutes so at least in the pack there is, and even so I don't think fans are throwing a tantrum because we haven't won the h cup this year (or whatever it's called)

I was talking about the backline specifically, I don't think RK at fullback is at the peak of his powers by any means, he's a master at catching the ball but I think his counterattacking is poor along with his tackling. EDIT: ye are undoubtedly well served in the pack

The woes at halfback are well documented, 12 is a problem position too. I don't think DK is up to it either, Fanning also, but both are good squad players to have I guess, every squad needs them. Poor auld Ferg McF is always injured lately. Luke is the only bright spark (although Teo is shaping up nicely it has to be said), and even then I think people overstate his effectiveness sometimes.

ssaye2

Noel Reid was smashing last season I thought, scoring loads of tries linking well and competed well against AKI in the Connacht game. I hope he gets loads of time next year.

leakyboots

ssaye2 wrote: »

Noel Reid was smashing last season I thought, scoring loads of tries linking well and competed well against AKI in the Connacht game. I hope he gets loads of time next year.

Start of next season is as good a time as any to blood some young lads, this goes for all provinces. I'd hope to see the likes of Jack O'Donoghue, maybe some of the wingers like Greg O'Sea and others like Rory Scannell get some good gametime.

Tox56

leakyboots wrote: »

I was talking about the backline specifically, I don't think RK at fullback is at the peak of his powers by any means, he's a master at catching the ball but I think his counterattacking is poor along with his tackling. EDIT: ye are undoubtedly well served in the pack

The woes at halfback are well documented, 12 is a problem position too. I don't think DK is up to it either, Fanning also, but both are good squad players to have I guess, every squad needs them. Poor auld Ferg McF is always injured lately. Luke is the only bright spark (although Teo is shaping up nicely it has to be said), and even then I think people overstate his effectiveness sometimes.

You said you were struggling to see where the optimism was coming from so in that context we are also getting one of if not the best 10s in the world

Also DK is criminally underrated. By what standard is he not up to it? He's clearly never going to be top class but he had a fine six nations against the best international teams in Europe. He's more than capable at Pro12 and H Cup level

RuggieBear

leakyboots wrote: »

Hold on, are you the same Thomond2006 who on MF claimed that:

"Truth is, Leinster just don't have the players. We told you for long enough you were deluding yourselves about the "world-class" shtick, and that decline started under Schmidt. MOC's pragmatism is probably the sensible response to limited players; but it would take the Bloooooo Magoos opening both eyes to see the limitations."

As it happens I agree with you, I don't think the quality is there, especially in the backline. Even Luke Fitz, for all the hype, is good at stepping around fellas in tight spaces but ain't a finisher or much of a creator. I'm just wondering where this optimism is coming from.

What people say on other forums is of no relevance here. I'm especially not a big fan of calling out posters based on what a some anonymous forum handle has posted elsewhere even if it was possible to prove it was the same user