Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

Has there been anything to substantiate that MOC is leaving Leinster? If the players have been told realistically it will be announced within a short window from that as I'm sure Leinster will want to control the communication to the media / fans.

Interested Observer

ssaye2 wrote: »

Noel Reid was smashing last season I thought, scoring loads of tries linking well and competed well against AKI in the Connacht game. I hope he gets loads of time next year.

Another really frustrating case, quite frankly didn't matter how well he played, he was always going to get dropped. Has barely played this calendar year. He's 24 turning 25, he's clearly talented enough to be playing somewhere, you'd think he must be considering a move away in order to play a bit of rugby?

If he's been injured then I take it all back but I'm not aware of an injury.

Neil3030

Deleted User wrote: »

So that's the second major break up in the squad this year:

http://www.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/rugby-star-luke-fitzgerald-splits-with-model-cheryl-orourke-after-two-years-31174002.html

What the hell is M'OC doing to these lads.



:pac:

Lost his precision in the final third. Can't blame her.

molloyjh

Interested Observer wrote: »

Another really frustrating case, quite frankly didn't matter how well he played, he was always going to get dropped. Has barely played this calendar year. He's 24 turning 25, he's clearly talented enough to be playing somewhere, you'd think he must be considering a move away in order to play a bit of rugby?

If he's been injured then I take it all back but I'm not aware of an injury.

He picked up 2 injuries this season IIRC, but even when fit he isn't getting game time now. He's firmly behind Mads and Darce for the 12 shirt.

uRbaN

Deleted User wrote: »

Has there been anything to substantiate that MOC is leaving Leinster? If the players have been told realistically it will be announced within a short window from that as I'm sure Leinster will want to control the communication to the media / fans.

I really feel this is just not going to happen.
We must secure 5th over the next few games. Why would they jeopardise this by ditching the coach now, or telling him he is to be ditched.

Cant see it.
Unless Joe Schmidt is coming back.

uRbaN

uRbaN wrote: »

I really feel this is just not going to happen.
We must secure 5th over the next few games. Why would they jeopardise this by ditching the coach now, or telling him he is to be ditched.

Cant see it.
Unless Joe Schmidt is coming back.

Well if they feel they need a new coach for next season then they need to start recruiting now so they would have to communicate that.

Secondly as people have said it might help with season ticket sales.

Finally if they are letting the coach go then there obviously isn't much faith in his ability so there will be a stop gap for the last few weeks of the season (who knows, maybe Joe will lend a hand for a few weeks! - said in gest)

The two people I know that generally provide accurate information on the camp haven't heard much, one said previously that O'Connor was definitely under pressure regarding being here next year and the players were aware of this - but nothing about any announcement today.

AbusesToilets

Interested Observer wrote: »

Another really frustrating case, quite frankly didn't matter how well he played, he was always going to get dropped. Has barely played this calendar year. He's 24 turning 25, he's clearly talented enough to be playing somewhere, you'd think he must be considering a move away in order to play a bit of rugby?

If he's been injured then I take it all back but I'm not aware of an injury.

As others have said before, Nucifora really needs to take a more active role in utilizing the talents coming through the academies. It must be incredibly frustrating for some of the players to excel at junior levels only to be stuck riding pine for years due to internationals in their positions on the senior team.

We have a centrally controlled system here, might as well use it to our benefit. Perhaps some form of draft on players graduating from the academies, or strengthen ties with foreign clubs like London Irish etc to give players better opportunities to develop.

AbusesToilets

.ak wrote: »

Absolutely, I largely agree with this.

As I've always said MOC is responsible for a lot, I don't think it's fair to call anyone a 'MOC defender', as honestly I have yet to see anyone completely absolve him of any blame.

To go back to your point, I do feel the a lot that was going badly wrong in the first half of the season was attempted to be addressed - I don't think it worked, obviously, but I felt early on in the season a lot of pressure was put on our 10, and a lot more ball was kicked, so that was changed once it was realised our limitations at 10. So I do feel the management are very capable of changing and varying tactics and that is plain to see for anyone who wants to review game from game.

I also agree our defence has been our possibly worst attribute (more so than handling, which in fairness had gotten better and is actually Richie murphy's remit - along with tactical kicking), so MOC has to really go back to the drawing board there. Our tackling was awful since New Years, but mostly because our defensive system was really poor.

The defensive failure is the hardest aspect to understand to me. It's one the systems that can be effectively trained across the whole squad, where everyone can be on the same page regardless of ability.

On the point re the Heads Up tactics, what does it say about some of our players if they are being given this freedom and produce the ineffective results we've seen? I'm not expecting 15 2001 era BODs, but failing to do basic things like running straight, fixing defenders or running support lines is very disappointing to see.

Interested Observer

AbusesToilets wrote: »

We have a centrally controlled system here, might as well use it to our benefit. Perhaps some form of draft on players graduating from the academies, or strengthen ties with foreign clubs like London Irish etc to give players better opportunities to develop.

I have to say I think that's a bad idea. Leinster (as well as the rest of the provinces) currently put so much time and effort into the academies for some expected return, i.e. those players will come through and play for Leinster. If the province can just lose the players then it changes the whole dynamic.

Drafts are most common in US sports I think it's fair to say and you have guys leaving college, which they would be doing anyway, and joining professional teams so it's not really comparable.

thomond2006

A draft would mean the end of 'homegrown' players dominating their province's squad. I would hate to see that happen.

errlloyd

thomond2006 wrote: »

A draft would mean the end of 'homegrown' players dominating their province's squad. I would hate to see that happen.

Maybe provinces should get to promote 2 of their own a season before the draft or something?

Podge_irl

Would a draft even be legal in Europe?

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

Would a draft even be legal in Europe?

They'd probably find some loophole that ends up with Toulon getting all our players.

molloyjh

AbusesToilets wrote: »

On the point re the Heads Up tactics, what does it say about some of our players if they are being given this freedom and produce the ineffective results we've seen? I'm not expecting 15 2001 era BODs, but failing to do basic things like running straight, fixing defenders or running support lines is very disappointing to see.

It's tough to do that kind of thing as a unit though. Everyone involved in a move needs to be on the same page at the same time. And the guy calling the shots needs to be able to assess both the opposition line and his own line to see what is or isn't on and then communicate that to his team mates on the go. Unless players are really comfortable and familiar with one another this is incredibly difficult to do. If just one guy is out of place or doesn't get it the whole thing can collapse.

In many ways that could explain the really basic "fire it out wide" thing and the lack of an apparent game plan. Because guys simply aren't on the same wavelength and aren't in a position to pull that sort of thing off in a match situation. And it could be why the players think they are closer than we think they are to clicking. They could be seeing results in training that just aren't showing up on the pitch because of the increased speed and intensity. And when they can't get a move going they have little other option than the simple send it out the line.

I'm sure most of us that have played any rugby, or even just tag, have experienced situations where we don't know the call, can't hear the call or no call has been given and you just don't really know where you're going or what you're doing. You try to make a read on it, but if the guy next to you is in the same boat and makes a different read it can all go pear shaped very quickly. If you have a lot of experience with the guys on other side of you this is less likely to be an issue, but if the guys on either side are constantly changing you're going to be a lot less comfortable.

Truth be told, whilst senior squad time is good for our upcoming players to gain - I don't think a "to hell or to Connacht" approach merits all that much consideration. We still want Leinster A to be very competitive as a winning mindset is a key part of development and importantly the senior coach will have a lot of access and time to see which guys are doing the business at A level before bringing them up.

I think the greater issue this year is that because results have been hard to come by and we're only really winning games when we have all our first choice players, there has been a reluctance to weaken any team in any way.

That said, I don't think we've been as bad as some think in terms of youth development with the likes of Furlong, Conan, Marshall, Justice4Luke, Mick McGrath, Van der Flier and Colm O'Shea all getting game time this season.

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

A draft would mean the end of 'homegrown' players dominating their province's squad. I would hate to see that happen.

This. I take a lot of pride in Leinsters record over the last number of years with local players dominating. The American system is totally different and while it works really well for them I can't see it working here.

CatFromHue

Deleted User wrote: »

That said, I don't think we've been as bad as some think in terms of youth development with the likes of Furlong, Conan, Marshall, Justice4Luke, Mick McGrath, Van der Flier and Colm O'Shea all getting game time this season.

Furlong last season had only 3 starts and 4 from the bench in the Senior team, he's had 7 and 17 this season! Only 22 too

Conan had 1 start before this season but this season has 13 and 7! He'll be 23 in the Summer

McGrath in the previous 3 seasons had 1 start and 11 from the bench, this season he's had 4 and 10. He's just gone 22.

Vder Flier had no Senior involvement before this season but was in involved in 2 starts and 4 from the bench. He went 22 on the weekend.

Brian Byrne had no Senior involvement before this season but was in involved in 1 starts and 7 from the bench. He's only 21.

Brian Byrne had no Senior involvement before this season but was in involved in 1 starts and 7 from the bench. He's only 21.

Ross Moloney is only 20 and made 2 appearances from the bench this season.

We can talk about game plan all day but you'd can't argue we've had some seriously inexperienced players playing for us this season, and getting a good bit of game time too.

molloyjh

CatFromHue wrote: »

Furlong last season had only 3 starts and 4 from the bench in the Senior team, he's had 7 and 17 this season! Only 22 too

Conan had 1 start before this season but this season has 13 and 7! He'll be 23 in the Summer

McGrath in the previous 3 seasons had 1 start and 11 from the bench, this season he's had 4 and 10. He's just gone 22.

Vder Flier had no Senior involvement before this season but was in involved in 2 starts and 4 from the bench. He went 22 on the weekend.

Brian Byrne had no Senior involvement before this season but was in involved in 1 starts and 7 from the bench. He's only 21.

Brian Byrne had no Senior involvement before this season but was in involved in 1 starts and 7 from the bench. He's only 21.

Ross Moloney is only 20 and made 2 appearances from the bench this season.

We can talk about game plan all day but you'd can't argue we've had some seriously inexperienced players playing for us this season, and getting a good bit of game time too.

The problem is they are almost all forwards and most peoples issues have been with the back play. Sure the forwards have been dodgy at times, but they've also delivered at times. The backs have been dodgy pretty much all the time and haven't really delivered at all.

thomond2006

I think Treviso is an opportunity to blood some young players off the bench.

21 McCarthy 22 Byrne 23 Ringrose

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

I think Treviso is an opportunity to blood some young players off the bench.

21 McCarthy 22 Byrne 23 Ringrose

We can't afford to. Scarlets and Edinburgh are 4 and 5 points behind us respectively. To protect our seeding for next year, i.e. not make it worse, we need the full 5 points from this one. And then possibly a LBP minimum in Edinburgh. That's how bad it is.

thomond2006

molloyjh wrote: »

We can't afford to. Scarlets and Edinburgh are 4 and 5 points behind us respectively. To protect our seeding for next year, i.e. not make it worse, we need the full 5 points from this one. And then possibly a LBP minimum in Edinburgh. That's how bad it is.

Fair enough. Treviso did give Munster a good game and cannot go on holidays with Europe on line.

A home match against Treviso with everything at stake. What a time to be alive.

stephen_n

molloyjh wrote: »

The problem is they are almost all forwards and most peoples issues have been with the back play. Sure the forwards have been dodgy at times, but they've also delivered at times. The backs have been dodgy pretty much all the time and haven't really delivered at all.

What backs should have been brought through? I think Marsh should have been given more time, given what's happening next season and would like McGrath to have got more time but can't think of any others who are ready yet, maybe Crosbie.

wise7

molloyjh wrote: »

We can't afford to. Scarlets and Edinburgh are 4 and 5 points behind us respectively. To protect our seeding for next year, i.e. not make it worse, we need the full 5 points from this one. And then possibly a LBP minimum in Edinburgh. That's how bad it is.

The leinster A backline would probably do a better job. They know how to use ball in attack and score tries.

aimee1

thomond2006 wrote: »

A home match against Treviso with everything at stake. What a time to be alive.

@boringkearney unmasked

metrosity

molloyjh wrote: »

The problem is they are almost all forwards and most peoples issues have been with the back play. Sure the forwards have been dodgy at times, but they've also delivered at times. The backs have been dodgy pretty much all the time and haven't really delivered at all.

I don't think that's fair. The backs could be calling for it more and be less passive arguably but part of the problem is they're not getting much service - too much kicking in behind the gain line .. way too much and it's un-Leinter like. They won Heineken cups by playing attacking rugby.

Larbre34

metrosity wrote: »

I don't think that's fair. The backs could be calling for it more and be less passive arguably but part of the problem is they're not getting much service - too much kicking in behind the gain line .. way too much and it's un-Leinter like. They won Heineken cups by playing attacking rugby.

Why would they call it on themselves when they have evidently no faith in the system

Hagz

I don't think blooding new players in the last two games is of much benefit either. Plenty of time for it next season.

metrosity

Larbre34 wrote: »

Why would they call it on themselves when they have evidently no faith in the system

I still think O'Connor deserves another year.

Fireball07

Hagz wrote: »

I don't think blooding new players in the last two games is of much benefit either. Plenty of time for it next season.

Well, there could be a benefit in that pretty much all the frontline players are available. Seeing how 2 or 3 of the young players do in an otherwise full-strength team could be of benefit.

Or even guys like McGrath- he couldn't do any worse than Reddan at the moment.

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

Fair enough. Treviso did give Munster a good game and cannot go on holidays with Europe on line.

A home match against Treviso with everything at stake. What a time to be alive.

I know. Wait, are you being sarcastic?