Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

.ak

TommyOM wrote: »

It's been two years at this stage.

No offence but these days the only way for MOC supporters to defend him is to claim that his detractors are soccer-ish and not 'real rugby fans' because they sure as hell can't defend him based on what actually happened on the pitch this season.

It's not premature or soccer-ish to want MOC to go. That's what the two year contract with the option of a third is there for. Are Leinster's chairmans soccer-ish as well then? My guess is the only reason he is staying put is because the board want to wait to see what coaches are available after the world cup.

Who's defending him? Who are these 'MOC supporters'? Can you actually attest to anyone supporting MOC?

Most people here, including myself, are very well aware of MOC's issues and failings.

You don't have to be a 'MOC supporter' to use a bit of reason when it comes to how contracts are dealt with and how professional rugby works.

MOC is on a 3 year deal btw, not a 2 year + 1 optional.

Hagz

thomond2006 wrote: »

I see you've changed your signature...

My hatred for Toulon far outweighs my sympathy for Matthew O'Connor.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

I'm not saying it should NEVER happen. But the attitude of MOC OUT is a very soccerish imo. Again, I don't mean to say rugby is somehow better than soccer, but the dynamics of the profession are very much different.

I think that's a bit of a harsh generalisation to be honest. I want MOC out but I wouldn't consider my opinion to be a "soccer" type opinion. I gave the guy 18 months and have very logical reasons for believing what I do. Soccer fans give their coaches a couple of months, even weeks in some cases.

Now maybe you're specifically talking about the witch hunt that goes on in social media circles. But I think people are paying them far too much attention. The MOCOut twitter account doesn't even have 200 followers. When Leinster supporters number in the tens of thousands 200 people is a pretty small drop in the ocean. You've then got the same people again and again on Facebook posting the same stuff too, many of whom I'm sure are a part of that 200 on Twitter.

For me MOC is not the right man for the job. That's not to say he's a bad coach or anything like that, he's just not the right fit at Leinster. It makes little sense then to me to keep him on. I don't see him making the necessary improvements and if he can't do that then it's best for all involved if he were to go. Even from his perspective, does he want to be known as the guy who took on a Leinster side widely acknowledged as one of the best around only to leave them a mid-table Pro12 team? Sometimes it just doesn't work out, and employers should not be afraid to face up to that and deal with it if the need be.

awec

Am I alone in wishing MOC gets a new Lancaster-esque 7 year deal?

errlloyd

awec wrote: »

Am I alone in wishing MOC gets a new Lancaster-esque 7 year deal?

With Ulster?

Has there ever been any criticism of something that MOC does/doesn't do discussed?

Not what his team has done/not done. Him. Him alone.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Am I alone in wishing MOC gets a new Lancaster-esque 7 year deal?

You mean you enjoy watching that rugby live!?

Greyian

awec wrote: »

Am I alone in wishing MOC gets a new Lancaster-esque 7 year deal?

I'm sure there are a huge number of fans who agree with you...fans of teams that aren't Leinster.

dub_skav

awec wrote: »

Am I alone in wishing MOC gets a new Lancaster-esque 7 year deal?

Due to his great work with developing young players and sending them straight to the national team, negotiations with Nucifora have yielded MOC a long-term position as coach of the Leinster "hot-house".
As part of this portfolio there will be a small number of players moved within the provinces.
Marmion, Henshaw, Olding, McCloskey and Henderson will all move to Leinster where MOC can work with them more directly for the betterment of the national team.

total former

Deleted User wrote: »

Has there ever been any criticism of something that MOC does/doesn't do discussed?

Not what his team has done/not done. Him. Him alone.

Yes, he shipped a lot of flak for signing a centre from Australian rugby league who had never played union before. And, in fairness, that was a crazy decision that hasn't turned out well at all.

TommyOM

total former wrote: »

Yes, he shipped a lot of flak for signing a centre from Australian rugby league who had never played union before. And, in fairness, that was a crazy decision that hasn't turned out well at all.

So you're clinging to that one signing?

Interested Observer

.ak wrote: »

Who's defending him? Who are these 'MOC supporters'? Can you actually attest to anyone supporting MOC?

Most people here, including myself, are very well aware of MOC's issues and failings.

You don't have to be a 'MOC supporter' to use a bit of reason when it comes to how contracts are dealt with and how professional rugby works.

MOC is on a 3 year deal btw, not a 2 year + 1 optional.

With all due respect you are a MOC defender/supporter unless you've changed your mind recently. Not too long ago you were talking about how lucky Leinster were to have him, I'm sure I can find the post easily enough.

TommyOM

Interested Observer wrote: »

With all due respect you are a MOC defender/supporter unless you've changed your mind recently. Not too long ago you were talking about how lucky Leinster were to have him, I'm sure I can find the post easily enough.

Yeah. AK, irishbucsfan, Total Former would be three that spring instantly to mind.

There is an attempt to form a narrative whereby the more knowledgeable, *true* rugby fan knows MOC to be an excellent coach. That those who want MOC out simply don't understand the intricacies of rugby and are soccerish in their demands. Didn't you hear? The MOC-out people are lunatics who have been going around subjecting MOC to personal abuse and questioning his drinking habits?!? These are not people you want to be associated with if you are a *true* rugby fan.

It's gotten to the stage where the MOC supporters can't even argue on the point of the merits of MOC anymore so instead have to resort to attacking those that want MOC to leave.

@TommyOM

@TommyOM

If you could just explain a single thing that Matt O'Connor has done wrong, then maybe we could have a discussion.

Otherwise it's mostly histrionics.

Here's one. In the game v Dragons, he got the subs badly wrong. Te'o was binned, and Luke Fitzgerald, with gametime at 13 and 11 this season was on the bench. Darragh Fanning was playing wing.

There was 15 minutes left, and I feel that Fitz coming on for Fanning at that stage could well have been the difference. Fitz defending 13&14 (for 10 mins with the bin) instead of Fanning, as well as Fitzgerald's experience and attacking ability would have been a much preferable situation imo.

In your opinion, has MOC repeatedly shown bad use of the bench?

irishbucsfan

TommyOM wrote: »

Yeah. AK, irishbucsfan, Total Former would be three that spring instantly to mind.

There is an attempt to form a narrative whereby the more knowledgeable, *true* rugby fan knows MOC to be an excellent coach. That those who want MOC out simply don't understand the intricacies of rugby and are soccerish in their demands. Didn't you hear? The MOC-out people are lunatics who have been going around subjecting MOC to personal abuse and questioning his drinking habits?!? These are not people you want to be associated with if you are a *true* rugby fan.

It's gotten to the stage where the MOC supporters can't even argue on the point of the merits of MOC anymore so instead have to resort to attacking those that want MOC to leave.

I've said I wouldn't renew MOC's contract if it was up.

I just don't accept the incredibly low standard of argument, the sort you would make for example, to be a legitimate attempt to argue the case for removing him from his job. I don't mind debating molloyjh when he brings up some relevant criticims. It's just the "WHAT GAMEPLAN?!" brigade who I have absolutely no time for, and deserve to be discredited.

TommyOM

Deleted User wrote: »

@TommyOM

If you could just explain a single thing that Matt O'Connor has done wrong, then maybe we could have a discussion.

Otherwise it's mostly histrionics.

Here's one. In the game v Dragons, he got the subs badly wrong. Te'o was binned, and Luke Fitzgerald, with gametime at 13 and 11 this season was on the bench. Darragh Fanning was playing wing.

There was 15 minutes left, and I feel that Fitz coming on for Fanning at that stage could well have been the difference. Fitz defending 13&14 (for 10 mins with the bin) instead of Fanning, as well as Fitzgerald's experience and attacking ability would have been a much preferable situation imo.

In your opinion, has MOC repeatedly shown bad use of the bench?

We've been over this, there is something wrong with his style of coaching or style of man-management because 9 wins from 21 in the Pro 12 is simply not good enough from this bunch of players.

I am not a professional coach, I don't know his training regime, I don't know what he's likes with the players or his general management but something's definitely off.

Unless you're happy with Leinster finishing 5/6 in the Pro 12 and putting in the performances that they have been putting in all season?

.ak

Interested Observer wrote: »

With all due respect you are a MOC defender/supporter unless you've changed your mind recently. Not too long ago you were talking about how lucky Leinster were to have him, I'm sure I can find the post easily enough.

With all due respect you're wrong - please, prove otherwise.

If anyone actually cares to read my posts they'd know I'm very aware of MOC's failings. However, he's not the only reason we're failing at the moment. That's the point a lot of us are trying to make, yet we get tarred as 'MOC defenders'. It's becoming impossible to have any sort of reasoned debate anymore, it's becoming a boring tirade of 'US vs THEM!'.

No offence IO, but your post I've quote is a brilliant example of it. I can't be sure how anyone actually thinks I'm some sort of MOC supporter. Do I think he's treated unfairly? Absolutely. Do I think he's doing a good job? Absolutely not. If his contract was up tomorrow I wouldn't renew, and I've already said as much.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

....I don't mind debating molloyjh when he brings up some relevant criticims....

Aw shucks...

TommyOM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I've said I wouldn't renew MOC's contract if it was up.

I just don't accept the incredibly low standard of argument, the sort you would make for example, to be a legitimate attempt to argue the case for removing him from his job. I don't mind debating molloyjh when he brings up some relevant criticims. It's just the "WHAT GAMEPLAN?!" brigade who I have absolutely no time for, and deserve to be discredited.

My argument is that 9 wins from 21 games in the Pro 12 is a very poor return and the manner of performances this season have been awful. I would further argue that the fact that the same players are playing much better at a higher standard of rugby for a different team as further evidence that MOC's man-management and coaching style is not getting close to the full potential out of these players.

.ak

TommyOM wrote: »

Yeah. AK, irishbucsfan, Total Former would be three that spring instantly to mind.

There is an attempt to form a narrative whereby the more knowledgeable, *true* rugby fan knows MOC to be an excellent coach. That those who want MOC out simply don't understand the intricacies of rugby and are soccerish in their demands. Didn't you hear? The MOC-out people are lunatics who have been going around subjecting MOC to personal abuse and questioning his drinking habits?!? These are not people you want to be associated with if you are a *true* rugby fan.

It's gotten to the stage where the MOC supporters can't even argue on the point of the merits of MOC anymore so instead have to resort to attacking those that want MOC to leave.

You're making it out that you're being generalized. However, I'd love for you to make a point of this and actually show us a post where this has happened? I can only speak for myself, but any post I've debated with you have been on the merits of your post. I don't bundle you in with other posters.

emmet makes a good point - there is a constant debate around who thinks what rather than a debate around rugby. It's becoming tiresome, and at some point we will need to start moderating that.

irishbucsfan

TommyOM wrote: »

My argument is that 9 wins from 21 games in the Pro 12 is a very poor return and the manner of performances this season have been awful. I would further argue that the fact that the same players are playing much better at a higher standard of rugby for a different team as further evidence that MOC's man-management and coaching style is not getting close to the full potential out of these players.

So what you're saying is that you don't know enough about it to argue the point, but you know enough about it to be certain he's the problem.

TommyOM

.ak wrote: »

With all due respect you're wrong - please, prove otherwise.

If anyone actually cares to read my posts they'd know I'm very aware of MOC's failings. However, he's not the only reason we're failing at the moment. That's the point a lot of us are trying to make, yet we get tarred as 'MOC defenders'. It's becoming impossible to have any sort of reasoned debate anymore, it's becoming a boring tirade of 'US vs THEM!'.

No offence IO, but your post I've quote is a brilliant example of it. I can't be sure how anyone actually thinks I'm some sort of MOC supporter. Do I think he's treated unfairly? Absolutely. Do I think he's doing a good job? Absolutely not. If his contract was up tomorrow I wouldn't renew, and I've already said as much.

It just seems like yourself and irishbucsfan are annoyed that the posters you had been deriding for most of the season for wanting MOC to leave have proven to be correct. Now it's a case of well I accept THE argument that MOC has to leave but not YOUR argument that MOC has to leave.

Hagz

TommyOM wrote: »

I am not a professional coach, I don't know his training regime, I don't know what he's likes with the players or his general management but something's definitely off.

There's a problem. Nobody knows for definite what the problem is. Matt O'Connor could be the problem. Sack Matt O'Connor.

I'm not even sure there are so called 'MOC supporters', just people who, like you, don't know for definite what the problem is and are averse to sacking the coach because he could be the problem, when it has been one bad season.

.ak

TommyOM wrote: »

It just seems like yourself and irishbucsfan are annoyed that the posters you had been deriding for most of the season for wanting MOC to leave have proven to be correct. Now it's a case of well I accept THE argument that MOC has to leave but not YOUR argument that MOC has to leave.

Okay, enough. Now you're just accusing posters of deriding - i.e abuse. No more.

You've already been warned about this - if you're incapable of keeping the discussion around the merits of rugby (the reason we're all here) then you'll be taking a break from the forum. Consider this your final warning.

Interested Observer

.ak wrote: »

With all due respect you're wrong - please, prove otherwise.

If anyone actually cares to read my posts they'd know I'm very aware of MOC's failings. However, he's not the only reason we're failing at the moment. That's the point a lot of us are trying to make, yet we get tarred as 'MOC defenders'. It's becoming impossible to have any sort of reasoned debate anymore, it's becoming a boring tirade of 'US vs THEM!'.

No offence IO, but your post I've quote is a brilliant example of it. I can't be sure how anyone actually thinks I'm some sort of MOC supporter. Do I think he's treated unfairly? Absolutely. Do I think he's doing a good job? Absolutely not. If his contract was up tomorrow I wouldn't renew, and I've already said as much.

You asked the question in your post! To be honest you're probably right about the us v them thing, it doesn't achieve much.

In terms of MOC being treated unfairly, this forum is just hot air at the end of the day. If you don't think he's doing a good job then fair enough but that isn't something I've taken from your posts before really tbh.

TommyOM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So what you're saying is that you don't know enough about it to argue the point, but you know enough about it to be certain he's the problem.

I think when a team like Leinster are struggling for 5th place in the Pro 12 and struggling to beat some of the lower ranked teams then it says enough. The buck stops at MOC and even you admit he has to go so what is the problem here?

I am arguing that MOC has to go on the basis of Leinster's performances this season, why do you think he should go out of interest?

TommyOM

Hagz wrote: »

There's a problem. Nobody knows for definite what the problem is. Matt O'Connor could be the problem. Sack Matt O'Connor.

I'm not even sure there are so called 'MOC supporters', just people who, like you, don't know for definite what the problem is and are averse to sacking the coach because he could be the problem, when it has been one bad season.

Even when Leinster won the Pro 12 last season the manner of performances were very poor and many were not happy. I was willing to give him until January of this season though (although I wasn't happy)

.ak

Interested Observer wrote: »

You asked the question in your post! To be honest you're probably right about the us v them thing, it doesn't achieve much.

In terms of MOC being treated unfairly, this forum is just hot air at the end of the day. If you don't think he's doing a good job then fair enough but that isn't something I've taken from your posts before really tbh.

That's fair enough, but then you've just misunderstood my posts - I've just as many posts saying he's not doing a good job as anything else.

I think the debate often flares up when people want to discuss what the actual reasons for our dip in form are - or offer an alternative reason as to why we may be not playing well - with 'MOC defending', it just simply isn't the case.

irishbucsfan

TommyOM wrote: »

It just seems like yourself and irishbucsfan are annoyed that the posters you had been deriding for most of the season for wanting MOC to leave have proven to be correct. Now it's a case of well I accept THE argument that MOC has to leave but not YOUR argument that MOC has to leave.

You certainly aren't close to be proven right I'm afraid, this could just as easily turn out to be as correct as your interpretation of Cheika as an awful coach, of course. We'll see on that one.

TommyOM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You certainly aren't close to be proven right I'm afraid, this could just as easily turn out to be as correct as your interpretation of Cheika as an awful coach, of course. We'll see on that one.

I've said Cheika now isn't the same coach as he was when he was at Leinster. I think his time at Stade showed that he wasn't a great coach back then, certainly not the coach he is now. I felt he was the right fit for Leinster when he came in (less to do with coaching and more man management) However after winning the HC I felt it was time to part ways. I saw more potential in that group of players and thankfully I was proven right when Schmidt came along