Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

Clegg

total former wrote: »

I think Rob Kearney is the most under-rated player in Ireland. For a guy who has been undisputed first choice for Leinster and Ireland for 6 years, two Lions tours and a heap of medals, it's mad how often you see people here telling us he's crap.

I still think that particular honour goes to Heaslip. Been one of Ireland's outstanding performers for 7 years now, but seems to get a lot of hate from certain sections. Maybe it's just a vocal minority, but the disdain is real enough.

wise7

molloyjh wrote: »

Im not talking about reducing the reliance on the half backs, I'm talking about making their life easier by better ensuring they and everyone around them are on the same page. Instead the onus seems to be more on them to do it themselves on the fly which just heals the pressure on them. Like a lot of things we seem to put pressure on ourselves in what we do by asking ourselves more questions than we do opposition sides.

I agree we need new half backs too but we should still be able to make better use of the ones we have.

Yes we need new half backs. My worry now is that Madigan is playing so badly at 12, missing tackles that JS will not include him in the WC squad as Jackson is coming very good anyway. That means MOC will pick Madigan at 10 during Sept/Oct and still leave Marsh & Byrne gathering splinters. I also worry he will not start Luke Mc Grath and will opt for a short term import in his mid-thirties and/or persist with Reddan or Boss if one or other are not involved in the WC. This spiral just continues and yes the common denominator is an ill-suited head coach who quite frankly lost the plot a long time ago and is self-delusional in his excuse making.

Swiwi.

I think Leinster have fallen into the same trap as Munster before them by not knowing when to be cruel to be kind and culling the veterans at the end of 2013. It wasn't helped by BOD deciding to hang on one more year, no-one was going to say thanks but no thanks Brian. Now stuck with players like Reddan & Boss at 9, and the irony is Cooney going not too badly at Connacht. One plus about NZ losing the 30 something's overseas is the coach is never forced to have the talk no-one wants and say sorry buddy your time is up you're past it, we don't need you next season.

Buer

I think it's becoming a real possibility that Madigan doesn't go to the RWC at this point.

Swiwi.

Swiwi. wrote: »

I think Leinster have fallen into the same trap as Munster before them by not knowing when to be cruel to be kind and culling the veterans at the end of 2013. It wasn't helped by BOD deciding to hang on one more year, no-one was going to say thanks but no thanks Brian. Now stuck with players like Reddan & Boss at 9, and the irony is Cooney going not too badly at Connacht. One plus about NZ losing the 30 something's overseas is the coach is never forced to have the talk no-one wants and say sorry buddy your time is up you're past it, we don't need you next season.

I actually think that has very little to do with it tbh (though not saying he was brilliant in his final season or anything). Imo both Fitz and Te'o have done fairly well this season. The problem has been Leinster have absolutely no halfbacks of any real quality, and Madigan's form has seemed to completely collapse at 12 but he's needed to kick.

Swiwi.

Layla Young Goose-step wrote: »

I actually think that has very little to do with it tbh (though not saying he was brilliant in his final season or anything). Imo both Fitz and Te'o have done fairly well this season. The problem has been Leinster have absolutely no halfbacks of any real quality, and Madigan's form has seemed to completely collapse at 12 but he's needed to kick.

I don't think Brian's last season was particularly top drawer but being Brian it was still solid. What I'm meaning is that by keeping Brian on another year it gave Schmidt and MOC one less year to get the succession plan right. But yes I agree Leinster have had major issues this season with the inside backs. Once again if I was the new Leinster coach I would just cull the 2 veteran SHs & Madigan and promote youth.

Swiwi.

Swiwi. wrote: »

I don't think Brian's last season was particularly top drawer but being Brian it was still solid. What I'm meaning is that by keeping Brian on another year it gave Schmidt and MOC one less year to get the succession plan right. But yes I agree Leinster have had major issues this season with the inside backs. Once again if I was the new Leinster coach I would just cull the 2 veteran SHs & Madigan and promote youth.

There is genuinely a zero chance of that happening, though I do agree with you.

I'm sure people will respond that you need experience and whatever but that experience has lead to Leinster not being qualified for Europe after 20 games of the season and no playoffs.

Swiwi.

Layla Young Goose-step wrote: »

There is genuinely a zero chance of that happening, though I do agree with you.

I'm sure people will respond that you need experience and whatever but that experience has lead to Leinster not being qualified for Europe after 20 games of the season and no playoffs.

Out of interest and not just for Leinster has any big name ever not had a contract renewed or is everyone always allowed to retire on their own terms?

CatFromHue

Buer wrote: »

I think it's becoming a real possibility that Madigan doesn't go to the RWC at this point.

He won't be going as a 12, he won't be going as a 15, and he's behind Keatley and PJ now for 10. Not a good situation for him to be in.

Plus I'd say Schmidt would have a ****e attack if he tried that cross field kick that really should have been caught by the Treviso player last night.

CatFromHue

Swiwi. wrote: »

Out of interest and not just for Leinster has any big name ever not had a contract renewed or is everyone always allowed to retire on their own terms?

I always got the feeling that Mal O'Kelly wanted to stay on another year but he was on the way out at that stage.

stephen_n

It was bad planning holding on to both Boss and Reddan given their age profile, I think in the case of BOD though Leinster were just hugely unlucky with EOM Having his career cut short. Persisting into next season with both Boss and Reddan is ridiculously short sighted.

Swiwi.

Swiwi. wrote: »

Out of interest and not just for Leinster has any big name ever not had a contract renewed or is everyone always allowed to retire on their own terms?

I can't really think of anyone who has been retired.

wise7

Layla Young Goose-step wrote: »

There is genuinely a zero chance of that happening, though I do agree with you.

I'm sure people will respond that you need experience and whatever but that experience has lead to Leinster not being qualified for Europe after 20 games of the season and no playoffs.

I am fairly certain that if we had played Girv's best Leinster A selection against Treviso last night we would have won by 15 points+. That is the extent of the problem we have with a coach who is not up to getting the best out of what he selects and who selects not the best of what he has in actuality got at his disposal. He simply ignores youth in the backs.

vienne86

Just watching the match in Ravenhill, the Ulster forwards are better at passing that the Leinster backs have been in several matches this season.

.ak

Is there any possibility the rumour about Groom could be true?

ktulu123

total former wrote: »

I think Rob Kearney is the most under-rated player in Ireland. For a guy who has been undisputed first choice for Leinster and Ireland for 6 years, two Lions tours and a heap of medals, it's mad how often you see people here telling us he's crap.

Oh don't get me wrong, Rob is an unbelievable player, I would just love to see him attacking better like he has in previous seasons.

El_Duderino 09

CatFromHue wrote: »

He won't be going as a 12, he won't be going as a 15, and he's behind Keatley and PJ now for 10. Not a good situation for him to be in.

Plus I'd say Schmidt would have a ****e attack if he tried that cross field kick that really should have been caught by the Treviso player last night.

It's a real pity that madigan wasn't given the year to improve as a 10. At the beginning of the season it was the question every week. 'Will madigan or gopperth start' then gopperth had a few great games at 10 so madigan was shoved to 12. Then D'Arcy lost form and sexton signed for next year and gopperth went back to being average. There was no incentive to spend a year developing madigan because sexton was coming home and madigan was never supposed to be a 12.

MOC was always making the right decision in the moment but on hindsight he should have had a long term plan and stuck to it.

I really like madigan and really wish he was given the time to develop his craft. Madigan's not a great 12 so best thing for everyone is for Madigan to find a club who wants a 10 and Leinster get a proper 12.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's a real pity that madigan wasn't given the year to improve as a 10. At the beginning of the season it was the question every week. 'Will madigan or gopperth start' then gopperth had a few great games at 10 so madigan was shoved to 12. Then D'Arcy lost form and sexton signed for next year and gopperth went back to being average. There was no incentive to spend a year developing madigan because sexton was coming home and madigan was never supposed to be a 12.

MOC was always making the right decision in the moment but on hindsight he should have had a long term plan and stuck to it.

I really like madigan and really wish he was given the time to develop his craft. Madigan's not a great 12 so best thing for everyone is for Madigan to find a club who wants a 10 and Leinster get a proper 12.

I think the reality is is that Madigan just isn't that great. He had plenty of opportunity to impress at 10 over the past two years. He failed.

vienne86

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the reality is is that Madigan just isn't that great. He had plenty of opportunity to impress at 10 over the past two years. He failed.

He didn't tak his chances and now I would say his confidence is a bit shot - he seems to be all the time trying to impress by taking on everything himself. Pity, because he's a good player.

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the reality is is that Madigan just isn't that great. He had plenty of opportunity to impress at 10 over the past two years. He failed.

That's the thing. Do people think that the mistakes and issues he has in the 12 jersey aren't situations that he may face at 10 just as much and more? Most of his recent errors have come while wearing 12 on his back but in the 10 position.

El_Duderino 09

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think the reality is is that Madigan just isn't that great. He had plenty of opportunity to impress at 10 over the past two years. He failed.

I agree he isn't that great. I also wish he was given the opportunity to play 10 for a season without gopperth breathing down his neck. He was never backed as a 10. Make 1 mistake and gopperth was back in for the next game. People tend to learn by making a mistake and correcting it in the next game. Ruthless switching really worked for Boss and Redden. But hasn't worked for Madigan. Maybe I'm being too generous to Madzer

He's not top drawer but he's not improving by playing 12. He has so much bottle and I would like to see how good he can be if he got a season at 10.

JPCN1

Layla Young Goose-step wrote: »

I can't really think of anyone who has been retired.

Mike Ross? They only gave him a 1 year contract despite the fact he was trying very hard for 2.

Tim Robbins

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's a real pity that madigan wasn't given the year to improve as a 10. At the beginning of the season it was the question every week. 'Will madigan or gopperth start' then gopperth had a few great games at 10 so madigan was shoved to 12. Then D'Arcy lost form and sexton signed for next year and gopperth went back to being average. There was no incentive to spend a year developing madigan because sexton was coming home and madigan was never supposed to be a 12.

MOC was always making the right decision in the moment but on hindsight he should have had a long term plan and stuck to it.

I really like madigan and really wish he was given the time to develop his craft. Madigan's not a great 12 so best thing for everyone is for Madigan to find a club who wants a 10 and Leinster get a proper 12.

I don't think Mad can be a good 12 why? As much I love running rugby if there is one position in the back line you need to run a hard line it is 12. D'Arcy wasn't huge but he was a hard man to bring down, had a great leg drive and would run a good hard line when he had to and get over the gain line. Mads I think, likes the jinky jinky stuff too much and doesn't have the strength to run the hard line a 12 needs to do a few times in a match. He reminds me of someone like Austin Healy, nice feet but no-one can figure out where best to put him.

I know I brought it up before to try him at 9 but what about trying him on the wing? Healy played a bit there. Mads has a great step and on the wing he wouldn't have to think about playing percentages, he could just concentrate on attacking - beating the man in front of him. He could also come in off his wing and cause a bit of trouble with his skip pass. Other than that experiment, Madigan's best position is as an impact sub. He just doesn't have a steady enough head on him to play percentages, to drag his team through it when his pack are going backwards or to run hard lines at 12.

Heroditas

Brendan Fanning referring to the "Loonies on Line" today in his article.
The Indo really seems to be awfully sensitive about the online brigade.
First Hugh Farrelly, then his successor (can't remember his name), then Wardy and now Fanning.
Pretty thinskinned. The Sensitive Susans

Heroditas

Heroditas wrote: »

Brendan Fanning referring to the "Loonies on Line" today in his article.
The Indo really seems to be awfully sensitive about the online brigade.
First Hugh Farrelly, then his successor (can't remember his name), then Wardy and now Fanning.
Pretty thinskinned. The Sensitive Susans

I imagine they are referring to the more popular unmoderated spaces like Twitter and Facebook where people mostly talk vitriol.

Heroditas

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I imagine they are referring to the more popular unmoderated spaces like Twitter and Facebook where people mostly talk vitriol.

I imagine so but it's notable that they're the only paper that consistently does this

The paper that hired Conor George and put his articles up on their website really can't take the high ground imo.

Heroditas

Layla Young Goose-step wrote: »

The paper that hired Conor George and put his articles up on their website really can't take the high ground imo.

I couldn't remember his name!

vienne86

Layla Young Goose-step wrote: »

The paper that hired Conor George and put his articles up on their website really can't take the high ground imo.

Thoroughly agree with you there - no time for them.

The Parish King

Congrats to Sean Cronin on winning the players' player of the season, and Jack Conan on winning the Young Player award!