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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

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    #2672
    Taco Corp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭Taco Corp


    Have missed a fair few games this season but from what I did see and what I read on here thought Bent might have been a good pick for player of the year.


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    #2673
    Endthescam
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 156 ✭✭Endthescam


    Mahatma Geansai wrote: »
    Its along the lines of what I've been saying/thinking over the last few months. You don't fail to impress whenever you're away from home because of a terrible coach, you fail to impress then because of a lack of leaders/intelligence within the player base.

    Would Joe Schmidt allow that sort of culture to creep in though?


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    #2674
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,477 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Endthescam wrote: »
    Would Joe Schmidt allow that sort of culture to creep in though?

    you cant breed leadership

    leinster lost sexton, bod, cullen, nacewa... and big game players like thorn, hines etc

    not making excuses or suggesting thats the reason for the disappointing performances, but lets just be honest about what is and isnt within the coaches control


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    #2675
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,152 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Ruddock, Jennings, and Kev McLaughlin (anyone remember him?) have all been in and out of the injury room or for a good bit of the season and all would have been Captains when the Internationals were away.


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    #2676
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,609 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    you cant breed leadership

    You definitely can breed leadership. One of the simple policies JS introduced at Leinster was all the lads shaking hands when they arrived before training to get the more experienced players interacting on just a basic level with the less experienced players.

    But there are heaps of other ways you can breed leadership. If what Jenno says is true, and the atmosphere is poisonous it is the coaches fault.


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    #2677
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    errlloyd wrote: »
    If what Jenno says is true, and the atmosphere is poisonous it is the coaches fault.

    Those are some interesting dots you're connecting.

    I haven't read when Shane Jennings has said, but I'm guessing he wasn't suggesting that the atmosphere within the camp is poisonous.


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    #2678
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,975 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    All of that Jennings stuff is pretty much what he said in the post match farewell interview in the Laighin Out supporters bar on Friday night. There was nothing in his tone to suggest a poisonous atmosphere, he addressed it more or less as everyone else has - transition after a long period of exceptional success. D'Arcy looked very tense though, maybe he doesnt like crowd gigs or something.

    For my own part though, the malaise and dysfunction of Friday nights play, on top of a whole season of it, convinces me that only a new broom will refresh things, they have fallen so far. I dont actually care if its down to MOC or not, theres a broken link somewhere along the way, and he has to carry the can for it. I think he should be sacked now, do all the surgery at once and begin rebuilding for a year or twos time.


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    #2679
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,051 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    All of that Jennings stuff is pretty much what he said in the post match farewell interview in the Laighin Out supporters bar on Friday night. There was nothing in his tone to suggest a poisonous atmosphere, he addressed it more or less as everyone else has - transition after a long period of exceptional success. D'Arcy looked very tense though, maybe he doesnt like crowd gigs or something.

    For my own part though, the malaise and dysfunction of Friday nights play, on top of a whole season of it, convinces me that only a new broom will refresh things, they have fallen so far. I dont actually care if its down to MOC or not, theres a broken link somewhere along the way, and he has to carry the can for it. I think he should be sacked now, do all the surgery at once and begin rebuilding for a year or twos time.

    It's not a transition period from last season though. It's basically the exact same squad is it not?


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    #2680
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,975 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    It's not a transition period from last season though. It's basically the exact same squad is it not?

    Yes, so something else has to be fixed.


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    #2681
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    errlloyd wrote: »
    If what Jenno says is true, and the atmosphere is poisonous it is the coaches fault.

    Whoa.

    Let's be very clear on this. He didn't say anything of the kind.


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    #2682
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,224 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    D'Arcy looked very tense though, maybe he doesnt like crowd gigs or something.

    Never has done and actively avoids the spotlight. For a two time Lion and 80 cap international, how often have you seen him speak that wasn't compulsory after match interviews?


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    #2683
    its_phil
    Registered Users Posts: 5,442 ✭✭✭its_phil


    Buer wrote: »
    Never has done and actively avoids the spotlight. For a two time Lion and 80 cap international, how often have you seen him speak that wasn't compulsory after match interviews?

    He was on Second Captains a while back and looked pretty comfortable, but McDevitt is very good at doing that with his guests.


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    #2684
    Synode
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,967 ✭✭✭Synode


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Changing it to what?

    To a more structured style, with attacking set pieces that have been practiced over and over again. Or at the very least, to something different than what they've been doing, which is very little from an attacking point of view


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    #2685
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,609 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    total former wrote: »
    Whoa.

    Let's be very clear on this. He didn't say anything of the kind.

    Yeah potentially the adjective I should have used was unhealthy. Not necessarily poisonous


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    #2686
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,152 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    errlloyd wrote: »
    You definitely can breed leadership. One of the simple policies JS introduced at Leinster was all the lads shaking hands when they arrived before training to get the more experienced players interacting on just a basic level with the less experienced players.

    But there are heaps of other ways you can breed leadership. If what Jenno says is true, and the atmosphere is poisonous it is the coaches fault.

    I don't think breeds leadership just helps with getting a squad to know each other better.

    I think you can help to breed leaders but there has to be something in the person already that wants to be one.

    Another thing is that Leinster don't need a leader, they need a few leaders.

    Cullen, Nacewa, Jennings, McLaughlin, and Ruddock would all have Captained the team under Schmidt when the Internationals were away so there was a string leadership group then. We don't have that any more.


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    #2687
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    errlloyd wrote: »
    Yeah potentially the adjective I should have used was unhealthy. Not necessarily poisonous

    Jennings says that certain players expect success to come too easily and don't appreciate the level of work required to get it.

    I don't really see how that falls on the coach. Now, I'm not surprised that he's getting the flak for it but the logic is shaky at best.


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    #2688
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,609 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    I don't think breeds leadership just helps with getting a squad to know each other better.

    I know we're off topic here. But that is building leadership. Gaining better communication and familiarity with your leader builds respect. Everything works better. The best leaders in history didn't just show up and lead. They developed relationships and channels of communication to lead through.

    I guess there might be problems with culture clash, but I'd be purely speculating.


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    #2689
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,152 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    I think that's something leaders do not something that makes them a leader.


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    #2690
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    I don't think Leinster need leaders in a general sense. I think it's a very specific need. They need leaders specifically in the back-line, at half-back primarily. It's not the only need but it is a desperate need. A need that will hopefully be satisfied post World Cup, and conceivably before that.


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    #2691
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,609 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    total former wrote: »
    Jennings says that certain players expect success to come too easily and don't appreciate the level of work required to get it.

    I don't really see how that falls on the coach. Now, I'm not surprised that he's getting the flak for it but the logic is shaky at best.

    I was basing it off Cleggs initial response. But like again if the boys aren't working hard enough it's still up to the coach to get them to work harder. If they don't think they need to work he has to show them the things they need to work on.

    If what you say is true, and the problems are off the field then the coach is the only one equipped to fix it.


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    #2692
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Panti Bliss as new Leinster head coach? You heard it here first.....Neil Frances once again does not disappoint!

    http://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinsters-hope-is-merely-disappointment-deferred-31209529.html

    Franno hits the nail on the head though. It really is a coachless team - MOCs contribution is in the same class as his assorted list of clowns. And would probably play better if they didnt have to go through the motions of the now without doubt proven failure that is his game plan.

    Things were bad enough 2-3 months ago. Even I didnt see us plumbing the depths we have seen since.

    It so bad now, and so obvious to even the most tolerant, that he must go, and likely wont even need to be sacked.
    I expect his resignation after the last game.


    https://twitter.com/mocmocout
    mocmocout is gone a bit quiet lately. I guess everyone reckons its a done deal.
    The interest now is who has Leinster lined up to replace him.


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    #2693
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    Franno hits the nail on the head though. It really is a coachless team - MOCs contribution is in the same class as his assorted list of clowns. And would probably play better if they didnt have to go through the motions of the now without doubt proven failure that is his game plan.

    Things were bad enough 2-3 months ago. Even I didnt see us plumbing the depths we have seen since.

    It so bad now, and so obvious to even the most tolerant, that he must go, and likely wont even need to be sacked.
    I expect his resignation after the last game.
    Sorry but that's a dog**** remark. You have no idea what his contribution is or isn't. What about Cullen's contribution? What about Richie Murphy's contribution? I think the whole lot of them should be under question.


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    #2694
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    errlloyd wrote: »
    I was basing it off Cleggs initial response. But like again if the boys aren't working hard enough it's still up to the coach to get them to work harder. If they don't think they need to work he has to show them the things they need to work on.

    If what you say is true, and the problems are off the field then the coach is the only one equipped to fix it.

    I'm not saying anything, it's Jennings who is saying things, but posters here seem to be putting the polar opposite meaning onto those comments.

    I do agree that if players don't have the right attitude then it's up to the coach either to address that or show them the door, but that takes time (plus Leinster don't have full control over who gets dumped), hence I'd let MOC at least see out his contract.


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    #2695
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    Franno hits the nail on the head though. It really is a coachless team - MOCs contribution is in the same class as his assorted list of clowns.

    All joking aside this isn't acceptable and let it end there.


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    #2696
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    .ak wrote: »
    All joking aside this isn't acceptable and let it end there.

    Just to clarify, I was referring to Frannos list of clowns. Fair reference of an article in todays newspaper. If it is good enough for a printed national paper, I dont see why it should be off limits here.


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    #2697
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    Just to clarify, I was referring to Frannos list of clowns. Fair reference of an article in todays newspaper. If it is good enough for a printed national paper, I dont see why it should be off limits here.

    I know what you're referring to and I don't think referring to Panti as a clown is appropriate conversation or relievent. But that's all on the matter - if anyone has any queries they can can be made via PM.


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    #2698
    LEIN
    Moderators Posts: 9,936 ✭✭✭LEIN


    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=450079035161087&id=165739246928402




    Facepalm_(1).png


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    #2699
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,748 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    I don't think breeds leadership just helps with getting a squad to know each other better.

    I think you can help to breed leaders but there has to be something in the person already that wants to be one.

    Another thing is that Leinster don't need a leader, they need a few leaders.

    Cullen, Nacewa, Jennings, McLaughlin, and Ruddock would all have Captained the team under Schmidt when the Internationals were away so there was a string leadership group then. We don't have that any more.

    The thing about being a leader though is that you need to be empowered and encouraged first. As a young player with a load of more senior lads around you it can be very intimidating and very difficult to stand up and be counted. What things like the morning hand shake do is break down the barriers between the senior players and the younger players and opens up the "environment". So while you can't breed leaders per se, you can encourage and develop leaders.

    Now we only see the quotes from Jenno that the Indo decided to publish, but reading them he seems to be talking about Heineken Cup winners who aren't in the internationals set-up:
    Shane Jennings wrote:
    There are guys who have come into an environment where they've won Heineken Cups but maybe not understood what it took to get at that level........our league position isn't good enough. Last year during the 6 Nations, we got 19 points out of 20 in the Pro12. This year we got 8 or 9. Our away record is terrible. That's about a group of guys who have to take ownership of the team while the internationals are away, to give the coach hard decisions to make when the internationals come back.

    Who exactly does that cover? The likes of the Fergs, Dave Kearneys etc? Those guys who aren't quite the young lads, but not the older heads. But there aren't many of these guys in the squad really. And we've heard how important Ferg is to the squad. So I'm somewhat at a loss as to exactly what Jenno was getting at there. Unless of course the above is an edited version of what Jenno said.....


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    #2700
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    LEIN wrote: »
    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=450079035161087&id=165739246928402




    Facepalm_(1).png

    romney.gif?w=650


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    #2701
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,152 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    I'd take what Jennings said not to be just limited to guys who've won HEC medals but just some of the wider squad.

    Certainly the form of Gopps, Madigan, Ryan, and DK has been poor this season.

    Murphy has had some iffy games too and Conan in the second part of the season has also been poor. In fairness to Conan though it's still only his first season.

    Even McFadden has been falling off some tackles in the Pro12 so I wouldn't rule him out either, he's been poor in a few games.


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