Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

total former

molloyjh wrote: »

Now we only see the quotes from Jenno that the Indo decided to publish, but reading them he seems to be talking about Heineken Cup winners who aren't in the internationals set-up:

Who exactly does that cover? The likes of the Fergs, Dave Kearneys etc? Those guys who aren't quite the young lads, but not the older heads. But there aren't many of these guys in the squad really. And we've heard how important Ferg is to the squad. So I'm somewhat at a loss as to exactly what Jenno was getting at there. Unless of course the above is an edited version of what Jenno said.....

The Indo? You mean the Sunday Times?

But he's never going to actually name names as to who he's talking about. The overall point is the more important thing.

duckysauce

LEIN wrote: »

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=450079035161087&id=165739246928402

what's that for ? a coach that's making excuses for the next season already ___ that's shocking , saying players will be missing for WC . Cullen and him have ruined a class team.

Interested Observer

duckysauce wrote: »

what's that for ? a coach that's making excuses for the next season already ___ that's shocking , saying players will be missing for WC . Cullen and him have ruined a class team.

Link doesn't work for me (on my phone), can anyone post the contents?

dregin

Interested Observer wrote: »

Link doesn't work for me (on my phone), can anyone post the contents?

On a laptop here and not working for me either.

LEIN

duckysauce wrote: »

what's that for ? a coach that's making excuses for the next season already ___ that's shocking , saying players will be missing for WC . Cullen and him have ruined a class team.

It's seriously embarrassing for province and fan.

LEIN

Interested Observer wrote: »

Link doesn't work for me (on my phone), can anyone post the contents?

dregin wrote: »

On a laptop here and not working for me either.

Post was deleted.

.ak

Just to clarify, that's not an official page.

.. is it?

LEIN

.ak wrote: »

Just to clarify, that's not an official page.

.. is it?

No.

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

The Indo? You mean the Sunday Times?

But he's never going to actually name names as to who he's talking about. The overall point is the more important thing.

Sorry yeah the Times. I'm not expecting him to name names, I'm just trying to suss out what he meant. The article suggests he thinks internationals need to step up more and be more selfless, but the actual quotes suggest he thinks the wider squad need to step up when the internationals are away. Maybe he said both or maybe the ST is misrepresenting him to a degree. But even his actual quotes suggest the lads in the middle, those who've been around a couple of years but aren't in the national squad, are the ones who need to step up.

.ak

I'm very much of the belief that there is no better or worse fans, and I'm delighted that we're so privileged to have so many people willing to pay money to go see our players play.

However, the people behind that page/petition are not fans and I'd gladly have nothing to do with them. That's not how we do things here.

Unfortunately their actions are a blight on the branch. People from outside the province will be laughing at us no doubt. They're doing more harm than good (not that doing good was ever their intention).

Dave_The_Sheep

While I applaud the sentiment, there's a touch of "no true Scotsman" about that, ak.

There may not be "better or worse" fans, but there are fans who do more* to support their team than others for whatever reason (in terms of going to games, buying STHs). I'd be genuinely curious as to what 'kind' of fans the page-creators are.

*Before anyone points it out, I'm not saying that STHs for example are better than other fans, and there are plenty of massive Leinster fans that aren't STH's for whatever reason, and that's grand.

OldRio

I'm not sure how many people on here are leaders in their chosen profession?
Management and leadership of a group of individuals is a difficult job.

If you fail the team fails. If the team fails you have failed. You, as the leader are entirely responsible for the actions of your men/women. No excuses.

In the end, the people who pay the bills will decide on the success or otherwise of a leader. For the sake of Leinster and Irish rugby lets hope they make the correct call.

phog

.ak wrote: »

Just to clarify, that's not an official page.

.. is it?

Is there not breach of copyright there?

total former

molloyjh wrote: »

Sorry yeah the Times. I'm not expecting him to name names, I'm just trying to suss out what he meant. The article suggests he thinks internationals need to step up more and be more selfless, but the actual quotes suggest he thinks the wider squad need to step up when the internationals are away. Maybe he said both or maybe the ST is misrepresenting him to a degree. But even his actual quotes suggest the lads in the middle, those who've been around a couple of years but aren't in the national squad, are the ones who need to step up.

I think he was making two distinct points (at least that's my take on it).

1) That there are guys in the squad who have won HECs but weren't there for the hard slog that led to those triumphs, so don't realise the amount of work that went into those wins. So you could, if you wanted, look at the European-winning teams, figure out who wasn't there in the transformative days of the Cheika era and try to guess who he's talking about...

2) That the guys who played during the 6N window just didn't perform.

I don't think the people involved in (1) and (2) are necessarily the same, although there would have to be overlap. That was my take on it anyway.

Certainly, there have been enough sh*t performances this season to fill all manner of subcategories of people who aren't performing*; it's interesting to get an inside view on why that might be the case. I'm sure Jennings has opinions on the coach too, positive or negative, maybe we'll get to hear those in time too.

(*Jennings himself has been pretty ropey at times, and he should be one of the senior guys drilling attitudes into the younger ones, so maybe there's a stones-glass house situation going on here.)

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

Is there not breach of copyright there?

You mean infringing on Leinster? I don't think so as they aren't using the Leinster Rugby logo on that change.org page. Whether the Leinster Live person can use a modified version of the harp as his own logo, I don't know.

To be honest even if there was a copyright infringement there's no way Leinster should draw attention to crap like this. This is the stuff that gives people like Tony Ward ammunition.

If people REALLY want Matt O'Connor out, the best way is to hit Leinster where it hurts. Don't renew your season ticket, don't go to matches and don't buy merchandise. That's really the only voice supporters have. (I'm not advocating doing it but it's what I would do if I felt that strongly.)

.ak

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

While I applaud the sentiment, there's a touch of "no true Scotsman" about that, ak.

There may not be "better or worse" fans, but there are fans who do more* to support their team than others for whatever reason (in terms of going to games, buying STHs). I'd be genuinely curious as to what 'kind' of fans the page-creators are.

*Before anyone points it out, I'm not saying that STHs for example are better than other fans, and there are plenty of massive Leinster fans that aren't STH's for whatever reason, and that's grand.

Fair enough, but I'm not really worried about offending anyone who thinks it's okay to make that sort of petition to get someone the sack in fairness. They're not fans in my book.

.ak

phog wrote: »

Is there not breach of copyright there?

They could probably ask them to remove the logo I'd say, yeah. But FB is a weird thing, until someone from the branch actually complains then they don't have to take it down.

thomond2006

.ak wrote: »

They could probably ask them to remove the logo I'd say, yeah. But FB is a weird thing, until someone from the branch actually complains then they don't have to take it down.

That would give this legitimacy which is the last thing Leinster or anyone would want.

yosser hughes

OldRio wrote: »

I'm not sure how many people on here are leaders in their chosen profession?
Management and leadership of a group of individuals is a difficult job.

If you fail the team fails. If the team fails you have failed. You, as the leader are entirely responsible for the actions of your men/women. No excuses.

In the end, the people who pay the bills will decide on the success or otherwise of a leader. For the sake of Leinster and Irish rugby lets hope they make the correct call.

Agreed. The buck HAS to stop with someone. That person is MO'C however unfair you may think that is. He is the head coach. If his half backs are failing to execute his game plan, then he needs to change something. Either the half backs or the plan. He has failed to do either.

Ian Madigan should leave if he wants to rescue his career.

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

I think he was making two distinct points (at least that's my take on it).

1) That there are guys in the squad who have won HECs but weren't there for the hard slog that led to those triumphs, so don't realise the amount of work that went into those wins. So you could, if you wanted, look at the European-winning teams, figure out who wasn't there in the transformative days of the Cheika era and try to guess who he's talking about...

2) That the guys who played during the 6N window just didn't perform.

I don't think the people involved in (1) and (2) are necessarily the same, although there would have to be overlap. That was my take on it anyway.

Certainly, there have been enough sh*t performances this season to fill all manner of subcategories of people who aren't performing*; it's interesting to get an inside view on why that might be the case. I'm sure Jennings has opinions on the coach too, positive or negative, maybe we'll get to hear those in time too.

(*Jennings himself has been pretty ropey at times, and he should be one of the senior guys drilling attitudes into the younger ones, so maybe there's a stones-glass house situation going on here.)

Yeah that makes the most sense, and ultimately what I think myself. The thing is though the way that the paper have written it makes it hard to know for sure.

.ak wrote: »

Fair enough, but I'm not really worried about offending anyone who thinks it's okay to make that sort of petition to get someone the sack in fairness. They're not fans in my book.

I don't in any way agree with the petition. That page was one of those random ones I liked on Facebook and when I saw that I immediately unliked it. However saying they aren't fans is a bit much I think.

Is it poor form? Yes. Can we say that whoever did it was being a bit of a dick? Yes. But who are we to decide who can be qualified as a fan and who can't? We don't know the first thing about the person who set up the petition. We don't know how long they've been fans or how much time and money they've invested in Leinster over that period.

SaveOurLyric

total former wrote: »

Certainly, there have been enough sh*t performances this season to fill all manner of subcategories of people who aren't performing*; it's interesting to get an inside view on why that might be the case.

When all subcategories of people arent performing, then everyone is given a pass. Except the coach. The bad performances have been there to varying degrees with all combinations of players and in all positions. Its not just the half backs. Its not just when there are a spate of injuries, its not just when the starting internationals are away, its not just the backs, its not just the pack, its not the lack of a front row, its not just a bad dip in form, its not.....whatever.
Its just bad and directionless all the time.
Which leaves only one common denominator.

scott1974

Kinda sums up the season.. not a single Leinster player in the 15

http://www.pro12rugby.com/news/17304.php#b9ugFB5wubA4z3OA.97

molloyjh

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/guinness-pro12/oconnor-insists-theres-huge-positives-in-finishing-fifth-31211545.html

MOC wrote:

I think the frustration has been that we've lost tight games in the league. We've had three draws but, if I think back over the course of the Pro12 season, there hasn't been too many games that we haven't been in. Munster away is probably the only game that we didn't have a chance of winning. There are huge positives even in finishing fifth or being fifth in the table at the moment.

Someone needs to remind him about the game against Munster in the Aviva where, even with them getting 4 yellow cards, we couldn't even manage a LBP. And that being 5th is our worst finish in 11 years. That severely limits the positives that can be taken from this.

Also the problem they are talking about is with the players and their levels of focus in tight games. There seems to be no recognition that the game we are trying to play simply isn't working. Assuming MOC is staying on then someone needs to sit down with him and explain in no uncertain terms that what he is trying to do isn't working and things need to change. Otherwise next season could be even worse than this. Because right now it seems to me that there is a huge level of denial going on there. Maybe this is just the front they are putting out, but so far I've seen nothing to believe that to be the case.

SaveOurLyric

scott1974 wrote: »

Kinda sums up the season.. not a single Leinster player in the 15

http://www.pro12rugby.com/news/17304.php#b9ugFB5wubA4z3OA.97

And they dont deserve if for how they have looked playing for Leinster.

Yet we can guess how many Leinster players would truly be picked if Joe Schmidt were selecting his world cup squad from the Pro 12 teams.

thomond2006

molloyjh wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/guinness-pro12/oconnor-insists-theres-huge-positives-in-finishing-fifth-31211545.html

Someone needs to remind him about the game against Munster in the Aviva where, even with them getting 4 yellow cards, we couldn't even manage a LBP. And that being 5th is our worst finish in 11 years. That severely limits the positives that can be taken from this.

I agree, that was certainly a game where Leinster weren't close until Munster lost their discipline and picked up silly yellow cards. When we started losing players in the pack Leinster were given an opportunity to come back after a first half where Munster's pack were very dominant (Cronin's try as an example).

CatFromHue

It looks like you need a min of 11 starts to get on the team so the Leinster guys who've made 11 or more starts are:

Gopperth, ZK, Dom Ryan, McCarthy, Bent, Conan, Douglas, Fanning, McFadden, Madigan, DK, and Strauss.

None of them would be close to the guys who made the Pro12 team no matter who they played for/under.

thomond2006

CatFromHue wrote: »

It looks like you need a min of 11 starts to get on the team so the Leinster guys who've made 11 or more starts are:

Gopperth, ZK, Dom Ryan, McCarthy, Bent, Conan, Douglas, Fanning, McFadden, Madigan, DK, and Strauss.

None of them would be close to the guys who made the Pro12 team no matter who they played for/under.

How very dare you.

Buer

Good to see them introduce such criteria for making the team as previous selections have been a joke. I think it was BOD who made it before with 6 starts to his name one season.

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

Good to see them introduce such criteria for making the team as previous selections have been a joke. I think it was BOD who made it before with 6 starts to his name one season.

Yeah I think Martyn Williams got in one year with 7 or 8 starts.

CatFromHue

It is interesting look at past season appearances.

In 12/13, Schmidts last season, Cullen, Toner, Jennings, Kev McLaughlin, and Nacewa were in the list of 11+ starts.

In 11/12 the 11+ guys contained: Toner, Nacewa, H. van der Merwe, Ruddock, McLaughlin, Fitzgerald, EOM, Damien Browne, and Jennings.

Our 11+ guys this year are nowhere near as good as either of those years.