Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

irishbucsfan

fitz wrote: »

I think the problem is that he seems to either be incapable or unwilling to change what he's doing in order to address the issues. It's not just this season, it started last season. Look at the Toulon game last year, how predictable we were in attack, and how we kept getting driven back...it's very much how we've played this year and the same things went wrong.

It's that definition of insanity saying...doing the same thing again and again, expecting different results. Either MOC is too stubborn to accept that what he's tried to do with the team is not working, or he's not able to adapt his approach to try and correct it.

Now, I know we can't expect much from press comments, but some of what he's come out with comes across as delusional tbh. "Huge positives" - seriously?

Surely the Toulon game is a woeful example of him not being willing to make changes, considering the massive improvement we saw this year when he got the half-back selection decision right?

He simply hasn't been doing the same thing again and again, there have been big changes made, including with selection policy. That's a massive red herring.

My issues with MOC extend to our fading defense and the dire performances from our half backs. I don't have any issue with him outside that, I don't really think the fault for anything outside that has been driven by coaching at all. 80% of our problems (including defense) on the field have been coming from 9/10 and also from losing key set pieces. That is what needs to be addressed, and the forwards are getting there. He hasn't found a solution to the half back problems from the players he was given when he arrived but Sexton is back next year and hopefully they will still be able to find a 9. With better personnel, translating to the eradication of our horrific territory game, we will see a drastic improvement in both our attack and defense. These "unforced errors" are a red herring, our problem is where we're playing the game on the field.

fitz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Surely the Toulon game is a woeful example of him not being willing to make changes, considering the massive improvement we saw this year when he got the half-back selection decision right?

He simply hasn't been doing the same thing again and again, there have been big changes made, including with selection policy. That's a massive red herring.

My issues with MOC extend to our fading defense and the dire performances from our half backs. I don't have any issue with him outside that, I don't really think the fault for anything outside that has been driven by coaching at all. 80% of our problems (including defense) on the field have been coming from 9/10 and also from losing key set pieces. That is what needs to be addressed, and the forwards are getting there. He hasn't found a solution to the half back problems from the players he was given when he arrived but Sexton is back next year and hopefully they will still be able to find a 9. With better personnel, translating to the eradication of our horrific territory game, we will see a drastic improvement in both our attack and defense. These "unforced errors" are a red herring, our problem is where we're playing the game on the field.

What I meant was that last year's Toulon game is something of a template for how we've looked this year. This year's Toulon game was one our outlier performances. He got it right for that game, why can't he get it right consistently? The lack of consistency makes good performances look like flukes.

You're right about the out-half problem, but I think you're overstating it.
I don't think the problem is fully at the feet of the half-backs abilities, I think there's a bit of that, and there's a bit of how they're being asked to play (or the lack of how they're being asked to play - the lack of structure has been brought up before). I also think O'Connor's handling of Madigan last year has set him back a couple of years, which has only exacerbated what you're saying about the problems at 10.

irishbucsfan

fitz wrote: »

What I meant was that last year's Toulon game is something of a template for how we've looked this year. This year's Toulon game was one our outlier performances. He got it right for that game, why can't he get it right consistently? The lack of consistency makes good performances look like flukes.

It's very convenient to say that he is incapable of changing or adapting and then call a very strong example of how he has changed and adapted his gameplan a fluke.

fitz wrote: »

You're right about the out-half problem, but I think you're overstating it.
I don't think the problem is fully at the feet of the half-backs abilities, I think there's a bit of that, and there's a bit of how they're being asked to play (or the lack of how they're being asked to play - the lack of structure has been brought up before). I also think O'Connor's handling of Madigan last year has set him back a couple of years, which has only exacerbated what you're saying about the problems at 10.

I don't think I'm overstating it at all, I think if anything it's being understated by anyone else. I'm not saying that the problems with our half backs are entirely down to their own abilities (although that is a major part of it), the way they're being asked to play is certainly not helping them, but unfortunately there is no other way that this Leinster team could play without a stronger set piece or pack to rely on.

Would you care to point out how a team with a weakness at half back is supposed to enforce a structured game plan? Who drives that sort of game plan?

stephen_n

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Surely the Toulon game is a woeful example of him not being willing to make changes, considering the massive improvement we saw this year when he got the half-back selection decision right?

He simply hasn't been doing the same thing again and again, there have been big changes made, including with selection policy. That's a massive red herring.

My issues with MOC extend to our fading defense and the dire performances from our half backs. I don't have any issue with him outside that, I don't really think the fault for anything outside that has been driven by coaching at all. 80% of our problems (including defense) on the field have been coming from 9/10 and also from losing key set pieces. That is what needs to be addressed, and the forwards are getting there. He hasn't found a solution to the half back problems from the players he was given when he arrived but Sexton is back next year and hopefully they will still be able to find a 9. With better personnel, translating to the eradication of our horrific territory game, we will see a drastic improvement in both our attack and defense. These "unforced errors" are a red herring, our problem is where we're playing the game on the field.

The issue id have with that is the options available to the half backs, particularly to whoever is playing 9, yes the execution and decision making from 9/10 has been poor but so is what's on offer. It still comes down to three phases, headless chickens not having a clue where to go next and hey presto we'll pass to a forward standing still. What's the 9 supposed to do with that? Pass to the 10 for an under pressure kick or crab across the field losing yards. That scenario was played out so many times in every game this season, yes it's poor play from our halfbacks but it's poor play within a system that gives few options.

.ak

Last year's Toulon game is terrible example. We changed up our half backs AND we played well despite getting a pasting in the final quarter. We attacked really well as I remember, plenty of line breaks, but our final pass let us down on more than one occasion.

I think the idea that this management haven't changed their approach from game to game is ridiculously short sighted imo.

We've approached games very differently all year. The only thing that's really been consistent is how poor we've been as a whole.

irishbucsfan

stephen_n wrote: »

The issue id have with that is the options available to the half backs, particularly to whoever is playing 9, yes the execution and decision making from 9/10 has been poor but so is what's on offer. It still comes down to three phases, headless chickens not having a clue where to go next and hey presto we'll pass to a forward standing still. What's the 9 supposed to do with that? Pass to the 10 for an under pressure kick or crab across the field losing yards. That scenario was played out so many times in every game this season, yes it's poor play from our halfbacks but it's poor play within a system that gives few options.

But if there aren't options available to the half backs then you dispose of possession, that's why you need strong decision makers at half backs. Those static forwards exist under Schmidt/Easterby, look at the videos of those games, but for Ireland our half backs have a greater range of options thanks to their own abilities, which is why we were disposing of possession on 3rd phase in the French half at one point (as one example).

I definitely think our failures at half back can be laid at the feet of MOC, they've been consistently poor and I think they're actually capable of better but the leadership hasn't been present in the squad or from the coaches to demand it of them. That's why I would look to replace him with someone with experience in that role if given the choice. That doesn't stop the critcism he receives here being incredibly wide of the mark at times, from the "what gameplan" brigade in particular.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

But if there aren't options available to the half backs then you dispose of possession, that's why you need strong decision makers at half backs. Those static forwards exist under Schmidt/Easterby, look at the videos of those games, but for Ireland our half backs have a greater range of options thanks to their own abilities, which is why we were disposing of possession on 3rd phase in the French half at one point (as one example).

They were disposing of it because that was the prescribed plan. Take advantage of the lesser number in the defensive line until we can drag the cover in behind up a little bit. It's no surprise that the majority of the time when we disposed of the ball we did so down Thomas' wing. They expected us to kick so they had 3 men back at all times with the 9 sweeping behind the line. So we tried to expose Thomas' positioning by putting it through the hands and targeting his wing. This forced him into making a decision. Join the line or stay back. He got caught in between a few times and we made hay with that.

From where I was sitting that looked to be a very deliberate ploy from Ireland that everyone understood and bought in to.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I definitely think our failures at half back can be laid at the feet of MOC, they've been consistently poor and I think they're actually capable of better but the leadership hasn't been present in the squad or from the coaches to demand it of them. That's why I would look to replace him with someone with experience in that role if given the choice. That doesn't stop the critcism he receives here being incredibly wide of the mark at times, from the "what gameplan" brigade in particular.

This is probably the main reason why I want him gone next season. We are seeing no sign of us bringing in a new 9 or 10 at the moment (despite some rumours re Groom) and we are potentially looking at a situation where we need our coach to get the best from young, inexperienced half-backs. I don't think he's capable of that.

total former

I note that in the list of departing players who were acknowledged the other night, Dundon isn't mentioned so maybe he is staying on - could be very useful assuming Cronin and Strauss go to the RWC. Confirmation that Marshall is gone also, I know he wasn't in the list of renewed players but don't think his departure was announced either.

Fellow departees Jimmy Gopperth, Quinn Roux, John Cooney, Ben Marshall, Sam Coghlan Murray, Brendan Macken and Sean McCarthy were also honoured for their contribution to Leinster Rugby with President John Glackin awarding those in attendance with their caps.

Sean McCarthy, sheesh.

thomond2006

total former wrote: »

Sean McCarthy, sheesh.

He finally gets a cap! :pac:

fitz

.ak wrote: »

Last year's Toulon game is terrible example. We changed up our half backs AND we played well despite getting a pasting in the final quarter. We attacked really well as I remember, plenty of line breaks, but our final pass let us down on more than one occasion.

I think the idea that this management haven't changed their approach from game to game is ridiculously short sighted imo.

We've approached games very differently all year. The only thing that's really been consistent is how poor we've been as a whole.

My abiding memory of Toulon last year was one out runners getting driven back behind the gain line. Maybe I'm just not seeing what you and IBF are, which I accept it's a possibility, but from my perspective, the problems in the poor performances seem to be the same.

.ak

We do use a lot of one out runners, and it's a pain to watch when it doesn't work, but we definitely don't limit ourselves to that.

All of BOD, Darce and Kearney made good clean line breaks in the opening quarter of that game. It was our defence that looked shakey, I wouldn't say there was an issue with our attack apart from the fact the final pass just wouldn't stick.

thomond2006

Any word on where Macken and Marshall could end up?

.ak

thomond2006 wrote: »

Any word on where Macken and Marshall could end up?

Is Macken not going to the cherries?

thomond2006

.ak wrote: »

Is Macken not going to the cherries?

He's already there but it's only a loan. I haven't seen anything about a permanent deal.

total former

thomond2006 wrote: »

Any word on where Macken and Marshall could end up?

Macken played the full 80 for Glaws at the weekend but no news of a deal for next season.

Haven't heard anything about Marshall.

In related news, it's great to see Cooney thriving over in Connacht after a stop-start beginning. Hopefully by this time next year he'll have come on even further and can come back home a much improved player.

thomond2006

It wouldn't surprise me if Munster are interested in Macken as a squad player tbh. It would make more sense than signing Jordan Coghlan anyway!

stephen_n

irishbucsfan wrote: »

But if there aren't options available to the half backs then you dispose of possession, that's why you need strong decision makers at half backs. Those static forwards exist under Schmidt/Easterby, look at the videos of those games, but for Ireland our half backs have a greater range of options thanks to their own abilities, which is why we were disposing of possession on 3rd phase in the French half at one point (as one example).

I definitely think our failures at half back can be laid at the feet of MOC, they've been consistently poor and I think they're actually capable of better but the leadership hasn't been present in the squad or from the coaches to demand it of them. That's why I would look to replace him with someone with experience in that role if given the choice. That doesn't stop the critcism he receives here being incredibly wide of the mark at times, from the "what gameplan" brigade in particular.

I'm sure MOC would point to not being able to bring in more players to increase competition, player absences etc for his inability to get the halfbacks performing properly. I still think the gameplan doesn't suit the inherent weakness in Reddan and Goperths games, it's not like either player is a poor player or not good enough for this level, yet the performance is not there. Boss is an interesting one because he was brutal in the first half of the season but has been very good for the most part in the second half of the season but even with him playing well and making better decisions the problems have persisited. Now is the game management outside him negating that change or is the problem bigger than just individual perfromance?

.ak wrote: »

We do use a lot of one out runners, and it's a pain to watch when it doesn't work, but we definitely don't limit ourselves to that.

All of BOD, Darce and Kearney made good clean line breaks in the opening quarter of that game. It was our defence that looked shakey, I wouldn't say there was an issue with our attack apart from the fact the final pass just wouldn't stick.

We have made good line breaks this season too but failed to capitalise on them in the follow up, there is more to attacking than clean line breaks and there has been a consistent problem with what happens next both last season and this.

stephen_n

total former wrote: »

Haven't heard anything about Marshall.

I don't think we should have let him go, he looks very promising and McCarthy is getting on at this stage, a one year extension would have made sense.

.ak

stephen_n wrote: »

We have made good line breaks this season too but failed to capitalise on them in the follow up, there is more to attacking than clean line breaks and there has been a consistent problem with what happens next both last season and this.

True, but you know yourself a lot of the work is engineering that initial line break. Most coaches will tell you can't plan what happens after the break, like most coaches will tell you to forget multi-phase/pass attacks as when it breaks down you don't react to it naturally.

But you're right, the 'what happens next' element has been lacking, and frankly I think our defensive structures stop our support play. We don't like to defend too narrow, and the best way to ensure that is to spread out in attack too. If you're 10m away expecting a pass and the player makes a line break instead it's very hard to make the support line at that stage.

That's where Schmidt excelled, making sure the carriers were supported at the right phase. A lot of what Schmidt coaches was heads up, he said in an interview they don't do much in terms of planning attack after 1st phase, but the key is to have the players positioned for that opportunity.

stephen_n

.ak wrote: »

True, but you know yourself a lot of the work is engineering that initial line break. Most coaches will tell you can't plan what happens after the break, like most coaches will tell you to forget multi-phase/pass attacks as when it breaks down you don't react to it naturally.

But you're right, the 'what happens next' element has been lacking, and frankly I think our defensive structures stop our support play. We don't like to defend too narrow, and the best way to ensure that is to spread out in attack too. If you're 10m away expecting a pass and the player makes a line break instead it's very hard to make the support line at that stage.

That's where Schmidt excelled, making sure the carriers were supported at the right phase. A lot of what Schmidt coaches was heads up, he said in an interview they don't do much in terms of planning attack after 1st phase, but the key is to have the players positioned for that opportunity.

You may have hit the nail on the head there though, the problem maybe the interaction between defence and attack, the support lines don't seem to be there and maybe that's why.

LostArt

thomond2006 wrote: »

Any word on where Macken and Marshall could end up?

Macken's got a few offers, including Irish and English. Last I heard nothing was agreed though.

total former

stephen_n wrote: »

I don't think we should have let him go, he looks very promising and McCarthy is getting on at this stage, a one year extension would have made sense.

Maybe we did but he might not have wanted to take whatever was on the table?

He might have looked at the impending arrival of Kearney or the slim chances of breaking into the first team with Toner, Douglas and McCarthy all ahead of him and just said he'd try his luck elsewhere. If so, fair play to him.

irishbucsfan

stephen_n wrote: »

You may have hit the nail on the head there though, the problem maybe the interaction between defence and attack, the support lines don't seem to be there and maybe that's why.

It's almost it, but the biggest problem has been that the field position of first phase has been far deeper than we've had it for years and years. Every game where we've struggled has had the same problem. Against Treviso we couldn't get out of our own half for most of the game, and when we did we'd mess up the lineout or knock it on within a couple of phases.

Our attack looks stale because it's been mostly in our own half. When we get our exit strategy right and when we (rarely) don't screw up our lineouts we make good ground and we even score good tries. But that's incredibly rare for this team at the moment. If we were playing rugby in Treviso's half last weekend we would have been far more dangerous. It's entirely down to the half backs and pack to deliver that though, and using the Treviso game again as an example it was almost entirely down to terrible execution from Gopperth/Reddan. Why on earth Reddan started on a rainy windy night like that I simply cannot understand.

.ak

total former wrote: »

Maybe we did but he might not have wanted to take whatever was on the table?

He might have looked at the impending arrival of Kearney or the slim chances of breaking into the first team with Toner, Douglas and McCarthy all ahead of him and just said he'd try his luck elsewhere. If so, fair play to him.

And Denton.

Although Marshall had a great end to the season in his cameos I thought. He's potentially a fantastic player, has great hands and pace for a lock.

stephen_n

total former wrote: »

Maybe we did but he might not have wanted to take whatever was on the table?

He might have looked at the impending arrival of Kearney or the slim chances of breaking into the first team with Toner, Douglas and McCarthy all ahead of him and just said he'd try his luck elsewhere. If so, fair play to him.

True enough, just the little I have seen of him play I've been very impressed, if he decided to go then very much fair play to him and I hope he comes back some time in the future. In a choice between him and Denton staying though I'd choose him but as we have no idea of the contract negotiations, who knows why it worked out that way.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's almost it, but the biggest problem has been that the field position of first phase has been far deeper than we've had it for years and years. Every game where we've struggled has had the same problem. Against Treviso we couldn't get out of our own half for most of the game, and when we did we'd mess up the lineout or knock it on within a couple of phases.

Our attack looks stale because it's been mostly in our own half. When we get our exit strategy right and when we (rarely) don't screw up our lineouts we make good ground and we even score good tries. But that's incredibly rare for this team at the moment. If we were playing rugby in Treviso's half last weekend we would have been far more dangerous. It's entirely down to the half backs and pack to deliver that though, and using the Treviso game again as an example it was almost entirely down to terrible execution from Gopperth/Reddan. Why on earth Reddan started on a rainy windy night like that I simply cannot understand.

Reddan shouldn't be starting or benching at the moment, I know McGrath has failed to take his chances but Reddan's form has fallen off a cliff and even on good form the conditions for that game would not have suited him.

sydthebeat

Big Dev leinster player of the month for april

not really the recognition you want when your teams 0 for 3 in the month......

total former

Only peripherally related to Leinster, but Tom "Bloodgate" Williams has announced his retirement.

Buer

sydthebeat wrote: »

Big Dev leinster player of the month for april

not really the recognition you want when your teams 0 for 3 in the month......

Deserved. While Leinster have been playing like a bag of sh*te, he has been very consistent. Didn't stand out for anything spectacular at times but gets through a huge amount of work for us in defence, in mauls, at restarts etc.

17 tackles made against Treviso, for example, over twice that of his flankers and three times that of his lock partner.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

17 tackles made against Treviso, for example, over twice that of his flankers and three times that of his lock partner.

What!? That's insane. He really does get through a tonne of work though. And rarely gets the plaudits for it.

total former

sydthebeat wrote: »

Big Dev leinster player of the month for april

not really the recognition you want when your teams 0 for 3 in the month......

It's better to be playing well in a team that's playing badly, than playing badly in a team that's playing badly.