Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

total former

total former wrote: »

Can you expand on the bolded bit?

Well I know through a family member and a friend that the camp hasn't been great for most of this year with a lot of frustration around performances and players openly criticising other players.

I also know that there has been several attempts by senior players to instil greater professionalism on the wider squad that has ultimately led to acrimony.

Finally if you look at the teams performances, body language on the pitch and general ability to close out games or hold onto leads it's pretty apparent that not everyone is on the same page. At times it looks like watching a team of Tony Buckleys at their least interested.

The leadership deficit is probably worse than people are generally aware, but to me a good coach is one that can deal with player motivation issues as well as direction and strategy.

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

How do you know this? I thought we discussed at length the idea that MOC suggested that the team plays heads up rugby and adapts to the conditions without steering. If that's the case, then it's almost exclusively the fault of the players for making the decisions above. We can't hang MOC for both sides of the coin here.

I don't think I am tbh. For me the issue is that if (and it's still an if because we don't really know) we are playing this "heads up" game then it isn't working and at some point there needs to be an acknowledgement of that. I think we need more structure in how we play and it is this that I'm "hanging" MOC on and nothing else. I think we end up shovelling ball because we lack that structure.

Deleted User wrote: »

It was a bad pass. It was on but badly executed. If he puts T'eo through the gap there, nobody ever remembers the Zebre game. There's confirmation bias afoot here.

Yeah maybe. The itch to get the ball to the wide channels as fast as possible (and almost without thought for anything else) is to me what box kicks are to thomond. Maybe I should have been more specific though. Our execution of the loopy skip pass has been found wanting a bit. Against Zebre the ball was flung out to Luke on the wing who was facing Dion Berryman, who we're pretty sure had at least one broken rib. It was a prime attacking opportunity as Luke was on form and the defender in front of him was struggling to even walk. But the pass was too deep and Luke had to come to a complete stop to take the ball which allowed Berryman to make a big hit on Luke. The loopy skip pass is generally a risky one anyway because it hangs in the air a bit and really needs to be delivered with accuracy, one thing we've desperately struggled with all season. That's made even worse by the fact that Mads does the double pump movement before giving one sending out a clear message of his intent before releasing the ball. To me that combination of factors should be enough to have the coaches tell Mads to knock the skip passes on the head for a little bit.

Deleted User wrote: »

But we have zero evidence that MOC isn't doing all of this. None. And we can't get any, unless you want to go to all the training sessions. So we have to rely on bits of info from people involved (players) and try to disentangle MOC's impact from the results, a pretty difficult task no? I'm not certain we can simply put this on him. Certainly not without a lot more evidence.

Agreed, which is why I said I'm simply surmising based on limited information. But this isn't a court of law, it's a discussion forum. I we limited our discussions here to things we could clearly prove with evidence it'd be fairly quiet.

Deleted User wrote: »

Devil's advocate suggests this
"Surely a professional rugby player doesn't need to be told to fix a man before passing"?

Also agreed. But if they aren't doing it (which is their fault) then the coaches need to rectify that. If the coaches don't then whatever they are doing isn't working. Or the coaches aren't doing anything to rectify it. Again, individual issues are the responsibility of the individual. Persistent and endemic issues are the responsibility of the coaches.

Buer

Leinster thread is the new BT thread!

molloyjh

Again, deleting the bits I agree with or am fine with leaving as are!

molloyjh wrote: »

. Again, individual issues are the responsibility of the individual. Persistent and endemic issues are the responsibility of the coaches.

Almost agree. However I'm not sure what anyone else is seeing as a persistent and endemic issue?

If the fact that neither of our out half options are particularly great at turning another side onto their heels has meant that we have had to play a certain way, that is an issue that is persistent, but that no coach can change.

Do we have any examples of persistent and endemic issues that aren't beyond the coaches control from Leinster this season?

I'm happy to admit that I don't think MOC is Joe, but I think the 'buck stops here' argument doesn't hold enough water imo.

fitz

Deleted User wrote: »

So which is it?

Is he telling players to not fix defenders, telling players to throw loopy passes, telling players to play a kicking game?

Or is he saying they should be decision makers and choose the appropriate option themselves?

He can't be doing both. He's getting flak for both though.

I've no problem with him giving the players the freedom to be decision makers.
And I'm not saying that problems should call for an immediate reversal of that approach. But when there's a long running trend of something not working, you have to try something else. Molloyh is doing a good job of summing up the problems, I don't see what's unclear about it. He's not getting flak for his approach...he's getting flak for sticking with his approach despite it not working.

fitz

Btw, is anyone else disturbed by IBF and Emmet seeming to be on the same page?

Buer

fitz wrote: »

Btw, is anyone else disturbed by IBF and Emmet seeming to be on the same page?

Those English lads stick together.

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

Do we have any examples of persistent and endemic issues that aren't beyond the coaches control from Leinster this season?

I think there can be more done to improve our back line. The shovelling, crabbing and not fixing are to me persistent and endemic. I believe that by forcing more structure on the back line that could be improved. Will it makes us the force we were? No way. Will it make us less one dimensional? Most likely.

I also don't believe there isn't more could be done with our forwards around things like protecting our ball and getting quicker ball for the backs etc. It's an area we've been weak enough on with players we've seen do better. That's on Leo, but then we shouldn't be surprised with it being his first year as a coach.

While our kicking game is poor we don't seem to kick into the stands too often. Sometimes when under the cosh a bit we should be looking to get the ball off the field and not just handing it straight back to their back three. Now part of this is obviously the players, but the coaches should be drilling home the message of "if under pressure, put it in the stands". Instead of immediately putting ourselves under pressure we could be taking a breather and resetting ourselves. Maybe they are doing it but the players just panic on-field, but I'm not convinced that is the case. If it is then we really are in a right hole because this is basic enough stuff IMO.

.ak

Buer wrote: »

Those English lads stick together.

Cold blooded.

molloyjh

fitz wrote: »

Btw, is anyone else disturbed by IBF and Emmet seeming to be on the same page?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0GFRcFm-aY

OldRio

Deleted User wrote: »

Again, deleting the bits I agree with or am fine with leaving as are!


Almost agree. However I'm not sure what anyone else is seeing as a persistent and endemic issue?

If the fact that neither of our out half options are particularly great at turning another side onto their heels has meant that we have had to play a certain way, that is an issue that is persistent, but that no coach can change.

Do we have any examples of persistent and endemic issues that aren't beyond the coaches control from Leinster this season?

I'm happy to admit that I don't think MOC is Joe, but I think the 'buck stops here' argument doesn't hold enough water imo.

As a leader and manager it is your duty to realise that 'the buck stops here'
If the strategy as laid out by the manager fails he should fix it. This can be done many ways but the responsibility for this lies with the manager.

total former

Deleted User wrote: »

Well I know through a family member and a friend that the camp hasn't been great for most of this year with a lot of frustration around performances and players openly criticising other players.

I also know that there has been several attempts by senior players to instil greater professionalism on the wider squad that has ultimately led to acrimony.

Finally if you look at the teams performances, body language on the pitch and general ability to close out games or hold onto leads it's pretty apparent that not everyone is on the same page. At times it looks like watching a team of Tony Buckleys at their least interested.

The leadership deficit is probably worse than people are generally aware, but to me a good coach is one that can deal with player motivation issues as well as direction and strategy.

Jennings' interview in the Sunday Times would certainly bear out the bolded bit. It's a serious issue but if players aren't committed or willing to put the effort in, even when called on it by coaches or senior players, then they are the problem, not the coach.

Yes, I know the buck stops with the coach, etc, but if you have younger guys reacting badly to the senior players asking them to pull their socks up, then those players need to be shown the door, end of.
Except MOC doesn't have full control over who he signs or doesn't sign, so his powers to actually take decisive action are limited. Sure, he can ditch the likes of Marshall and Coghlan-Murray (NB: not saying they are problem players, just examples), but if it's someone who figures in Joe's plans, then we're stuck with him.

Interesting point re: body language and it's something I definitely thought watching Sean O'Brien against Ulster recently. He played sh*t, got himself binned and just generally looked like he didn't care one way or the other. Now that's a world-class player who should be the fulcrum of our attack; maybe he just had a bad night but something was up.

The lack of leadership within the squad is something that has been brewing for a while; the fairly rapid loss of Nacewa and Sexton then BOD and Cullen and now Jennings - having those five guys in the team at once was a phenomenal stroke of luck/planning and the failure to replace them with players of equal leadership ability is not MOC's fault. Maybe he could/should be doing more to lay out a specific game plan for each and every player, maybe this group of players just aren't capable of making these judgements for themselves, I don't know.

Maybe he's just not the right man for this period. Maybe we do need a Cheika-type figure to treat professional rugby players like the under-14 B team and make sure they turn up on time, clean their boots and aren't instagramming during training. But I think MOC deserves another season to try to put his own stamp on the team, to show us what he is (or is not) capable of without the perfect storm of setbacks we've had this season.

aimee1

total former wrote: »

But I think MOC deserves another season to try to put his own stamp on the team, to show us what he is (or is not) capable of without the perfect storm of setbacks we've had this season.

MoC has already been talking about the disruption that the world cup is going to cause in his post treviso interview on tg4. So the excuses are already being trotted out. Its very hard to take him seriously when the one of his strongest xv's who have had 6 weeks together uninterrupted produced that performance last friday

total former

total former wrote: »

Maybe he's just not the right man for this period. Maybe we do need a Cheika-type figure to treat professional rugby players like the under-14 B team and make sure they turn up on time, clean their boots and aren't instagramming during training.

I actually think this is 100% correct and gets to the core of the teams problems.

Schmidt and Cheika are two highly demanding and thorough coaches and whilst they are both very different, I think the way they managed personalities is probably where they drift closest.

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

Maybe he's just not the right man for this period. Maybe we do need a Cheika-type figure to treat professional rugby players like the under-14 B team and make sure they turn up on time, clean their boots and aren't instagramming during training. But I think MOC deserves another season to try to put his own stamp on the team, to show us what he is (or is not) capable of without the perfect storm of setbacks we've had this season.

The problem here is that there is another perfect storm of set-backs for next season. Players missing for half the season, which is going to be a far bigger issue than it was this season. At least squad players could pop back to Leinster for a few days for games (Healy, Mads & Fitz spring to mind immediately). Not even that will happen during the RWC. Never mind that we will be missing Gopperth so will be playing at least 1 inexperienced half-back for large parts of the season (and most of the league).

Sexton will be in a totally different set-up than before with different players. He won't even get a Leinster pre-season before he's playing in the Champions Cup. It's going to be a lot to ask to have him hit the ground running and have the impact we need him to have that quickly. With a much tougher pool in Europe as well we're going to have a genuinely hard time there.

I don't know if the issues lie with the younger players. If they do is that an indictment of the Academy itself and/or Girv and co's coaching of the A team? If so how have they managed to be so successful themselves in the last few years? Could it be because they haven't had to work as hard for said success?

Shaggy spoke earlier in the season about the possibility of a rift forming between first and second choice because players weren't being empowered. Is this a contributing factor to this kind of thing? Why bother being professional when you're only there to fill in and no matter how you play you don't believe you'll get ahead of the first teamers? Are we looking at some sort of chicken and egg scenario here?

total former

Deleted User wrote: »

I actually think this is 100% correct and gets to the core of the teams problems.

Schmidt and Cheika are two highly demanding and thorough coaches and whilst they are both very different, I think the way they managed personalities is probably where they drift closest.

But again - why is this necessary? These are pro rugby players who shouldn't need to be treated like schoolkids.

Does Gregor Townsend strike you as the sort of coach who lines his players up and gives them an hour-long bollocking at every training session? Neil Doak? What is it in the Leinster camp that is causing these issues?

Now, Matt O'Connor came from Leicester where Richard Cockerill is (I'd imagine) very much that style of character on the training ground, so maybe O'Connor is used to having a pitbull to do his snarling for him, and maybe Gibbes filled that role last year, hence the drop-off this season compared to last, but again, is this a deficit in the coach or the players? Or is that the coaching team as a whole doesn't have the right balance?

These are genuine questions, I think the Jennings interview was fascinating in shedding light on what might be happening.

total former

total former wrote: »

But again - why is this necessary? These are pro rugby players who shouldn't need to be treated like schoolkids.

Does Gregor Townsend strike you as the sort of coach who lines his players up and gives them an hour-long bollocking at every training session? Neil Doak? What is it in the Leinster camp that is causing these issues?

Now, Matt O'Connor came from Leicester where Richard Cockerill is (I'd imagine) very much that style of character on the training ground, so maybe O'Connor is used to having a pitbull to do his snarling for him, and maybe Gibbes filled that role last year, hence the drop-off this season compared to last, but again, is this a deficit in the coach or the players? Or is that the coaching team as a whole doesn't have the right balance?

These are genuine questions, I think the Jennings interview was fascinating in shedding light on what might be happening.

I've worked with elite athletes and competed at world level and you would be amazed at times how badly you need someone to just boot you up the hole and get you going again. Sometimes it's a talking too, other times you literally need someone sitting on you for a month until you sort your head out.

A good mental state and positive confident outlook can make an enormous difference in the output of professional athletes and when your head is down you can find yourself working seemingly hard and getting absolutely no where.

It's different from person to person and sport to sport, but the result is the same and it's written all over Leinster at the moment.

sydthebeat

Deleted User wrote: »

I've worked with elite athletes and competed at world level and you would be amazed at times how badly you need someone to just boot you up the hole and get you going again. Sometimes it's a talking too, other times you literally need someone sitting on you for a month until you sort your head out.

A good mental state and positive confident outlook can make an enormous difference in the output of professional athletes and when your head is down you can find yourself working seemingly hard and getting absolutely no where.

It's different from person to person and sport to sport, but the result is the same and it's written all over Leinster at the moment.

good job we've Isa coming back then

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

good job we've Isa coming back then

It's probably the only reason that Isa coming back makes any kind of sense.

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

But again - why is this necessary? These are pro rugby players who shouldn't need to be treated like schoolkids.

Does Gregor Townsend strike you as the sort of coach who lines his players up and gives them an hour-long bollocking at every training session? Neil Doak? What is it in the Leinster camp that is causing these issues?

Now, Matt O'Connor came from Leicester where Richard Cockerill is (I'd imagine) very much that style of character on the training ground, so maybe O'Connor is used to having a pitbull to do his snarling for him, and maybe Gibbes filled that role last year, hence the drop-off this season compared to last, but again, is this a deficit in the coach or the players? Or is that the coaching team as a whole doesn't have the right balance?

These are genuine questions, I think the Jennings interview was fascinating in shedding light on what might be happening.

You don't need to be the dick all the time. You just need to be able to be a dick when it matters. And I'm sure not all players require that all of the time, but in any group of 30-40 people some inevitably will sometime.

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

I've worked with elite athletes and competed at world level and you would be amazed at times how badly you need someone to just boot you up the hole and get you going again. Sometimes it's a talking too, other times you literally need someone sitting on you for a month until you sort your head out.

A good mental state and positive confident outlook can make an enormous difference in the output of professional athletes and when your head is down you can find yourself working seemingly hard and getting absolutely no where.

It's different from person to person and sport to sport, but the result is the same and it's written all over Leinster at the moment.

It's not just a sports thing either. This sort of thing applies in every walk of life.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

It's not just a sports thing either. This sort of thing applies in every walk of life.

True but the ultra competitive nature of sport amplifies this massively. I've managed staff and run a business and there are parallels but still sports professionals bring a much rarer form of intensity and self reflection that heavily complicates motivation.

That said I knew a lad and the rocky sound track sorted him out every time. Savage talent too.

total former

molloyjh wrote: »

You don't need to be the dick all the time.

Read this first line, thought you were referring to me...

molloyjh wrote: »

You just need to be able to be a dick when it matters. And I'm sure not all players require that all of the time, but in any group of 30-40 people some inevitably will sometime.

But if what Jennings has said and what Venjur has heard is true, that certain players have been pulled up on it by squad leaders and haven't responded, then they should be given the boot. We can only speculate how MOC deals with players, maybe (emphasis on maybe) he is too soft on them, but if any player, young or old, gets told by his captain that he needs to pull his socks up and doesn't, then f**k him, cut him loose.

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

Read this first line, thought you were referring to me...

Hahaha, yes that is perhaps poorly phrased!

total former wrote: »

But if what Jennings has said and what Venjur has heard is true, that certain players have been pulled up on it by squad leaders and haven't responded, then they should be given the boot. We can only speculate how MOC deals with players, maybe (emphasis on maybe) he is too soft on them, but if any player, young or old, gets told by his captain that he needs to pull his socks up and doesn't, then f**k him, cut him loose.

I don't agree with that, and again this is something that isn't purely sports related for me. I've seen too many people badly managed over the years to have a "we've told you, it's up to you now" approach. It's almost never a case of seeing someone not doing enough, giving them a bit of a kick up the arse and leaving it to them from there on out.

Most people (and maybe Venjur can confirm whether this generally applies more to sports people given their competitive natures) are honest people who will give you an honest amount of effort if given the opportunity. If there is an issue with performance then more often than not there is a deeper reason behind it. Any manager in that situation has got make an effort to understand what that issue is. Maybe they feel under appreciated, maybe they aren't being challenged enough etc. Once the issue is identified you can make a judgement. Sometimes it is best that the person move on as nothing can be done. And sometimes the specific issue(s) just needs to be addressed and managed correctly. EDIT: Which often requires work from both parties.

For example if a younger player feels he isn't getting a look in regardless of what he is doing and is getting disillusioned with the whole set-up then a softer approach is required. Having a senior player or a coach telling him to cop himself on and start working harder is only likely to breed the kind acrimony Venjur seems to be talking about.

Now obviously I'm not saying that is what is happening, just giving a hypothetical where it's not as straight forward as a kick up the arse.

total former

BTW, Nigel Owens is reffing the Edinburgh game on Saturday.

After being b*tch-slapped by the Pro12 disciplinary committee today, he'll no doubt be looking to reassert himself and will be dishing out cards left right and centre.

total former

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/news/13576.php#.VVNeXvlVhHw

Fanning ruled out of Edinburgh, D'Arcy unlikely to travel (and so may have played his last game in blue).

With McFadden and Fitzgerald out, we're going to be struggling a bit.

Bib theory would say that Madigan will start at 10, not sure if that will come to pass though (but it should).

So maybe?
McGrath Strauss Ross
Toner McCarthy
Jordi Heaslip SOB
Boss Madigan
DK Reid Te'o Kirchner
RK

Dundon Bent Furlong Denton Conan Reddan Gopperth [AN Other]

Candidates for AN Other? Mick McGrath, Cian Kelleher?

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/news/13576.php#.VVNeXvlVhHw

Fanning ruled out of Edinburgh, D'Arcy unlikely to travel (and so may have played his last game in blue).

With McFadden and Fitzgerald out, we're going to be struggling a bit.

Bib theory would say that Madigan will start at 10, not sure if that will come to pass though (but it should).

So maybe?
McGrath Strauss Ross
Toner McCarthy
Jordi Heaslip SOB
Boss Madigan
DK Reid Te'o Kirchner
RK

Dundon Bent Furlong Denton Conan Reddan Gopperth [AN Other]

Candidates for AN Other? Mick McGrath, Cian Kelleher?

No idea re the 23 shirt. McGrath is the only other option that's been involved in the squad all season so he'd have to be the safe bet if we're trying to predict it. Although he doesn't provide any centre cover so maybe Ringrose will get it? We've more than enough FB cover there so I can't see Kelleher being selected.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

Hahaha, yes that is perhaps poorly phrased!



I don't agree with that, and again this is something that isn't purely sports related for me. I've seen too many people badly managed over the years to have a "we've told you, it's up to you now" approach. It's almost never a case of seeing someone not doing enough, giving them a bit of a kick up the arse and leaving it to them from there on out.

Most people (and maybe Venjur can confirm whether this generally applies more to sports people given their competitive natures) are honest people who will give you an honest amount of effort if given the opportunity. If there is an issue with performance then more often than not there is a deeper reason behind it. Any manager in that situation has got make an effort to understand what that issue is. Maybe they feel under appreciated, maybe they aren't being challenged enough etc. Once the issue is identified you can make a judgement. Sometimes it is best that the person move on as nothing can be done. And sometimes the specific issue(s) just needs to be addressed and managed correctly. EDIT: Which often requires work from both parties.

For example if a younger player feels he isn't getting a look in regardless of what he is doing and is getting disillusioned with the whole set-up then a softer approach is required. Having a senior player or a coach telling him to cop himself on and start working harder is only likely to breed the kind acrimony Venjur seems to be talking about.

Now obviously I'm not saying that is what is happening, just giving a hypothetical where it's not as straight forward as a kick up the arse.

Two answers just to separate them out:

First
Confidence / form / performance can dip for a lot of reasons. You get anxious about things like if you will make a team sheet, and no coach can guarantee you that. You feel more tired than you should because your last gym work out was crap. You have an argument with another person and feel awkward and wound up going to training for a few weeks. The end result is that your performance in matches and training can fall off a cliff.

This happens to people in sport, it can be easily shook off by one good performance and sometimes a bit of reflection. The reason I worry about this with Leinster is that it seems to be effecting a lot of players for a lot of this season.

Fixing problems in work are usually a lot easier as you can break down activity and go about it, or look at what has worked before and go about that. Fixing your form is a lot harder as you worry about everything from how your legs feel to what your heart rate was during your last VO2 test etc. or the colour of your last sh1te. It's a lot more personal and visceral than work related problems and stress.

Second
From what I'm told, and some of this is my interpretation, but it appears that squad empowerment and decision making is not just confined to the pitch but gives the playing group more freedom than they had previously. This has meant that they are managing themselves as a group more, and this is what is causing problems as not everyone wants to take orders from a team mate.

Leo becoming a coach buys into this concept.

It's either too many chief's or maybe the wrong chiefs.

leakyboots

irishbucsfan wrote: »

But that's exactly what we need from him and he's excellent at it. He does offer an attacking threat, but we don't need him to be a threat, we need him to win territory when needed, or alternatively set up first phase as efficiently as possible. He's the best in the world at both of those at the moment. He is a world class player, even if he's not going to excite many.

Sorry now but - 'we don't need him to be a threat' - you can't be serious? You don't need your fullback to be an absolute menace to opposition when kicked to?

'We need him to win territory when needed' - yes, every fullback is expected to do that - and Kearney does that well with his boot, imperious in the air too. I don't think anyone denies that.

'Or alternatively set up first phase as efficiently as possible' - this is a requirement of every player on the pitch, not just the fullback and should be taken as a given. I wouldn't say he's 'the best in the world' at that.

In fact, I would say he can't counter attack and look for space and try and break/offload. His defensive woes are well documented (although to be fair his positioning on opposition kicks is superb, which you'd expect from a player of his experience).

Compare the other Six Nations full backs to him and what they do/offer and I think you have your answer. Compare Jared Payne's performances when he was at fullback for Ulster. Even Felix Jones, who is more limited than Kearney all-round, offers more in attack (not that I think he's the answer either at 15).

I just think Kearney's form has dipped for quite a while now

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

Two answers just to separate them out:

First
Confidence / form / performance can dip for a lot of reasons. You get anxious about things like if you will make a team sheet, and no coach can guarantee you that. You feel more tired than you should because your last gym work out was crap. You have an argument with another person and feel awkward and wound up going to training for a few weeks. The end result is that your performance in matches and training can fall off a cliff.

This happens to people in sport, it can be easily shook off by one good performance and sometimes a bit of reflection. The reason I worry about this with Leinster is that it seems to be effecting a lot of players for a lot of this season.

Fixing problems in work are usually a lot easier as you can break down activity and go about it, or look at what has worked before and go about that. Fixing your form is a lot harder as you worry about everything from how your legs feel to what your heart rate was during your last VO2 test etc. or the colour of your last sh1te. It's a lot more personal and visceral than work related problems and stress.

Second
From what I'm told, and some of this is my interpretation, but it appears that squad empowerment and decision making is not just confined to the pitch but gives the playing group more freedom than they had previously. This has meant that they are managing themselves as a group more, and this is what is causing problems as not everyone wants to take orders from a team mate.

Leo becoming a coach buys into this concept.

It's either too many chief's or maybe the wrong chiefs.

The second bit is interesting. Who decides who is "allowed" to order who about or speak to someone in a particular way and how does that dynamic work in practice I wonder? Many of these guys are in their 20s, with some of the Academy lads younger again. And not everyone is suited to fulfilling roles like that so as you said there could really be a case of too many chiefs and some of those being the wrong ones. There would have to be some real controls over that sort of behaviour otherwise things could get messy fast.