Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

ionadnapokot

total former wrote: »

Bib theory would say that Madigan will start at 10,

:eek:

ionadnapokot

love it:)

stephen_n

total former wrote: »

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/news/13576.php#.VVNeXvlVhHw

Fanning ruled out of Edinburgh, D'Arcy unlikely to travel (and so may have played his last game in blue).

With McFadden and Fitzgerald out, we're going to be struggling a bit.

Bib theory would say that Madigan will start at 10, not sure if that will come to pass though (but it should).

So maybe?
McGrath Strauss Ross
Toner McCarthy
Jordi Heaslip SOB
Boss Madigan
DK Reid Te'o Kirchner
RK

Dundon Bent Furlong Denton Conan Reddan Gopperth [AN Other]

Candidates for AN Other? Mick McGrath, Cian Kelleher?

Is Reid fit? would be a strange decision to drop Goperth at this stage.

Deleted User wrote: »

Two answers just to separate them out:

First

Second
From what I'm told, and some of this is my interpretation, but it appears that squad empowerment and decision making is not just confined to the pitch but gives the playing group more freedom than they had previously. This has meant that they are managing themselves as a group more, and this is what is causing problems as not everyone wants to take orders from a team mate.

Leo becoming a coach buys into this concept.

It's either too many chief's or maybe the wrong chiefs.

That could be considered bad timing if true, considering how many of the main leaders the squad has lost over the last few seasons the hierarchy is very unclear as to where the leadership would be coming from especially in international windows.

The Pheasant2

Took a piss beside Ben Marshall just there in the UCD exams...he's a big fella (...if ye know what I mean) :P

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

The second bit is interesting. Who decides who is "allowed" to order who about or speak to someone in a particular way and how does that dynamic work in practice I wonder? Many of these guys are in their 20s, with some of the Academy lads younger again. And not everyone is suited to fulfilling roles like that so as you said there could really be a case of too many chiefs and some of those being the wrong ones. There would have to be some real controls over that sort of behaviour otherwise things could get messy fast.

I'd imagine it's a lot like the way it's done in Leicester, IE by whoever throws the best punch.

total former

stephen_n wrote: »

Is Reid fit? would be a strange decision to drop Gopperth at this stage.

How dare you question bib theory?

Well it's a nothing game* really, might as well start looking to next season. Not much to be gained from playing Gopperth this weekend.

(*Yes I know that 5th place is still in the balance)

stephen_n

total former wrote: »

How dare you question bib theory?

Well it's a nothing game* really, might as well start looking to next season. Not much to be gained from playing Gopperth this weekend.

(*Yes I know that 5th place is still in the balance)

If Reid's fit I suppose it makes sense, just moving Madigan out of 12 when D'Arcy can't travel would be strange, be glad to see Reid back though.

Snegg

Have heard Cian Kelleher will be in squad for Edinburgh clash, Gary Ringrose expected to be reserve, he may even have a bigger involvement.

CatFromHue

MOC's comments after the game last week sorta implied he would be thinking of next season with the team for Edinburgh.

thomond2006

They might get a better showing out of the young players than some of the incumbents.

#1 Fanning

total former

Hero.

.ak

leakyboots wrote: »

Sorry now but - 'we don't need him to be a threat' - you can't be serious? You don't need your fullback to be an absolute menace to opposition when kicked to?

Ofcourse you don't. Just like you don't need your props to be a threat in the loose. A fullback's primary role is not to counter attack. Just some are good at it because they thrive with space. The primary role is to secure the territory and space left behind.

'We need him to win territory when needed' - yes, every fullback is expected to do that - and Kearney does that well with his boot, imperious in the air too. I don't think anyone denies that.

'Or alternatively set up first phase as efficiently as possible' - this is a requirement of every player on the pitch, not just the fullback and should be taken as a given. I wouldn't say he's 'the best in the world' at that.

Yes but what you're missing is a fullback is far more vulnerable to turn overs. You're isolated, your back 3 partners are often your only support, and they have to cover A LOT of ground to get to you, so by the time they get to you they won't be as effective clearing out.

Kearney is probably one of the best fullbacks in the world at retaining possession and territory, and when you consider that most teams kick to GET possession back OR territory it makes him an extremely effective fullback and nullifies most team's kicking game.

In fact, I would say he can't counter attack and look for space and try and break/offload. His defensive woes are well documented (although to be fair his positioning on opposition kicks is superb, which you'd expect from a player of his experience).

Compare the other Six Nations full backs to him and what they do/offer and I think you have your answer. Compare Jared Payne's performances when he was at fullback for Ulster. Even Felix Jones, who is more limited than Kearney all-round, offers more in attack (not that I think he's the answer either at 15).

I just think Kearney's form has dipped for quite a while now

In my opinion that's completely untrue, if anything he's been more solid than ever for Ireland. His game has changed, but it's been for the better for him and his team mates.

The simple truth is it's just not that pretty/sexy/whatever, and people think it's somehow a dip in form.

With so many other options available, if it was a dip in form, he would be pushed out of both sides.

thomond2006

Confirmed that Sean MacCarthy is returning to Jersey after a one year tackle bag sabbatical / holiday in Ireland.

Tox56

.ak wrote: »

Ofcourse you don't. Just like you don't need your props to be a threat in the loose. A fullback's primary role is not to counter attack. Just some are good at it because they thrive with space. The primary role is to secure the territory and space left behind.



Yes but what you're missing is a fullback is far more vulnerable to turn overs. You're isolated, your back 3 partners are often your only support, and they have to cover A LOT of ground to get to you, so by the time they get to you they won't be as effective clearing out.

Kearney is probably one of the best fullbacks in the world at retaining possession and territory, and when you consider that most teams kick to GET possession back OR territory it makes him an extremely effective fullback and nullifies most team's kicking game.



In my opinion that's completely untrue, if anything he's been more solid than ever for Ireland. His game has changed, but it's been for the better for him and his team mates.

The simple truth is it's just not that pretty/sexy/whatever, and people think it's somehow a dip in form.

With so many other options available, if it was a dip in form, he would be pushed out of both sides.

The value in Kearney won't be seen till he isn't there

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

#1 Fanning

Because he's the Hero Leinster deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll bench him, because he can take it, because he's not a hero, he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector, a ginger winger.

total former

thomond2006 wrote: »

Confirmed that Sean MacCarthy is returning to Jersey after a one year tackle bag sabbatical / holiday in Ireland.

I think when the "worst signing" conversation comes around next, he has to figure prominently. Whatever you want to say about the likes of Harry Vermaas, Ben Prescott, Juan Gomez or any number of duff front-rowers who've come through the door, they did at least appear for the first team at some point. All Sean managed was to maintain an exquisite beard for the duration.

thomond2006

total former wrote: »

I think when the "worst signing" conversation comes around next, he has to figure prominently. Whatever you want to say about the likes of Harry Vermaas, Ben Prescott, Juan Gomez or any number of duff front-rowers who've come through the door, they did at least appear for the first team at some point. All Sean managed was to maintain an exquisite beard for the duration.

Not appearing for the first team is one thing, barely appearing for the second team is another!

From the man himself:

Sean MacCarthy wrote:

"I really enjoyed my time in Jersey, both on and off the field - I made some great friends and look back on that period of my life very fondly," he said. "I'm very excited to be rejoining the club after their most successful season in the Championship and look forward to contributing to what I hope will be an even better one next year.

"My year in Ireland has been very different to what I've been used to - there's huge competition for every position in the Leinster squad and game-time has been hard to earn. However, I have definitely learned from the hugely-experienced players around me and hope to bring some of that experience back with me to Jersey."

http://www.jrfc.je/news/trio-become-latest-201516-signings.aspx

Buer

total former wrote: »

I think when the "worst signing" conversation comes around next, he has to figure prominently. Whatever you want to say about the likes of Harry Vermaas, Ben Prescott, Juan Gomez or any number of duff front-rowers who've come through the door, they did at least appear for the first team at some point. All Sean managed was to maintain an exquisite beard for the duration.

But he wasn't really expected to be anything much more than a squad member at best. Prescott was similar, signed from The Championship and had never made more than a few handful for Glasgow in 4 years.

The likes of Vermass and Gomez are still well ahead of him considering they arrived with an actual profile and a little bit of expectation. Vermass was a 22 year old who could play across the front row and had appeared in the Currie Cup in South Africa. Now playing 3rd level rugby in France. We were sold a pup there and someone really failed in their research.

Gomez was a 22 year old prop who was signed on a short term deal by Stade Francais before ourselves and had already been capped by Argentina. He actually made a decent fist of a career with Leeds in the AP.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

But he wasn't really expected to be anything much more than a squad member at best.

Yeah but he didn't even get that far. He's a LH prop by trade and was being moved into hooker at AIL level. He got a couple of appearances off the bench for the As in the B&I Cup (at hooker) and what I saw of him there he was a disaster at that level.

I'm sure he's a good bloke and an honest player, but he wasn't up to it and I still don't understand why on earth he was signed. We didn't need a LH. We had Healy and McGrath with Bent and Byrne as back-ups. On the TH side we had Ross and Moore with only Furlong as back-up. The need was always on the TH side. So bringing in a sub-standard LH never made sense.

dub_skav

Tox56 wrote: »

The value in Kearney won't be seen till he isn't there

Bit like Girv (except he was even more reliable).
I remember after Girv retired, realising for the first time in years how dangerous a bouncing ball can be.

total former

Buer wrote: »

But he wasn't really expected to be anything much more than a squad member at best. Prescott was similar, signed from The Championship and had never made more than a few handful for Glasgow in 4 years.

The likes of Vermass and Gomez are still well ahead of him considering they arrived with an actual profile and a little bit of expectation. Vermass was a 22 year old who could play across the front row and had appeared in the Currie Cup in South Africa. Now playing 3rd level rugby in France. We were sold a pup there and someone really failed in their research.

Gomez was a 22 year old prop who was signed on a short term deal by Stade Francais before ourselves and had already been capped by Argentina. He actually made a decent fist of a career with Leeds in the AP.

Ah, he was never going to be rivaling Healy and McGrath, or even Bent, I know that, but he never even got near the fringes; he was left for dust by Ed Byrne and Peter Dooley, we had to sign Maks van Dyk and Jamie Hagan midway through the season rather than risk playing McCarthy, and he ended up playing AIL for Mary's at hooker. Hardly a roaring success by any measure.

thomond2006

Leinster have an article on their site announcing McCarthy leaving and wishing him the best. I suppose if it was an attitude / non-rugby issue then they wouldn't have put out that article.

shuffol

total former wrote: »

I think when the "worst signing" conversation comes around next, he has to figure prominently. Whatever you want to say about the likes of Harry Vermaas, Ben Prescott, Juan Gomez or any number of duff front-rowers who've come through the door, they did at least appear for the first team at some point. All Sean managed was to maintain an exquisite beard for the duration.

Totally forgot about him, we'd a real propping crisis at that time, who was the other guy we signed around that time with a similar profile, think he might've been from the AIL.

total former

shuffol wrote: »

Totally forgot about him, we'd a real propping crisis at that time, who was the other guy we signed around that time with a similar profile, think he might've been from the AIL.

Simon Shawe? He was actually a decent enough addition IIRC.

dregin

Deleted User wrote: »

#1 Fanning

They need to change the presidential age amendment in the referendum to just read "Applicant must be red haired and born on July 16th 1986"

padser

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What makes you think number 2 is more likely?

Who else is to 'blame' for mistakes other than those that make them?

Well to be honest, I think number 1 is highly unlikely (as it would mean systematic underperformance by talented individuals is not down to bad management of said individuals) and thus by process of elimination I'm left with 2 being more likely.

I buy the point though that there is a halfway house between the two which might be the most likely.

I really don't want to get into the argument again about whether bad coaching can lead to players making mistakes. I believe it can, some others believe it can't.

padser

dub_skav wrote: »

Bit like Girv (except he was even more reliable).
I remember after Girv retired, realising for the first time in years how dangerous a bouncing ball can be.

Yeah, I often think Kearney gets a shockingly hard time. The guy is close to world class, but probably not quite world class. For some reason, perhaps because he is almost there, people compare him with the best players in world....find he is not quite as good as them...and then call him useless

:-)

shuffol

total former wrote: »

Simon Shawe? He was actually a decent enough addition IIRC.

That's it, I remember there was one who saw a bit of gametime and did at least as well as could be expected of him.

The Parish King

Snegg wrote: »

Have heard Cian Kelleher will be in squad for Edinburgh clash, Gary Ringrose expected to be reserve, he may even have a bigger involvement.

There's an article on the 42 with quotes from Richie Murphy saying that Kelleher, Ringrose and Molony might be involved, and the author also speculates that Ross Byrne could be involved too