HKC Quantum 70 vs GSD i70: questions please

robnet77

hi,
I would need to get a wirelss alarm installed and recently got three quotes, now I would have a few questions about HKC Quantum 70 vs GSD i70 solutions please.

1) do both apps provide near immediate (<90 seconds) notifications in case of alarm activated, without the need to log into the app continuously to check the system status?

2) do both panels send near immediate (<90 seconds) notifications in case they get tampered with?

3) are intertia and PIR sensors comparable in terms of technlogy and battery life?

4) do they offer a similar grade of protection? (e.g. are they both rated Grade 2?)

KoolKid

1) Yes, both will give you push notifications.
2) Yes both will send tampers. The i70 also now has smash & grab alerts & polling.
eg. If the front door is opened or an alarm event occurs & the server connection with the panel is lost you will get an alert.
Even without any alarm events you will also get a notification if server connection is lost for a set period of time.
3) Yes. Battery life should average 3 years. HKC did have issues with earlier devices & batteries but I think that's sorted now.
4)Both are grad 2 panels. However the installation will be only grade one unless its monitored.

The other main difference is all the above is free on GSD systems and the apps are free to download . With HKC you have to pay for each app & you have to sign up to an annual subscription. At the moment that subscription is €60 a year.

Evolution1

KoolKid wrote: »

1) Yes, both will give you push notifications.
2) Yes both will send tampers. The i70 also now has smash & grab alerts & polling.
eg. If the front door is opened or an alarm event occurs & the server connection with the panel is lost you will get an alert.
Even without any alarm events you will also get a notification if server connection is lost for a set period of time.
3) Yes. Battery life should average 3 years. HKC did have issues with earlier devices & batteries but I think that's sorted now.
4)Both are grad 2 panels. However the installation will be only grade one unless its monitored.

The other main difference is all the above is free on GSD systems and the apps are free to download . With HKC you have to pay for each app & you have to sign up to an annual subscription. At the moment that subscription is €60 a year.

You only have to pay for the app once and you can share it as much as you like.

Evolution1

HKCs wireless gear has been out longer and is used by more installers. GSD is Good but its not out as long.

KoolKid

Evolution1 wrote: »

You only have to pay for the app once and you can share it as much as you like.

Do you have any link to where that is available.?
I have come across customers who have had to pay for multiple apps.Is there some way they can claim discounts?
Do you rate the amount of time wireless gear has been out as relevant?

Sequence 365

Hkc wireless equipment is only around a few years and Yes they did have some serious issues with there own brand of batteries which as far as I am aware is sorted out .
Any Manafactuer can have issues no matter what the product .
People don't seem to be giving GSD much of a chance .
In my opinion I think they think way ahead of a lot of Manafactuer
They were the 1st ones to bring out Smash & Grab Notifications
They are as far as I'm aware the only ones that have a live feed wireless or wired camera on there app
I don't support any 1 particular but they are Irish Owned & Irish Made and not just packaged here like some.
I for one always try & support Irish Jobs firstly
Everybody starts somewhere

altor

robnet77 wrote: »

hi,
I would need to get a wirelss alarm installed and recently got three quotes, now I would have a few questions about HKC Quantum 70 vs GSD i70 solutions please.

1) do both apps provide near immediate (<90 seconds) notifications in case of alarm activated, without the need to log into the app continuously to check the system status?

2) do both panels send near immediate (<90 seconds) notifications in case they get tampered with?

3) are intertia and PIR sensors comparable in terms of technlogy and battery life?

4) do they offer a similar grade of protection? (e.g. are they both rated Grade 2?)

Both Apps will give notifications of alarm activation's as they happen be that from an alarm activation to a tamper event.

Devices off these systems are tied into each other, so the HKC RF sensors will not work on the GSD and vise versa. Global wired devices will work with either system.

Both systems are graded accordingly.

The wire free devices on HKC have being out since 2010.

With the Subscription payable for the annual subscription to HKC you can have two paths to your system, wifi and Gprs.

Gprs on any other system needs a sim to be provided which is not free.

robnet77

thanks for the replies, I had the impression that the HKC app would send notifications every 15 minutes, rather than continuously?

Also, the app from GSD is free but it requires the installation of a wifi/LAN card that costs around 200€? I reckon the HKC app only charges the monthly fee of 5/7€?

thanks!

p.s. I really need to know if I will get notifications within a minute or two from the moment of alarm activation, as anything slower than that would defeat the purpose of having inertia sensors to cover the house's perimeter!

altor

robnet77 wrote: »

thanks for the replies, I had the impression that the HKC app would send notifications every 15 minutes, rather than continuously?

Also, the app from GSD is free but it requires the installation of a wifi/LAN card that costs around 200€? I reckon the HKC app only charges the monthly fee of 5/7€?

thanks!

No, notification are sent out as they happen. I have tested the Quantum using the GSM-SC to see how long it would take to send the back tamper even and you get it within two seconds.

These modules are separate from the systems themselves which is were the fee comes in.

Evolution1

Sequence 365 wrote: »

Hkc wireless equipment is only around a few years and Yes they did have some serious issues with there own brand of batteries which as far as I am aware is sorted out .
Any Manafactuer can have issues no matter what the product .
People don't seem to be giving GSD much of a chance .
In my opinion I think they think way ahead of a lot of Manafactuer
They were the 1st ones to bring out Smash & Grab Notifications
They are as far as I'm aware the only ones that have a live feed wireless or wired camera on there app
I don't support any 1 particular but they are Irish Owned & Irish Made and not just packaged here like some.
I for one always try & support Irish Jobs firstly
Everybody starts somewhere

Yeah after I told them about it. There's not much info on the GSD gear.. I dont think it was HKCs own batteries that was causing that issue. GSD need to create more interest. They have non working demos in wholsalers??? Maybe some product videos of how the gear works. Have they held any open days ??

Evolution1

KoolKid wrote: »

Do you have any link to where that is available.?
I have come across customers who have had to pay for multiple apps.Is there some way they can claim discounts?
Do you rate the amount of time wireless gear has been out as relevant?

no link I'm afraid but you can check on the app and play store that it supports family sharing meaning it can be shared for free.

altor

Evolution1 wrote: »

Yeah after I told them about it. There's not much info on the GSD gear.. I dont think it was HKCs own batteries that was causing that issue. GSD need to create more interest. They have non working demos in wholsalers??? Maybe some product videos of how the gear works. Have they held any open days ??

It was a feather in there cap you giving that info away
I think the time they have set up for this is too long tho.

The issue was a re-branded battery in the early days of the wire free.

GSD where at Isec showing off the new Cameras. Great picture off the external ip camera. The biggest problem they had was when they first released the system it was not ready. From talking to a few of the lads doing the field testing they where not impressed. I have used some for the aspect it can use the Astec two wire devices with no issues.

KoolKid

Evolution1 wrote: »

You only have to pay for the app once and you can share it as much as you like.

Is not the same as

Evolution1 wrote: »

no link I'm afraid but you can check on the app and play store that it supports family sharing meaning it can be shared for free.

Sharing for free as much as you wan't could be considered piracy.

Sequence 365

My company has installed quite a lot of GSD and have to say very few issues. Yes they were at ISEC with a very good stand.All the information one would need. Risco & Pyronix were also there. I didn't see HKC . They don't seem to want to take part in a trade show that is on once every two years. It will be interesting to see if they have a stand at IFSEC this year.
Just throwing a ? Out there why can you purchase HKC products a lot cheaper in the UK can they can be bought for here. I know we are not allowed put prices up here. And they are under strict instruction not to resell into the ROI market.They only way around it is bring the product in through NI .
I'm not condemning there products by any means but I think people should ask a few questions and shop around and look at other products .

robnet77

altor wrote: »

No, notification are sent out as they happen. I have tested the Quantum using the GSM-SC to see how long it would take to send the back tamper even and you get it within two seconds.

These modules are separate from the systems themselves which is were the fee comes in.

thanks, so what is the main difference between the 5€/month and the 7€/month subscription please?

KoolKid

robnet77 wrote: »

thanks, so what is the main difference between the 5€/month and the 7€/month subscription please?

Is there a new dearer price out? I heard rumours of increasing prices and changes to packages. There was talk that it was for polling and also adding commission for installers. Perhaps Altor might have more information on this for us.
The GSD free service now includes polling and smash and grab alerts as standard.

Evolution1

robnet77 wrote: »

thanks, so what is the main difference between the 5€/month and the 7€/month subscription please?

€5 per month covers push notifications and text alerts. €7 per month covers text alerts + push + voice alerts. These prices have been out from the start..

KoolKid

Does either of them include polling?
Is there still an increase to come so?

robnet77

can anyone please comment on the below statement I received from a Security company?

======================================
Motion Detectors (PIRs):

Motion detectors are the ultimate in protection.

Installing motion detectors in each room eliminates the need for perimeter protection i.e. contact sensors or ‘shock’ sensors on windows and doors.
Motion detectors are ideal for verifying that an intruder is in your home as every time the intruder moves from room to room either you or your monitoring station will receive notification of sequential activations of each motion sensor. This removes any doubt as to whether the alarm is genuine and allows you or your monitoring station to act fast!

Some customers are skeptical of this type of protection because they feel the intruder is in their home before the alarm activates. Motion detectors, however, always activate as the intruder enters, unlike other forms of detection which often fail.

In fact, an intruder is more likely to be able to enter your home if you choose perimeter protection as a double glazed unit could easily be removed or the glass bent until it shatters, neither of which will create sufficient vibration for a shock sensor to react.

======================================
Perimeter Protection:

Contact sensors alert the user if a window or door is opened.
Shock sensors detect vibrations in the window panes and frames or glazed areas of doors, which occur if an intruder is attempting to gain access by breaking the glass.
Perimeter protection is normally backed up with motion detectors (PIRs) in the hall and landing areas.

Perimeter protection systems are less suitable if the alarm is to be monitored.
Unlike motion detection systems, there is no way of verifying whether an alarm activation is genuine as generally only one perimeter device will be activated if an intruder manages to gain entry, especially if the intruder avoids the hall.
In addition, it is not difficult for experienced burglars to bypass perimeter protection, particularly if shock sensors are used.
In theory, any disturbance to the glass or frame should set off a shock sensor, however in practice, a strong impact is required for an activation.
An intruder can carefully remove a double glazed unit by removing the seal or bending the glass until it shatters.
Neither method will create sufficient vibration for the sensor to activate.
======================================

KoolKid

Sales speel to sell you the system they want to install. I'm not going to go into a ton of detail as to so many things that are wrong with that statement. But consider these 2 scenarios.
1) A burglar is attempting to gain entry and the vibration sensor activates the alarm. He has still to spend more time trying to break in while the alarm is ringing and possibly making a call to the monitoring station. He is unlikely to waste time here not knowing what the response time may be.
2)A burglar has spent all the time he wants to force a window or door. He has the door/open and still the alarm has not activated.
There has been 100-1000s worth of damage done to your windows /doors. He may even have damaged a few before getting in.
Now he enters and only now does the alarm activate. Does he run now? He's in, he has done the hard work. He knows he has a good few minutes. He won't be leaving empty handed.
Also bear in mind most perimeter systems will have a couple of pirs to verify the alarm as well.
Also bear in mind on a night time setting you will not get any activations untill the burglar is in the house. That's putting you in a very dangerous situation when the alarm does finally activate.

Evolution1

KoolKid wrote: »

Does either of them include polling?
Is there still an increase to come so?

Yes it does include polling. I can't comment on your second question TBH.

robnet77

KoolKid wrote: »

Sales speel to sell you the system they want to install. I'm not going to go into a ton of detail as to so many things that are wrong with that statement. But consider these 2 scenarios.
1) A burglar is attempting to gain entry and the vibration sensor activates the alarm. He has still to spend more time trying to break in while the alarm is ringing and possibly making a call to the monitoring station. He is unlikely to waste time here not knowing what the response time may be.
2)A burglar has spent all the time he wants to force a window or door. He has the door/open and still the alarm has not activated.
There has been 100-1000s worth of damage done to your windows /doors. He may even have damaged a few before getting in.
Now he enters and only now does the alarm activate. Does he run now? He's in, he has done the hard work. He knows he has a good few minutes. He won't be leaving empty handed.
Also bear in mind most perimeter systems will have a couple of pirs to verify the alarm as well.
Also bear in mind on a night time setting you will not get any activations untill the burglar is in the house. That's putting you in a very dangerous situation when the alarm does finally activate.

thanks for the feedback, I would definitely get the perimeter protected myself... they also install intertia shock sensors and leave the choice to the customer as to whether they would like to use either (or both).

KoolKid

No logic to having inertias only either. You can walk out and leave the windows wide open and the alarm will still set??????

robnet77

KoolKid wrote: »

No logic to having inertias only either. You can walk out and leave the windows wide open and the alarm will still set??????

well, they do recommend coupling perimeter sensors with PIRs:

"Perimeter protection is normally backed up with motion detectors (PIRs) in the hall and landing areas."

KoolKid

But if you are installing an inertia sensor it's as easy to install an inertia contact. If your going to do the job do it right.

robnet77

KoolKid wrote: »

But if you are installing an inertia sensor it's as easy to install an inertia contact. If your going to do the job do it right.

sorry, which of the above are you suggesting to use please?
I'm a bit confused now.

My understanding is that inertia sensors may not activate in case of glass panel being removed, is that correct?

KoolKid

Perimeter protection using sensors and contacts on all accessible windows. Back that up with a couple of PIRs.

John Kelly of

robnet77 wrote: »

sorry, which of the above are you suggesting to use please?
I'm a bit confused now.

My understanding is that inertia sensors may not activate in case of glass panel being removed, is that correct?

Your understanding is skewed because that guy told you a pack of lies.
There are a few cheaply made window types where you could get the glass out from the outside but in most cases it would be impossible to remove the glass from a window without activating the alarm if it had inertia sensor on it.
It's pretty outrageous that he is telling lies like that to people and succeeding in convincing lots of people. We tried to name and shame him before on here but the mods closed down the thread. Probably scared of being sued.

robnet77

John Kelly of wrote: »

Your understanding is skewed because that guy told you a pack of lies.
There are a few cheaply made window types where you could get the glass out from the outside but in most cases it would be impossible to remove the glass from a window without activating the alarm if it had inertia sensor on it.
It's pretty outrageous that he is telling lies like that to people and succeeding in convincing lots of people. We tried to name and shame him before on here but the mods closed down the thread. Probably scared of being sued.

I don't know if it's the same person, I dealt with a security company that put that info on their brochure, it was not just junk talk.
My neighbor had his house broken into overnight by someone who lifted the frame and removed one window pane, their alarm was not active at night but I think many old windows can be lifted the same way, because I saw many similar ones...

robnet77

I phoned that security company, a few interesting things here:

- they said inertia sensors are not reliable and are illegal in many European countries including Germany, Spain etc. (??)

- they claim they offer 8k to whoever is willing to have their intertia sensors tested in case they cannot manage to remove the glass without the alarm activating (???) ... if you want to give it a go, let me know

- they said it takes two activations for the garda to intervene, so they recommend putting at least 2-3 PIR sensors on the ground floor, so the garda knows it's not a false alarm and is notified immediately (if someone rings them, that is)

- they said they have advanced perimeter sensors that recognize body temperature on the glass, so if somebody puts their hand on the glass in order to try to lift it, the sensor will detect it (you would know it was not the postman knocking on your door if they actually break into your house, as the PIR will activate and send the second signal).

I'm now really confused...

KoolKid

I think John Kelly is right. Your thinking is skewed with all this. The amount of downright rubbish they are telling you is unreal. Ask any installer here what is better and they will all tell you the same. Perimeter protection is better. Any company that tells you different is looking for the cheap handy install. At the end of the day the whole idea of any security system is preventing someone breaking in. What they are offering is a system that will notify you after someone has already broken in. Honestly what good is that. They will be long gone before the Guards arrive.
They say to you PiRs offer the ability for the central station to react quicker. Surley they can react quicker if they get an alarm activation earlier. Ie before you have been broken into. A verified alarm does not guarantee Garda response. Also a PiR is not required to verify an alarm. Any activation of a second zone will suffice. If you set up inertia sensors and contacts on separate zones you could have a confirmed alarm as soon as a window or door is forced open.
I can't honestly say I can't think of one positive for using PiRs only without perimeter protection.