HKC Quantum 70 vs GSD i70: questions please

robnet77

KoolKid wrote: »

I think John Kelly is right. Your thinking is skewed with all this. The amount of downright rubbish they are telling you is unreal. ..

I can't honestly say I can't think of one positive for using PiRs only without perimeter protection.

they do seem to be backed up by various awards received, also they sell Visonic products which I think are quite advanced in technology.

I did not like the "I know it all" approach of the salesman on the phone to be honest, but for the perimeter protection he said they do recommend having it, but using an advanced sensor type which detects body heat on the window glass, plus PIRs inside the house to back it up.

KoolKid

We could all quote different manufacturers who we are aligned to. It means nothing, I use a lot of Siemens products. There's a brand that's trusted. But if I install a Siemens alarm using PiRs only it will be as useless as any other.
To be honest, I am a little confused. You have been given a lot of good advice here from good installers but you seem to be eager to justify this system no matter what advice we are giving you.
Are we missing something? ?

The body heat on glass is a good one. What's the devices they are using?

robnet77

KoolKid wrote: »

We could all quote different manufacturers who we are aligned to. It means nothing, I use a lot of Siemens products. There's a brand that's trusted. But if I install a Siemens alarm using PiRs only it will be as useless as any other.
To be honest, I am a little confused. You have been given a lot of good advice here from good installers but you seem to be eager to justify this system no matter what advice we are giving you.
Are we missing something? ?

The body heat on glass is a good one. What's the devices they are using?

I'm actually trying to have some of you convince me that intertia sensors do work in case a glass panel is lifted, which is what happened to my next door neighbor a couple of months ago.

I value the advice you guys give here and you are my first choice so far (even though you often argue with each other ), and I mentioned that I don't like the salesman from that company who spoke to me, what I would like is peace of mind first of all...

They are using "Visonics Curtain - Clip Pir", that's all the info I could get about them

Sequence 365

A small tip which does not involve technology.

( A ) If your windows are sealed on the outside with slips.

You can take the slips out and there are numerous sealers and compunds you can put in around the glass. Then re install your slips around windows or doors.

(B) Nearly all new windows and doors are completly sealed units.

(C) Another option is you could have external Point to Point Pirs

(D) I am 20yrs in the business and the way we would normally protect a house in an average 3 bed semi is as follows;

Interia sensors on all windows & doors
Contacts on all openings large and small
Pir in the rear of the house downstairs
Pir in the front of the house downstairs
Pir upstairs.

This way you are guaranteed to get a double activation. A keypad in the bedroom is a big help as well. For example if you have your system set a night time and it activates, when you disarm the system you will know exactly what zone has activated eg. if you see the kitchen door & the pir in the kitchen displaying you know you have a problem . Plus you also have a 24hr panic button built into your keypad.

I hope this might be of some help to you

robnet77

Sequence 365 wrote: »

A small tip which does not involve technology.

( A ) If your windows are sealed on the outside with slips.

You can take the slips out and there are numerous sealers and compunds you can put in around the glass. Then re install your slips around windows or doors.

(B) Nearly all new windows and doors are completly sealed units.

(C) Another option is you could have external Point to Point Pirs

(D) I am 20yrs in the business and the way we would normally protect a house in an average 3 bed semi is as follows;

Interia sensors on all windows & doors
Contacts on all openings large and small
Pir in the rear of the house downstairs
Pir in the front of the house downstairs
Pir upstairs.

This way you are guaranteed to get a double activation. A keypad in the bedroom is a big help as well. For example if you have your system set a night time and it activates, when you disarm the system you will know exactly what zone has activated eg. if you see the kitchen door & the pir in the kitchen displaying you know you have a problem . Plus you also have a 24hr panic button built into your keypad.

I hope this might be of some help to you

thanks, it really helps, but I would need someone to look at my windows and seal them if needed, I would not be able to do it myself. If you have some contacts for that, please pm me.
I'd also like to get a quote from you but you would need to beat some competition now .

p.s. I'm mid terrace and on the ground floor I have an open plan layout.

KoolKid

I think what you really need to do is get 3 or 4 companies out to do a proper risk assessment and do you out a proper system design proposal.
If I'm being honest you seem to have made up your mind on a lot of this. Get a few quotes, listen to the advice and keep an open mind on everything.

John Kelly of

Its the same person as I have that brochure.
Inertia sensors are not illegal anywhere and if someone told you that it is just a straight up lie.
The 8k offer is just bluster and will never happen obviously.
The vast majority of people in Ireland have inertia sensors on their windows and doors for good reason.
Like I said there are a few cheap window types where the sealing strips are on the outside and in that case it might be possible to remove the glass from the outside however I would still recommend inertia sensors as at least you have some chance of detecting attempted break in as opposed to zero chance.
The stuff about positioning a pir which detects heat at/near glass is obviously crazy. Just think about it? What happens when the sun shines on the window? False alarms. This is bonkers stuff.
The guy wants a quick easy install, stick up a couple of pirs and be out of there fast, he can't be bothered to do the job properly by doing the windows and doors. it really is as simple as that.

Don't rely on that guy's word, at least you had the sense to come on here and ask questions.
I would recommend inertia plus contact on all accessible windows and doors backed up pirs for alarm verification.
Get more quotes and read a little more and then you will be grand.

robnet77

John Kelly of wrote: »

Its the same person as I have that brochure.
Inertia sensors are not illegal anywhere and if someone told you that it is just a straight up lie.
The 8k offer is just bluster and will never happen obviously.
The vast majority of people in Ireland have inertia sensors on their windows and doors for good reason.
Like I said there are a few cheap window types where the sealing strips are on the outside and in that case it might be possible to remove the glass from the outside however I would still recommend inertia sensors as at least you have some chance of detecting attempted break in as opposed to zero chance.
The stuff about positioning a pir which detects heat at/near glass is obviously crazy. Just think about it? What happens when the sun shines on the window? False alarms. This is bonkers stuff.
The guy wants a quick easy install, stick up a couple of pirs and be out of there fast, he can't be bothered to do the job properly by doing the windows and doors. it really is as simple as that.

Don't rely on that guy's word, at least you had the sense to come on here and ask questions.
I would recommend inertia plus contact on all accessible windows and doors backed up pirs for alarm verification.
Get more quotes and read a little more and then you will be grand.

thanks for your feedback, this is one of the first posts that actually address my doubts, whereas previously I have to say I felt I was receiving non relevant replies.

I might have to disagree on the curtain sensors, they do exist, not sure how reliable they are but the brand Visonic offers them (it seems a popular brand in the UK, while here in Ireland most installers appear to stick to local brands):

http://www.visonic.com/Products/Wireless-Property-Protection/Motion-curtain-sensor-clip-mcw

I really haven't made up my mind on anything yet, but I agree perimeter protection is key, of course it needs to provide some sort of protection, including against glass panels being removed, at least until I get sorted with my windows as they are similar to my neighbor's (who got robbed that way).

I do favor technology though, I would definitely prefer an advanced product, that is why I mentioned Visonic - their sensor batteries last up to 8 years, wireless encryption is done properly and those curtain sensors would resolve my problem, if they proved to work as they claim that is...

altor

robnet77 wrote: »

I phoned that security company, a few interesting things here:

- they said inertia sensors are not reliable and are illegal in many European countries including Germany, Spain etc. (??)

- they claim they offer 8k to whoever is willing to have their intertia sensors tested in case they cannot manage to remove the glass without the alarm activating (???) ... if you want to give it a go, let me know

- they said it takes two activations for the garda to intervene, so they recommend putting at least 2-3 PIR sensors on the ground floor, so the garda knows it's not a false alarm and is notified immediately (if someone rings them, that is)

- they said they have advanced perimeter sensors that recognize body temperature on the glass, so if somebody puts their hand on the glass in order to try to lift it, the sensor will detect it (you would know it was not the postman knocking on your door if they actually break into your house, as the PIR will activate and send the second signal).

I'm now really confused...

I am confused myself with the response they have given you.
Are they using microwave PIRs to pick up an intruder through the glass?

A curtain PIR will activate when the intruder has broken the glass or forced your window. If you had a shock sensor on the window then this would of being picked up. I would also be aware of systems not having a pulse detection on the detectors they use. The pulse is there to detect a intruder taking out the glass plus cutting of the glass.
All the gross will do is pick up on a bang on the window, you need a pulse detection too.

altor

robnet77 wrote: »

thanks for your feedback, this is one of the first posts that actually address my doubts, whereas previously I have to say I felt I was receiving non relevant replies.

I might have to disagree on the curtain sensors, they do exist, not sure how reliable they are but the brand Visonic offers them (it seems a popular brand in the UK, while here in Ireland most installers appear to stick to local brands):

http://www.visonic.com/Products/Wireless-Property-Protection/Motion-curtain-sensor-clip-mcw

I really haven't made up my mind on anything yet, but I agree perimeter protection is key, of course it needs to provide some sort of protection, including against glass panels being removed, at least until I get sorted with my windows as they are similar to my neighbor's (who got robbed that way).

I do favor technology though, I would definitely prefer an advanced product, that is why I mentioned Visonic - their sensor batteries last up to 8 years, wireless encryption is done properly and those curtain sensors would resolve my problem, if they proved to work as they claim that is...

The Visonic plus the Risco do not have pulse detection on the sensors used.
I have heard of this being tested but the only way to get it to work was to lower the gross detection down to pick up on lesser shocks.
Not a great way of doing it and can lead to false alarms.

altor

robnet77 wrote: »

I'm actually trying to have some of you convince me that intertia sensors do work in case a glass panel is lifted, which is what happened to my next door neighbor a couple of months ago.

I have seen this happen all to often.

What I would advise is to pull the gasket out on both side inside the premises.
Using silicone fill the sides where the gasket was. This will make an intruder hoping the glass will just fall out job impossible

I would not advise taking out the beads from the outside to do this.

John Kelly of

Hi Altor I have never tried this myself but I reckon if you poked a small screwdriver in and parted the top of the strips just enough to squeeze some superglue in behind and let it run down the back, then press until it hardens there is no way those strips will be got off after that without major effort.

altor

John Kelly of wrote: »

Hi Altor I have never tried this myself but I reckon if you poked a small screwdriver in and parted the top of the strips just enough to squeeze some superglue in behind and let it run down the back, then press until it hardens there is no way those strips will be got off after that without major effort.

Hi JK, that will work also but the problem is if you ever have to replace the pane of glass. It would be a nightmare to get the beads off. Might cause more damage to the frame in the long run. My suggestion means that if you ever had to replace the glass you could easily cut the silicone from the inside then seal the new pane up the same way.

KoolKid

To be honest there is a lot of exaggeration in regard to this is the industry. Yes, it happens but it's rare and few and far between. If a burglar wants to go to this extremes then if it's easy for someone else to cut out silicone it's going to be easy for the burglar as well.
If an end user really feels this is an issue they want to protect themselves against then there are plenty of options. Perimeter protection backed up by plenty of PIRs is always going to be better than PiRs only. Another option is contacts on the frame and magnets on the glass. Some may say that is extreme, but if you want the earliest possible detection....

altor

The silicone is used on the inside where the gasket is installed.
An intruder would have to be in the premises to cut it out.

KoolKid

There are many ways depending on the type of window and the type of installation etc.
My main point was there are plenty of options over PiR detection only activating after a burglar has gained entry.

altor

Agreed, perimeter protection will always be the best solution over just PIRs.

robnet77

thanks everyone, actually I'm probably sorted now, a security company paid a visit to my place and had a promotion on an HKC system, which I can customize as I wish if needed.
I'm thinking not to include intertia sensors at the back of the ground floor as PIRs would be enough in the unlikely event (I'm mid terrace...)
Definitely going to protect the front perimeter in some way.

I will know more tomorrow.

KoolKid

Protecting the front perimeter only.
Not the back.
Promotion.
You can customise any system to suit your needs.
Sounds to me like you might have been sold something.
Everyone says the unlikely event. It's more likely than you think.
Have you had anyone else out. I would recommend getting 3 surveys to give you a more independent and balanced view.

Evolution1

Definitely protect the back . that's where they can't be seen and can have a field day trying all the windows they want.

robnet77

...this is the 4th price I received, and I can add any sensors for 50€ each, either PIR or perimeter type.

6 sensors of my choice are already included in a bundle for about 600€ (promotion means 200€ off the price they advertise on their website).

Protecting the back would require more sensors, ideally I would like to install 12 overall but can't afford so many of them, I'll see tomorrow what the bundle includes overall.

KoolKid

A couple of things come to mind here. So the normal price for 6 devices is €800? That's very dear.
If you want to add sensors etc on down you only need to pay €50 per device. That's very cheap.

fred funk }{

robnet77 wrote: »

...this is the 4th price I received, and I can add any sensors for 50€ each, either PIR or perimeter type.

6 sensors of my choice are already included in a bundle for about 600€ (promotion means 200€ off the price they advertise on their website).

Protecting the back would require more sensors, ideally I would like to install 12 overall but can't afford so many of them, I'll see tomorrow what the bundle includes overall.

Would you mind sending me a PM with that installation company.

robnet77

KoolKid wrote: »

A couple of things come to mind here. So the normal price for 6 devices is €800? That's very dear.
If you want to add sensors etc on down you only need to pay €50 per device. That's very cheap.

yeah their marketing model leaves much to be desired! that was my impression...

KoolKid

Can I ask what was in their risk assessment regarding the back areas..?

Evolution1

Are you getting the app included in that price? Would you mind PMing me the company name ? Seems a bit pricey for a bell only system.

Sequence 365

If they say an extra device if you need it down the road is € 50 .00
Is that including call out & fitting .

I would also advise you to find out what there call out charges are. Have they after hours service & if so what is a call out charge

A lot of companies put in equipment at nearly cost price & then they can be very expensive for call outs etc.