Rio 2016 Marathon Qualification, whos trying?

average_runner

28064212 wrote: »

Don't think there's any point sending FB, top 20 is hardly "respectable", better off saving the cash and sticking it into a youth program

If you're going to post a deliberately obtuse position, at least try and make it a consistent deliberately obtuse position.

Incidentally, how much cash would be saved? How much does it cost AAI to send, say, FB to Rio (assuming we'll be sending at least 1 person regardless)? Could we build a new centre of excellence for marathon running from the millions they'll save? What tangible effect could be seen from the money saved over the next 10-20 years? Particularly when offset against the benefits having an Olympic competitor on the (televised) international stage

I agree our track runners will get tv coverage, our marathon runners will get less than 5 mins. Look at the Europeans, even Britton got Feck all coverage.

28064212

average_runner wrote: »

I agree our track runners will get tv coverage, our marathon runners will get less than 5 mins. Look at the Europeans, even Britton got Feck all coverage.

Europeans and Olympics are totally different animals, they aren't comparable. Byrne, Hutchinson and Jennings in 2012 got more coverage than most of the European coverage combined

average_runner

28064212 wrote: »

Europeans and Olympics are totally different animals, they aren't comparable. Byrne, Hutchinson and Jennings in 2012 got more coverage than most of the European coverage combined

They got a bit more because it was London and in fairness it was still little.

Tv coverage card is pointless. How much we save I don't know, should we stop them, God knows, but we do need to readdress our focus but how is the million dollar question.

tang1

See Tom Fitzpatrick beat Mark Kenneally & Mick Clohissey over 5k this morning in Tallaght, obviously in great shape.

KielyUnusual

tang1 wrote: »

See Tom Fitzpatrick beat Mark Kenneally & Mick Clohissey over 5k this morning in Tallaght, obviously in great shape.

Are you sure? He ran a 5K in Greystones yesterday as well on the track. 2 flat out 5ks in 2 days would be a lot. Ran 14.14 yesterday.

tang1

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Are you sure? He ran a 5K in Greystones yesterday as well on the track. 2 flat out 5ks in 2 days would be a lot. Ran 14.14 yesterday.

Hes down on results as winning the Tallaght 5k this morning on Precision Timing, unless theres two of them.

KielyUnusual

tang1 wrote: »

Hes down on results as winning the Tallaght 5k this morning on Precision Timing, unless theres two of them.

Just saw the JTG tweet on it with photographic evidence so no doubt now . Very, very impressive. Must be in great shape alright. In fairness to Mick Clohissey, it's difficult to run a decent 5k off the back of a marathon so I wouldn't be surprised seeing him not winning.

KielyUnusual

Maria winning the women's race too. Wouldn't be surprised to see her break 2.30 in the marathon on a flat course off the back of some of her performances recently and her proven marathon pedigree.

Krusty_Clown

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Maria winning the women's race too. Wouldn't be surprised to see her break 2.30 in the marathon on a flat course off the back of some of her performances recently and her proven marathon pedigree.

Not a great time for her in Tallaght. May be weather-related, but you'd think she'd be htting 15:30 or better, on a standard road 5k, for a 2:30 marathon. Perhaps she was doing just enough for the top spot.

tang1

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Not a great time for her in Tallaght. May be weather-related, but you'd think she'd be htting 15:30 or better, on a standard road 5k, for a 2:30 marathon. Perhaps she was doing just enough for the top spot.

Thinking the same, Mary Cullen hit 15.58 for 5k on the road yesterday, thought Maria Mc would have ran something similar this morning or bit quicker.

KielyUnusual

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Not a great time for her in Tallaght. May be weather-related, but you'd think she'd be htting 15:30 or better, on a standard road 5k, for a 2:30 marathon. Perhaps she was doing just enough for the top spot.

I didn't even look at the time to be honest but I'd wonder how relevant it is. Her results can be a bit of a mixed bag depending on her focus. I would assume she was taking it handy enough. I was basing it largely on her running 2.34 in the marathon last year, which in my opinion would be worth a 2.31/2 on a course like London in less humid/windy conditions and also on her smashing the course record in Ballycotton this year. If she chooses a somewhat more forgiving course than Dublin this Autumn then I think she has a good chance at 2.30 or under. This is all wildly speculative of course .

Itziger

KielyUnusual wrote: »

I didn't even look at the time to be honest but I'd wonder how relevant it is. Her results can be a bit of a mixed bag depending on her focus. I would assume she was taking it handy enough. I was basing it largely on her running 2.34 in the marathon last year, which in my opinion would be worth a 2.31/2 on a course like London in less humid/windy conditions and also on her smashing the course record in Ballycotton this year. If she chooses a somewhat more forgiving course than Dublin this Autumn then I think she has a good chance at 2.30 or under. This is all wildly speculative of course .

Why would an elite choose Dublin? Especially one looking for an OQ time. Genuine question.

pconn062

KielyUnusual wrote: »

I didn't even look at the time to be honest but I'd wonder how relevant it is. Her results can be a bit of a mixed bag depending on her focus. I would assume she was taking it handy enough. I was basing it largely on her running 2.34 in the marathon last year, which in my opinion would be worth a 2.31/2 on a course like London in less humid/windy conditions and also on her smashing the course record in Ballycotton this year. If she chooses a somewhat more forgiving course than Dublin this Autumn then I think she has a good chance at 2.30 or under. This is all wildly speculative of course .

I thought I read somewhere that Maria is targeting Berlin for her qualification time. I personally think sub 2.30 is a bit of a stretch but 2.32 is within her reach.

Where did Mary Cullen run yesterday on the roads tang?

Krusty_Clown

Itziger wrote: »

Why would an elite choose Dublin? Especially one looking for an OQ time. Genuine question.

If you were well capable of the standard (like FB), you could take the national title at the same time. If you're dangerously close to the qualifying time, you'd have to seriously consider a faster course. Worth remembering though, that most years, Dublin has near perfect conditions, while other faster courses (Berlin, Frankfurt, Chicago, etc) can have some pretty wild swings in conditions. If I was going for an OQ this autumn, I'd sign up for a fast course, but would be prepared to have back-up options and Dublin would certainly be one of them. The support on the course would also be phenomenal. I wonder if the Irish national title standard will take a hit this year? I would assume so.

Itziger

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

If you were well capable of the standard (like FB), you could take the national title at the same time. If you're dangerously close to the qualifying time, you'd have to seriously consider a faster course. Worth remembering though, that most years, Dublin has near perfect conditions, while other faster courses (Berlin, Frankfurt, Chicago, etc) can have some pretty wild swings in conditions. If I was going for an OQ this autumn, I'd sign up for a fast course, but would be prepared to have back-up options and Dublin would certainly be one of them. The support on the course would also be phenomenal. I wonder if the Irish national title standard will take a hit this year? I would assume so.

Krusty, as a runner who's extremely close to Maria Mc on times, what do ya reckon she could do on a fast course? 2.30 does sound a bit optimistic, no?

dublin runner

Two brilliant runs by Tom Fitz over the weekend. A serious contender for the standard.

I imagine the times in Dublin will be way down, even on last year. A good chance for some not targeting the qualifying time to get a national medal.

tang1

pconn062 wrote: »

I thought I read somewhere that Maria is targeting Berlin for her qualification time. I personally think sub 2.30 is a bit of a stretch but 2.32 is within her reach.

Where did Mary Cullen run yesterday on the roads tang?

Sligo P, Ballymote, results on Precision Timing.

DocQismyJesus

dublin runner wrote: »

Two brilliant runs by Tom Fitz over the weekend. A serious contender for the standard.

Agree savage running by him - let's not get carried away though- still hasn't debuted at the marathon and staying healthy has been an issue the past while

curtisbrown

I can't link to it, but Andrew Lemoncello talks about Fagan in his latest blog post.

( @lemonruns on Twitter )

thirstywork2

curtisbrown wrote: »

I can't link to it, but Andrew Lemoncello talks about Fagan in his latest blog post.

( @lemonruns on Twitter )

I got a message on Friday night that I didn’t expect to see at all. It was from Martin Fagan, my former training partner, Irish athlete and unfortunately, a convicted drug cheat. I hadn’t been in touch with Martin since his drug ban was first announced except a few messages this past summer when he wished me good luck for the Commonwealth Games. I didn’t actually know what to do at first as I don’t want to be associated with drug cheats as they are the people that are destroying the sport that I love. I don’t think drug cheats should be allowed to compete again or at very least their bans should be 8 years or criminalize it so that there is no chance that they can tarnish the sport again. This situation was different for me because I’ve known Martin since I was a junior back home in Scotland and had lived and trained with him for many years. I ended up meeting with him at 6am at the track as I was starting my run there and we ran for 75 minutes together. It’s clear that he knows he was very much in the wrong when he decided to take EPO and there is no excuse for it. He understands why many runners do not want to see him racing and in the sport again (he has just come off a 2:16 marathon in Zurich where he achieved the Olympic marathon standard). He even said that he wouldn’t want to compete in the Olympics if he was selected. It sounds like he’s very much at peace with his life now (this wasn’t the case when he lived in Flagstaff) and moving forward from the costly mistake he made. We didn’t talk about his drug use but talked running and what he faces back home when he turns up at races. From that I didn’t need to ask as I could tell it’s not an easy situation for him, which it shouldn’t be. I’m glad that he’s learned a lot in the past years and that he’s moving on with his life in the best way he knows.

RedRunner

Very interesting read that. I have to say I have some sympathy for MF. He made a life changing drastic mistake which he deserved to be punished for. I in no way condone what he did .But I think he shows enormous strength of character to continue competing and I'm sure suffer abuse from many quarters while pursuing the sport he obviously loves. It also shows how far he has come in terms of combating his own internal issues. The phrase that springs to my mind here is "to err is human, to forgive is devine" Surely there is a place for rehabilitation in this debate for cases where there is genuine repentance (And I know some will say it is easy to be repentant when you are caught. I completely understand that) and he has something to offer to the sport . Of course if you are an athlete at that level that missed out on something because of his performances while taking EPO , your perspective woudl be very different I imagine. If what he is saying is true in terms of Olympic selection and not competing then I say fair play to him.
I would note also that not all elites look at him in the same way. I recall speaking with an elite runner who had just been beaten by him in a race. It was shortly after the race and he could have been sore about it, he was beaten in a race that he has never won and had MF not showed up it was his for the taking. Yet, he told me he was glad MF ran the race as it presented him with a challenge on the day. I find that outlook on it quite refreshing.

It's a tricky debate overall. On the bright side I think it is fantastic that there are so many names cropping up on this thread of potential names that may hit OQ time. I think that shows there is somthing good happening somewhere in Irish Athletics. I look forward to us sending a strong team to RIO and sitting in front of the TV like I did back in 1984 watching Kiernan,Hooper and Treacy.

kit3

RedRunner wrote: »

Very interesting read that. I have to say I have some sympathy for MF. He made a life changing drastic mistake which he deserved to be punished for. I in no way condone what he did .But I think he shows enormous strength of character to continue competing and I'm sure suffer abuse from many quarters while pursuing the sport he obviously loves. It also shows how far he has come in terms of combating his own internal issues. The phrase that springs to my mind here is "to err is human, to forgive is devine" Surely there is a place for rehabilitation in this debate for cases where there is genuine repentance (And I know some will say it is easy to be repentant when you are caught. I completely understand that) and he has something to offer to the sport . Of course if you are an athlete at that level that missed out on something because of his performances while taking EPO , your perspective woudl be very different I imagine. If what he is saying is true in terms of Olympic selection and not competing then I say fair play to him.
I would note also that not all elites look at him in the same way. I recall speaking with an elite runner who had just been beaten by him in a race. It was shortly after the race and he could have been sore about it, he was beaten in a race that he has never won and had MF not showed up it was his for the taking. Yet, he told me he was glad MF ran the race as it presented him with a challenge on the day. I find that outlook on it quite refreshing.

It's a tricky debate overall. On the bright side I think it is fantastic that there are so many names cropping up on this thread of potential names that may hit OQ time. I think that shows there is somthing good happening somewhere in Irish Athletics. I look forward to us sending a strong team to RIO and sitting in front of the TV like I did back in 1984 watching Kiernan,Hooper and Treacy.

+1 would agree that this is a very tricky and emotive subject and that your perspective would be different if you were an elite athlete. However, as a person, I have a lot of sympathy for MF - it must be very difficult to keep turning up to races where he is bound to attract such attention - that takes guts. Wish him the best of luck & if he ends up in Rio will certainly be supporting him.

PWEI

kit3 wrote: »

+1 would agree that this is a very tricky and emotive subject and that your perspective would be different if you were an elite athlete. However, as a person, I have a lot of sympathy for MF - it must be very difficult to keep turning up to races where he is bound to attract such attention - that takes guts. Wish him the best of luck & if he ends up in Rio will certainly be supporting him.

If Fagan had guts he would have showed up at the launch of the Dublin Marathon yesterday & answered the hard questions that journalists might have asked him. Questions about his bizarre excuses to why he cheated.

Fagan was invited but never showed up.

You make it sound like it's some sort of great human achievement, Fagan turning up at all these races & getting well paid for winning them.

The athletes that have guts are those that resist the temptation to dope & try & achieve success through hard work

Personally I have more respect for the likes of Cathal Lombard & Geraldine Hendricken who quit after serving their bans & didn't represent their country again.

barryoneill50

Why would he show up at the launch of an event he won't be competing in?
You (or anyone for that matter) may not have liked his answers but he has addressed "the hard questions" many times over.
Get over it.

PWEI wrote: »

If Fagan had guts he would have showed up at the launch of the Dublin Marathon yesterday & answered the hard questions that journalists might have asked him. Questions about his bizarre excuses to why he cheated.

Fagan was invited but never showed up.

You make it sound like it's some sort of great human achievement, Fagan turning up at all these races & getting well paid for winning them.

The athletes that have guts are those that resist the temptation to dope & try & achieve success through hard work

Personally I have more respect for the likes of Cathal Lombard & Geraldine Hendricken who quit after serving their bans & didn't represent their country again.

PWEI

barryoneill50 wrote: »

Why would he show up at the launch of an event he won't be competing in?
.

Because he was invited & said he would attend.

barryoneill50

PWEI wrote: »

Because he was invited & said he would attend.

Fair enough, I'll take your word for it....

pistol_75

thirstywork2 wrote: »

He understands why many runners do not want to see him racing and in the sport again (he has just come off a 2:16 marathon in Zurich where he achieved the Olympic marathon standard). He even said that he wouldn’t want to compete in the Olympics if he was selected.

This seems a bit strange to me. If he doesn't want to compete in the Olympics what is he doing travelling to Zurich to run a Marathon?

kit3

PWEI wrote: »

You make it sound like it's some sort of great human achievement, Fagan turning up at all these races & getting well paid for winning them.

The athletes that have guts are those that resist the temptation to dope & try & achieve success through hard work

.

Firstly, what I wrote is simply my opinion. I acknowledged that this is a very tricky & emotive issue and certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me.

Interesting to see how you read my post because that is not what I intended. If I thought what he was doing was 'a great human achievement' I would have said that he was being amazingly brave, that what he was doing was astonishing or something like that. I don't think that my post conveyed this at all - I said that, as a person, I think that it would be very difficult to put himself in situations where he knows there will be speculation (I'm not saying he is right or wrong to do this by the way). To continue to do this, in my opinion, takes guts. I posted that as an observation. I do not in any way condone what he has done. I do agree with you 100% that the athletes that resist the temptation to dope & try & achieve success through hard work have guts and they are the ones that should be applauded.

Clum

PWEI wrote: »

Because he was invited & said he would attend.

He gave notice the day before the launch that he couldn't go. I don't know the reasons (the lemonruns.com blog reads like Fagan was in Flagstaff on the weekend).

From reading articles in a few papers it looked like the marathon launch was going to be more than just that. Looks like he was going to be wheeled out as the newest member of the Marathon Mission scheme and put in the spotlight in front of the attending media. Maybe he wasn't prepared for that. Aughney does refer to a statement from Fagan saying he didn't want to take the headlines away from the marathon launch.

average_runner

pistol_75 wrote: »

This seems a bit strange to me. If he doesn't want to compete in the Olympics what is he doing travelling to Zurich to run a Marathon?

Why were you willing to travel to London to run a marathon?

Why did i run he New York marathon?

dublin runner

PWEI wrote: »

....Fagan turning up at all these races & getting well paid for winning them.

Lol. A bit of perspective.

Do you really think getting a few hundred euro for running 65 minute half marathons is 'well paid'?

I could think of thousands of easier ways to earn such money. You don't run road races in this country for the money/funding/fame.

PWEI

dublin runner wrote: »

Lol. A bit of perspective.

Do you really think getting a few hundred euro for running 65 minute half marathons is 'well paid'?

I could think of thousands of easier ways to earn such money. You don't run road races in this country for the money/funding/fame.

Well €500 for 24 minutes work is good money & that's what he got for winning the Raheny 5. (I was at the presentation)
It's not as if he's running half marathon's all the time.
He ran loads of shorter races this year & nobody can touch him over those distances. I'm sure if you count the prize money he's made since his return it is well in to the thousands.

Clearlier

PWEI wrote: »

Well €500 for 24 minutes work is good money & that's what he got for winning the Raheny 5. (I was at the presentation)
It's not as if he's running half marathon's all the time.
He ran loads of shorter races this year & nobody can touch him over those distances. I'm sure if you count the prize money he's made since his return it is well in to the thousands.

That's a pretty awful misinterpretation of numbers. He doesn't just show up and run for 24 minutes and get paid. He has to spend a lot of time doing the training to get there in the first place. If it were available (and it isn't) he couldn't even do that once a week for every week of the year and even if he could he'd be taking home €26k a year which might be enough to live off but isn't good money.

PWEI

Clearlier wrote: »

That's a pretty awful misinterpretation of numbers. He has to spend a lot of time doing the training to get there in the first place. .

And so do clean athletes who didn't try to take short cuts & arguably had to work harder.

barryoneill50

PWEI wrote: »

And so do clean athletes who didn't try to take short cuts & arguably had to work harder.

If you seen someone taking shortcuts in a race you should have noted their number and reported them....

TRR_the_turd

PWEI wrote: »

And so do clean athletes who didn't try to take short cuts & arguably had to work harder.

I think all of these arguments have been made previously a few pages back. We will end up going around in circles. There is a pro and anti stance regards all this and neither side will change the minds of the other by the looks of things!

Clearlier

PWEI wrote: »

And so do clean athletes who didn't try to take short cuts & arguably had to work harder.

You're missing my point. I didn't make any comment on Martin Fagan. I commented on the idea that he's 'well paid'.

I hesitate to comment on Martin Fagan because like most I'm completely opposed to drugs in sport but I also believe in second chances. I think that it should be 'one strike and you're out' but I also recognise that our ability to combat drug use in sport has been enhanced by the admissions of athletes who have been caught and agreed to co-operate with the authorities where they might not have if they had no opportunity to return to the sport. I have a lot of sympathy for the man, none for his actions.

TL:DR - I'm conflicted about Fagan.

dublin runner

This debate has be done to death. He's back running and that's it.

24 minutes? You cannot really believe that. I won't ever go into the how absurd that analysis is.

If he's the fastest person in a race so be it. Whether people like it or not that's the rules. He has a right to the prize-money just like everyone else.

If he's amongst the fastest qualifiers so be it. If he runs in Rio so be it. That's how it is, no matter how I or anybody else feels. Time to move on.

average_runner

dublin runner wrote: »

This debate has be done to death. He's back running and that's it.

24 minutes? You cannot really believe that. I won't ever go into the how absurd that analysis is.

If he's the fastest person in a race so be it. Whether people like it or not that's the rules. He has a right to the prize-money just like everyone else.

If he's amongst the fastest qualifiers so be it. If he runs in Rio so be it. That's how it is, no matter how I or anybody else feels. Time to move on.

If bolt can get over Gatlin and welcome him back, surely we can get over Fagan and we aren't even competing against him

menoscemo

PWEI wrote: »

He ran loads of shorter races this year & nobody can touch him over those distances. I'm sure if you count the prize money he's made since his return it is well in to the thousands.

In fairness Paul Pollock beat him in the Greencastle 5 mile on St Stephens day past, I think Pollock won the grand sum of £100 and Fagan got £50 for second. It would hardly cover his petrol money.

TRR_the_turd

menoscemo wrote: »

In fairness Paul Pollock beat him in the Greencastle 5 mile on St Stephens day past, I think Pollock won the grand sum of £100 and Fagan got £50 for second. It would hardly cover his petrol money.

lots of local races down his way where he would have got feck all prize money. Sure he's had a few nice wins but I don't think the money is the driving factor! Oh Jesus no, I've probably started this debate off again

Chivito550

"Well paid". LOL

There is no athlete in Irish athletics who is "well paid".

What an insanely hilarious comment. And 24 minutes work? Bolt is very overpaid so for 9 seconds of labour. Cushy number.

tang1

See he ran 14.47 this evening for 5k, huge payday for that no doubt to.

eldiva

PWEI wrote: »

Personally I have more respect for the likes of Cathal Lombard & Geraldine Hendricken who quit after serving their bans & didn't represent their country again.

Lombard came back after his ban and ran and won the National Cross Country. At least Fagan has ran a national event as of yet.

nobody told me

Does anyone know if joe Sweeney is still running? He hasn't been seen much since his marathon debut, maybe it broke him. The mulhares have kinda disappeared as well, Michael had a real good cross country season last year but hasn't been seen this year in any big races.

eldiva

Fagan is totally entitled to race/compete etc whenever or wherever he likes. I just see him wanting to prove a point by being fastest qualifier but also saving face/regaining respect by not taking a place on flight to Rio. That is the reason I think he did Zurich and may do another down the pipeline. In fairness too him why should he be at the launch of a marathon that he is not running and why did they invite others like Hehir & Mulligan when they aren't even doing the marathon themselves

kit3

tang1 wrote: »

See he ran 14.47 this evening for 5k, huge payday for that no doubt to.

He should be able to retire on that ...

eldiva

nobody told me wrote: »

Does anyone know if joe Sweeney is still running? He hasn't been seen much since his marathon debut, maybe it broke him. The mulhares have kinda disappeared as well, Michael had a real good cross country season last year but hasn't been seen this year in any big races.

Dan ran the cross country season last winter and opted out of running Euro cross for some reason. Michael has had numerous injuries including if I'm not mistaken a fractured patella along with stress fractres due to his running biomechanics. Joe ran road relays for UCD back in November but has been quiet since then, not sure if he is injured.

tang1

eldiva wrote: »

Fagan is totally entitled to race/compete etc whenever or wherever he likes. I just see him wanting to prove a point by being fastest qualifier but also saving face/regaining respect by not taking a place on flight to Rio. That is the reason I think he did Zurich and may do another down the pipeline. In fairness too him why should he be at the launch of a marathon that he is not running and why did they invite others like Hehir & Mulligan when they aren't even doing the marathon themselves

Thing is he'll never gain respect again after his drug ban. Thats his own fault and i'm sure he knows that. I remember reading a post here a few years back in reference to him when he was sponsored by Reebok. Think it may have been after the Great Ireland Run one year, where he gave a runner his runners as a memento after they asked for an autograph. Now say what ever else you want about the man, but that shows some sort of decency. I'll always admire the man, drug cheat or not.

eldiva

tang1 wrote: »

Thing is he'll never gain respect again after his drug ban. Thats his own fault and i'm sure he knows that. I remember reading a post here a few years back in reference to him when he was sponsored by Reebok. Think it may have been after the Great Ireland Run one year, where he gave a runner his runners as a memento after they asked for an autograph. Now say what ever else you want about the man, but that shows some sort of decency. I'll always admire the man, drug cheat or not.

I wouldn't disagree with you on anything you stated there