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Practical advantages of 3 phase in domestic setting

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    #32
    ABC101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭ABC101


    I don't know anything about the cost of 3 phase for a Irish household.

    However I would imagine it to cost a small fortune.

    Having one phase is expensive enough due to standing charge, Non fossil fuel obligation levies, VAT, Carbon tax charges etc etc.

    If you had three phase supply.... then would all these charges be multiplied by 3?

    My own monthly electric bill ( for a single phase) comprises approximately 30% of charges. The other 70% of the bill is just for electricity which has been used.

    As households install more insulation, lower energy lighting, solar water heater panels, better U - value windows etc etc etc.... the domestic electricity usage should reduce.

    Which means the supply companies... will just ramp up the levies and standing charges to compensate.

    I would not be surprised if in 10 years time... charges will comprise over 40% of a households domestic electricity bill.


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    #33
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    ABC101 wrote: »
    I would not be surprised if in 10 years time... charges will comprise over 40% of a households domestic electricity bill.

    I'd say you might be right, probably increase the vat on the carbon tax etc.


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    #34
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    cnocbui wrote: »
    A fraction? Doing the maths I get 47Kg Propane bottles works out at 17.3c per Kwh. I am paying 16.5c per Kwh for electricity.

    Well then you should consider using Natural Gas.
    This costs around €0.06 per unit.
    That is a fraction of the cost per unit of electricity.

    If heating with electricity was cheaper to heat with then there would be no market for gas boilers?


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    #35
    ABC101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭ABC101


    2011 wrote: »
    Well then you should consider using Natural Gas.
    This costs around €0.06 per unit.
    That is a fraction of the cost per unit of electricity.

    If heating with electricity was cheaper to heat with then there would be no market for gas boilers?

    Monthly standing charge on a gas meter is much lower when compared to a ESB meter as well.


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    #36
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 20,090 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Well in post 12 you said you would get an instant water heater.

    I simply posted that an instant water heater can be single phase.

    You then upgrade your instant heater to a system in post 17.

    Is there someone on Boards I could lobby to have a head banging on desk smilie added?


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    #37
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 20,090 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    2011 wrote: »
    Well then you should consider using Natural Gas.
    This costs around €0.06 per unit.
    That is a fraction of the cost per unit of electricity.

    If heating with electricity was cheaper to heat with then there would be no market for gas boilers?

    So how much do you reckon to get 2km of gas pipe laid through rock?


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    #38
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    cnocbui wrote: »
    So how much do you reckon to get 2km of gas pipe laid through rock?

    About the same price as installing several pylons, why?


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    #39
    ABC101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭ABC101


    cnocbui wrote: »
    So how much do you reckon to get 2km of gas pipe laid through rock?

    If you are in a remote area.... and have land / space around the house... then you would be better off getting solar heating in....... with a large enough array to build up a large reservoir of heat in a 10,000 lt tank (for example) to get you through the winter / chillier times etc.


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    #40
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    ABC101 wrote: »
    If you are in a remote area.... and have land / space around the house... then you would be better off getting solar heating in....... with a large enough array to build up a large reservoir of heat in a 10,000 lt tank (for example) to get you through the winter / chillier times etc.

    +1
    My thoughts exactly.


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    #41
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    cnocbui wrote: »
    Is there someone on Boards I could lobby to have a head banging on desk smilie added?

    Knock yourself out.


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    #42
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 20,090 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    ABC101 wrote: »
    If you are in a remote area.... and have land / space around the house... then you would be better off getting solar heating in....... with a large enough array to build up a large reservoir of heat in a 10,000 lt tank (for example) to get you through the winter / chillier times etc.

    No you wouldn't.


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    #43
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    cnocbui wrote: »
    No you wouldn't.
    Why not, is there a big rock blocking the sun there too?


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    #44
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 20,090 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Why not, is there a big rock blocking the sun there too?

    There's a sun? Is that a local name for cloud?

    Solar hot water systems are only economically viable in countries with a moderate climate or in colder climates where there is a high level of HW use.


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    #45
    ABC101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭ABC101


    cnocbui wrote: »
    No you wouldn't.

    You don't think so... no?

    I was not just referring to heating water for hot water use, i.e. showers, washing hands, or washing dishes etc.

    I was also implying you could use it for underfloor heating as well.

    There are quiet a few designs around where a large water storage tank (which is super insulated) can provide most of the houses heating needs, including space heating etc.


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    #46
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 20,090 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    ABC101 wrote: »
    You don't think so... no?

    No I don't. I don't believe in perpetual motion machines either or in little gizmos you add to your engine, or fuel additives, that will get you 80 mpg or that diesel cars are cheaper to own than petrol ones or that electric cars make any kind of sense.
    I was not just referring to heating water for hot water use, i.e. showers, washing hands, or washing dishes etc.

    I made that assumption when you mentioned storage tanks and large areas.
    I was also implying you could use it for underfloor heating as well.

    Ah yes, the old 'retrofit underfloor heating to an existing house trick.'
    There are quiet a few designs around where a large water storage tank (which is super insulated) can provide most of the houses heating needs, including space heating etc.

    Would those be based on one of those really large area solar PV arrays driving god's own heat pump and a tank with meter thick aerogel insulation and a payback period your grandchildren will curse you for?


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    #47
    ABC101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭ABC101


    cnocbui wrote: »
    No I don't. I don't believe in perpetual motion machines either or in little gizmos you add to your engine, or fuel additives, that will get you 80 mpg or that diesel cars are cheaper to own than petrol ones or that electric cars make any kind of sense.



    I made that assumption when you mentioned storage tanks and large areas.



    Ah yes, the old 'retrofit underfloor heating to an existing house trick.'



    Would those be based on one of those really large area solar PV arrays driving god's own heat pump and a tank with meter thick aerogel insulation and a payback period your grandchildren will curse you for?


    So I take it that is a No then?

    :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:


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    #48
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    cnocbui wrote: »
    or that electric cars make any kind of sense.
    I have a feeling that same type of thing has been said a few times in the last couple of centuries. Whether electric cars make sense or not, that type of thinking by all, would have us still in caves now. Luckily it didn't prevail, although maybe cave life might not be too bad.


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    #49
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    cnocbui wrote: »
    No I don't. I don't believe in perpetual motion machines either or in little gizmos you add to your engine, or fuel additives, that will get you 80 mpg or that diesel cars are cheaper to own than petrol ones or that electric cars make any kind of sense.



    I made that assumption when you mentioned storage tanks and large areas.



    Ah yes, the old 'retrofit underfloor heating to an existing house trick.'



    Would those be based on one of those really large area solar PV arrays driving god's own heat pump and a tank with meter thick aerogel insulation and a payback period your grandchildren will curse you for?

    This post demonstrates that you are not looking at economical alternatives. This stance will cost you a lot of money, even in the short term.

    Even a very large house in a very cold climate should not require 36kW of any type of heating. If you are a sceptic when it comes to solar, fair enough. Either way I would stongly reccommend that you invest in some descent insulation, it is obviously lacking.


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    #50
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,027 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    It seems I can also get 3 phase suction pumps (I plan to use groundwater to supply the toilets and washing machine and to provide water for the garden, washing the car etc.) as drinking water is expensive here. I will have to look a bit closer at this though as our groundwater here is (at lowest point) just 2.6 metres below ground level, so I suspect a 3 phase pump is not even required and would never pay for itself compared to a cheap single phase one.

    All these things though would go in the utility/technical room in the cellar, so no special consideration really needs to be taken now as 3 phase will definitely be available in that room as the distribution board will be in there.


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    #51
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    murphaph wrote: »
    It seems I can also get 3 phase suction pumps (I plan to use groundwater to supply the toilets and washing machine and to provide water for the garden, washing the car etc.) as drinking water is expensive here. I will have to look a bit closer at this though as our groundwater here is (at lowest point) just 2.6 metres below ground level, so I suspect a 3 phase pump is not even required and would never pay for itself compared to a cheap single phase one.

    All these things though would go in the utility/technical room in the cellar, so no special consideration really needs to be taken now as 3 phase will definitely be available in that room as the distribution board will be in there.

    When it comes to motors given the option I would always go 3 phase, even when extra power is not required. The main advantages are increased reliability and lower running costs.


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    #52
    nulabert
    Registered Users Posts: 465 ✭✭nulabert


    Anyone know what the difference in monthly standing charges are for 3 phase v single phase.

    I found this but i'm confused!!

    https://www.esb.ie/esbnetworks/en/commercial-downloads/ESB-Networks-Statement-of-Charges.pdf


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    #53
    iopener
    Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭iopener


    I have seen a building with a CHP (combined heat and power ) unit installed, they are used as a secondary heat source for medium size buildings, heating HW tanks. They run off a single cylinder gas powered engine, very efficiently designed they used a intercooler on the engine and the exhaust to heat the water and generate 3 phase power as the same time. Unfortunately the ESB won't allow the gennie to connect to the grid so the is a waste. As far as I know there's no single phase unit available, these CHP units are very common in Germany often in apartment blocks, schools and office blocks as the 3 phase can supplied back to the German national grid via a frequency convertor.


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