witness cyclist knocked down - what you do?

souter

without getting into the specifics in case this goes to court...

Heard a bang and saw the cyclist on the deck from a pretty straightforward motorist pulling out of side road without looking.

I join the congregating crowd and offer my vast medical skills, "Are you sure you are alright?".
Cyclist appears to be physically ok though shaken up . Motorist is also shaken and in no hurry to leave.
I don't interact with the motorist other than a sarky "How did you manage that? - "I don't know".
Asked the cyclist if they wanted to go the gards, answer no.
At that I left.

At home I wished I'd pressed my number on the cyclist in case they changed their mind, so settled for calling the National Traffic Line.
They directed me to the local gard station, so I called them and gave them them the bare bones.
They were quite open that it would be logged, but in the absense of either party bringing it to the guards nothing was likely to a happen.

So I'm reasonably happy I didn't chin the offending motorist as the knocked down cyclist was more important. And they were, if not contrite, aware of their culpability.

Stupid question, should I have been dialling 999 at the site ?

poochiem

Always call the guards. The guard is then a witness that both parties can contact.

souter

Which I did. Sort of. I didn't call 999 at the spot because
a) the victim didn't want me to
b) how long would the blues and twos have taken?

Wishbone Ash

poochiem wrote: »

.....The guard is then a witness....

How could the Garda be a 'witness' to something they haven't witnessed?

souter wrote: »

Which I did. Sort of. I didn't call 999 at the spot because
a) the victim didn't want me to
b) how long would the blues and twos have taken?

If a person has suffered an injury as a result of a RTA, there is an obligation to report it to the Gardai. Generally using 999/112 would not be necessary unless the injury was serious enough to warrant an ambulance or there was traffic disruption. Both parties could simply go to the nearest Garda station and report it and provide the necessary details.

arybvtcw0eolkf

souter wrote: »

Heard a bang and saw the cyclist on the deck from a pretty straightforward motorist pulling out of side road without looking

If you heard a bang, and seen the cyclist on the ground you're only guessing the motorist pulled out without looking so its not really that straight forward at all.

I'd an accident about twenty years ago, I made a right turn from a main road onto a minor road, heard/felt a bang. Got out and there was a cyclist on the deck.. The idiot was cycling without lights or a back brake on a filthy wet, cold and dark morning, I called the cops to cover myself ~ the cops advice was the cyclist should pay for the cost of repair to the rear quarter panel on my car, I never got a penny from the little *****.

Seaswimmer

poochiem wrote: »

Always call the guards. The guard is then a witness that both parties can contact.

Guards are highly unlikely to come unless there is an ambulance called or major traffic disruption.

No harm reporting it but I wouldn't be depending on them attending the scene.

BlatentCheek

Hayden Hissing Limb wrote: »

If you heard a bang, and seen the cyclist on the ground you're only guessing the motorist pulled out without looking so its not really that straight forward at all.

I'd an accident about twenty years ago, I made a right turn from a main road onto a minor road, heard/felt a bang. Got out and there was a cyclist on the deck.. The idiot was cycling without lights or a back brake on a filthy wet, cold and dark morning, I called the cops to cover myself ~ the cops advice was the cyclist should pay for the cost of repair to the rear quarter panel on my car, I never got a penny from the little *****.

They're going to love you in here!

CramCycle

Seaswimmer wrote: »

No harm reporting it but I wouldn't be depending on them attending the scene.

The motorist and cyclist should have reported it because if one party left without doing so it will be frowned upon. No need for 999/112, just call the local garda station, if its not an emergency. It is also a legal requirement AFAIK but am open to correction. They may attend, might not, I thought they try to, you are just low on their priority list unless the accident is causing an obstruction.

BlatentCheek wrote: »

They're going to love you in here!

No reason we wouldn't, Makikomi made a valid point about the necessity of lights and brakes.

iwillhtfu

BlatentCheek wrote: »

They're going to love you in here!

He's a regular poster and cyclist presenting a balanced statement.

What's not to love

There are as many gob****e cyclists as motorists out there.

OP technically you weren't a witness to anything so not really anything you could add there were probably be positioned witnesses to the incident.

Wishbone Ash

Seaswimmer wrote: »

.....No harm reporting it ....

There is a legal obligation to report it.

106.—(1) Where injury is caused to person or property in a public place and a vehicle is involved in the occurrence of the injury (whether the use of the vehicle was or was not the cause of the injury), the following provisions shall have effect:

(a) if the vehicle is not stationary after the occurrence, the driver of the vehicle shall stop the vehicle;

(b) the driver or other person in charge of the vehicle shall keep the vehicle at or near the place of the occurrence for a period which is reasonable in all the circumstances of the case and having regard to the provisions of this section;

(c) the driver of the vehicle or, if he is killed or incapacitated, the person then in charge of the vehicle shall give on demand the appropriate information to a member of the Garda Síochána or, if no such member is present, to one person entitled under this section to demand such information;

(d) if a member of the Garda Síochána is not present at the occurrence and either—

(i) there is no person entitled under this section to demand the information, or

(ii) the case is one in which, as respects the sole person entitled under this section to demand the appropriate information or each of the persons so entitled, it is reasonably clear that he could not be expected to make a demand because of injury, illness, age or other disability,

the driver of the vehicle or, if he is killed or incapacitated, the person then in charge of the vehicle shall report the occurrence as soon as possible to a member of the Garda Síochána and, if necessary, shall go for that purpose to the nearest convenient Garda Síochána station and also shall give on demand the appropriate information to the member.

Qualitymark

Yeah, probably would have been good to give your number to both cyclist and driver in case of later need.
On-the-spot witnesses are not always correct - you tend to whip around and take in the scene a few moments after the accident. Many years ago I went through a green light just before it turned orange-and-immediately-red (very badly adjusted traffic lights). A pedestrian stepped straight out, and though I was going slowly, I bumped her and she landed on her bottom on the road.
Everyone within sight immediately came running up and abused me for "going through a red light". It wasn't red when i went through!

mickoc

How can you assume the motorist hit the cyclist when you saw nothing. The victim was probably the motorist. I could walk around Dublin city centre for 1 hour and be guaranteed to be knocked down at least 3 times by cyclists

You were a witness but saw nothing. It wouldn't be much use in court imo

iwillhtfu

mickoc wrote: »

How can you assume the motorist hit the cyclist when you saw nothing. The victim was probably the motorist. I could walk around Dublin city centre for 1 hour and be guaranteed to be knocked down at least 3 times by cyclists

Don't let that chip on your shoulder drag you down there pal.

Qualitymark

mickoc wrote: »

How can you assume the motorist hit the cyclist when you saw nothing. The victim was probably the motorist. I could walk around Dublin city centre for 1 hour and be guaranteed to be knocked down at least 3 times by cyclists

The officially collected statistics of injuries and deaths caused by cyclists show that there are very very very very very very few injuries and deaths are almost unknown.

RobertFoster

mickoc wrote: »

How can you assume the motorist hit the cyclist when you saw nothing. The victim was probably the motorist. I could walk around Dublin city centre for 1 hour and be guaranteed to be knocked down at least 3 times by cyclists

Christ, walking sounds dangerous. You should wear hi-vis, and a helmet, and maybe a bell around your neck.

Zyzz

mickoc wrote: »

How can you assume the motorist hit the cyclist when you saw nothing. The victim was probably the motorist. I could walk around Dublin city centre for 1 hour and be guaranteed to be knocked down at least 3 times by cyclists

At least 3 times? Thats pretty precise.

souter

rarnes1 wrote: »

You were a witness but saw nothing. It wouldn't be much use in court imo

This is getting a bit epistemological but I _witnessed_ the sound of the collision, then _witnessed_ the location of cyclist and car less than one second later, from which I would be able to _testify_ were due to the collision rather than subsequent movement.
Precisely how the cyclist came to be sprawled half way across the road several metres from where the car was stopped I would leave to the ladies and gentleman of the jury to determine.

Kaizersoze81

souter wrote: »

This is getting a bit epistemological but I _witnessed_ the sound of the collision, then _witnessed_ the location of cyclist and car less than one second later, from which I would be able to _testify_ were due to the collision rather than subsequent movement.
Precisely how the cyclist came to be sprawled half way across the road several metres from where the car was stopped I would leave to the ladies and gentleman of the jury to determine.

Testify ? Jury ? Yeah cos that's likely to happen for a minor RTA with no injuries....

Wishbone Ash

Qualitymark wrote: »

The officially collected statistics of injuries and deaths caused by cyclists show that there are very very very very very very few injuries and deaths are almost unknown.

+1

I can only recall one incident (widely reported at the time) about 10 years ago on Merrion Row or Baggott Street I think and involved a cycle courier and an elderly gentleman. (The courier was going the wrong way on a one way street IIRC).

imitation

Id say its a common occurance, I saw a cyclist take a nice bang when a passenger opened her door at a set of traffic lights without looking. Everybody just dusted themselves off and went on there own way, which was probably seemed reasonable as nobody looked injured apart from the wheel of the bike. Personally id call the cops if I was either party, it gives everybody a few minutes to figure out the damage and gives you the best footing if there is a claim to be made

To be honest Id say nothing will come of it now.

Zyzz

Lumen wrote: »

How did she hit him if she was stopped?

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

Mucco

I find the advice on this LFGSS thread quite useful:
https://www.lfgss.com/conversations/131099/

Obviously UK based, but much of it is relevant.

Shane Fitz

There is no legal obligation to call AGS unless there is either an injury to either party OR there has been an offence committed under the various Road Traffic Acts eg one or other vehicles isn't road legal. Same as you would if it were two cars etc.

CramCycle

Shane Fitz wrote: »

There is no legal obligation to call AGS unless there is either an injury to either party OR there has been an offence committed under the various Road Traffic Acts eg one or other vehicles isn't road legal. Same as you would if it were two cars etc.

If there has been a RTA/collision, then there is a strong chance that one or the other party has committed a breach of the RTA, the simplest being driving without due care or attention.

You should always ring the AGS, tell them what has happened. They might not send someone out but most likely will, most importantly, if you do not ring them or attempt to notify them at the earliest possible time, they possibly won't entertain it if you need a statement from them saying that it happened for insurance purposes.

If you shake hands and leave and then the other party changes their mind as you leave, they could claim you left the scene of an accident etc.

Always call the Gardai, if for nothing else than to cover yourself.

Wishbone Ash

CramCycle wrote: »

...You should always ring the AGS, tell them what has happened. They might not send someone out but most likely will, most importantly, if you do not ring them or attempt to notify them at the earliest possible time, they possibly won't entertain it if you need a statement from them saying that it happened for insurance purposes...

Just to clarify - they will expect you to call to a station to formally report it. They won't accept any report over the phone in my experience.

In the few incidents that I've been involved in, I suggested that both parties (i.e. myself and the motorist) go to the nearest Garda Station and report it (seperately).

If you're seriously injured, the Gardai may visit you in hospital to take a statement or may request that you visit a station in the following few days.

fillup

souter wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness

Ok soulter I see where ur coming from. The person doesn't have to have seen the event to be a witness

. But the OP has made the assumption that the motorist was at fault without having all the facts to hand.

That was my point.

tomasrojo

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I can only recall one incident (widely reported at the time) about 10 years ago on Merrion Row or Baggott Street I think and involved a cycle courier and an elderly gentleman. (The courier was going the wrong way on a one way street IIRC).

Only case I can recall too.

Don't think the man who fell (tripped over a kerb moving backwards when taken by surprise by courier going the wrong way) was elderly. Think he might have been in his fifties, max. Which is elderly for medical statisticians, maybe. Was a marathon runner too, if I recall correctly.

A tragic case all round, but I'll say no more as I remember it causing heated debate at the time.

souter

fillup wrote: »

Ok soulter I see where ur coming from. The person doesn't have to have seen the event to be a witness

. But the OP has made the assumption that the motorist was at fault without having all the facts to hand.

That was my point.

I am the OP. Unless the cyclist contrived to propel themselves sideways onto the front of the a stationary car half-way onto a main road, with sufficient velocity to make a loud bang and bounce themself several metres back, then I think it is safe to assume the motorist was at fault.

roverrules

souter wrote: »

I am the OP. Unless the cyclist contrived to propel themselves sideways onto the front of the a stationary car half-way onto a main road, with sufficient velocity to make a loud bang and bounce themself several metres back, then I think it is safe to assume the motorist was at fault.

I think most people who are disagreeing are taking that phrase "Safe to assume" as being the focus. Surely if you are a true witness then you won't be assuming anything

tomasrojo

roverrules wrote: »

Surely if you are a true witness then you won't be assuming anything

I have no legal expertise, but I assume even a witness who has prior assumptions is a good witness if they just truthfully answer questions put to them. If you start making stuff up to fit your prior assumptions then you're not a good witness.

CramCycle

tomasrojo wrote: »

I have no legal expertise, but I assume even a witness who has prior assumptions is a good witness if they just truthfully answer questions put to them. If you start making stuff up to fit your prior assumptions then you're not a good witness.

I have been a witness myself, you get alot of warnings about this. You should never state who was at fault. Just what you seen leading up to, during and after the accident.

For example, in Souters case. He would state where he was in relation to the accident, where he had looked and been just before the accident, had he seen either party before the accident, what he heard during the accident and what happened immediately after the accident i.e. position of vehicles (this is very important as if it goes to insurance or court, they will more than likely higher an engineer to put together the accident and give their view, based on statements, of whose story makes most sense if there is a dispute) and persons etc.

fillup

souter wrote: »

I am the OP. Unless the cyclist contrived to propel themselves sideways onto the front of the a stationary car half-way onto a main road, with sufficient velocity to make a loud bang and bounce themself several metres back, then I think it is safe to assume the motorist was at fault.

What is safe to assume is that the cyclist and car collided.
I don't know how, based on the info you've given you can assume that the motorist is at fault.
Maybe I'm missing something.

check_six

fillup wrote: »

What is safe to assume is that the cyclist and car collided.
I don't know how, based on the info you've given you can assume that the motorist is at fault.
Maybe I'm missing something.

I'm guessing they are looking at a collision between two vehicles where one was entering the main road from a minor road and the other was already on the main road. The vehicle on the main road has priority over the vehicle entering from the minor road.

I believe this is what the the OP is basing his assumptions on.

a148pro

I got knocked down the week before last. Car passed me out and turned left immediately in front of me across me. I managed to slam the brakes to avoid any injury but still hit him pretty hard and fell back to the ground. He didn't stop to check if I was OK but kindly came back at speed a minute or two later (he turned down a cul de sac) to berate and abuse me and tell me that he had 'been indicating all the way down the road' (behind me prior to passing me out at the turn). His girlfriend who was also calling me a fcking eejit kindly asked if there was any damage done to the car. Nice.

I am ashamed to say that while I managed to get a photo of the reg and the number of independent witness who stopped to check if I was ok I have yet to make a formal complaint to the Gardai. I did ring it in at the time to my local Garda station as the profile of this punter and the quality of the car he was driving didn't quite match. The speed at which he drove off led me to believe it was either stolen or, at the very least, wasn't taxed - it was a yellow reg.

But I think I will go up soon and make a complaint, FWIW. Don't want to let a very bad driver who has no consideration for other users continue like that. If he'd gotten out and apologized I'd have no problem. As it was I stopped arguing with him as I was afraid he'd get out of the car and show his girlfriend what a big man he was.

Complaint may go no-where in terms of a prosecution but at least there might be an entry on PULSE with the car reg and he might be stopped and tax and insurance checked.

monument

a148pro wrote: »

I got knocked down the week before last. Car passed me out and turned left immediately in front of me across me. I managed to slam the brakes to avoid any injury but still hit him pretty hard and fell back to the ground. He didn't stop to check if I was OK but kindly came back at speed a minute or two later (he turned down a cul de sac) to berate and abuse me and tell me that he had 'been indicating all the way down the road' (behind me prior to passing me out at the turn). His girlfriend who was also calling me a fcking eejit kindly asked if there was any damage done to the car. Nice.

I am ashamed to say that while I managed to get a photo of the reg and the number of independent witness who stopped to check if I was ok I have yet to make a formal complaint to the Gardai. I did ring it in at the time to my local Garda station as the profile of this punter and the quality of the car he was driving didn't quite match. The speed at which he drove off led me to believe it was either stolen or, at the very least, wasn't taxed - it was a yellow reg.

But I think I will go up soon and make a complaint, FWIW. Don't want to let a very bad driver who has no consideration for other users continue like that. If he'd gotten out and apologized I'd have no problem. As it was I stopped arguing with him as I was afraid he'd get out of the car and show his girlfriend what a big man he was.

Complaint may go no-where in terms of a prosecution but at least there might be an entry on PULSE with the car reg and he might be stopped and tax and insurance checked.

You should expect to be asked why the delay in reporting.