Would you want your team in Europa?

Shanotheslayer

So yesterday I was discussing with a few folks about the Europa League. As an Everton fan they seem to think the reason we did so bad was due to the Europa League.

I argued against saying we where poor all season and had nothing to do with Europa we just had a bad season and never really got going. Yes we probably would have had a bit better of a season but for what? To then get back into Europa. So I would think the team has to learn to play these extra games.

As they were mostly Pool/United fans I asked them if they didn't get top 4 would they want Europa.

Most said they didn't which I just don't seem to get.

The argument for not wanting Europa was :

'
Sh!t competition
Loss In Revenue
Tiredness/Travel
Effects the PL
'
No doubt there are probably more that people with say but these are the ones I remember off the top of my head.

In regards to the loss in Revenue, not sure if that's even correct? Altho the team can't play on a Saturday afterwords, surely the Europa game + the Sunday game (assuming it being shown on TV) would be an Increase? Along with ticket sales etc etc.

Tiredness - People seem to think that there is about 20 more games in Europa than CL. I asked before and someone said it was 2. Which is nothing really. Hardly will have a huge effect on a team. Also bare in mind, that's only 2 more games if both teams make it to the final.

The rest days are roughly the same, Play on Thursday and then Sunday or Monday. So i never understood that argument.

As for Travelling, I do agree to an extent that you could get shafted with fixtures miles away, but you could get just as bad in CL in a group stage.

Everton had to travel to Germany/France/Russia. Which would be quite a common group if a team was in the CL.

My main argument is. If a team isn't good enough to compete in Europa, what makes them think they are good enough to compete in CL? I hear people say, rather finish 8th-9th and get CL next season... Albeit It happend and they have a chance at top 4, but realistically had they got Europa, I still think they'd have had a chance at top 4 anyway.

Europa now has a chance of getting into the CL, so why teams wouldn't want to win it is beyond me.

Just interested in your thoughts. Would you rather finish outside the Europa spots?

CSF

I would kill for my team to be in the Europa.

rob316

Biggest problem for me is the CL rejects dropping into the last 32. Totally devalues the competition.

Playing on a Thursday is a big hindrance also.

They made the right move with the CL place for the winner but there is still so much wrong with it.

That_Guy

Yes.

If you're a manager/player who doesn't want to aim for the higher levels in the game then you shouldn't be part of football.

anncoates

There needs to be football version of First World Problems called Premier Problems

Icaras

My understanding, with no figures to back it up, is unless you are getting into the final it doesn't compare financially with the CL.
Also you need decent depth in the squad to have any chance. I don't think Everton has the depth this season and think this is where a lot of teams fall down.
I would love Newcastle to be pushing for a Europa place but know if we were in it we don't have the squad to make an impact. I think Liverpool or utd could do well in it next season if they put a focus on it.

greendom

Arsenal have a big squad and provided it was used wisely I'd want them to give it a real shot.

Shanotheslayer

Icaras wrote: »

My understanding, with no figures to back it up, is unless you are getting into the final it doesn't compare financially with the CL.

I understand this, but surely it's better financially to be in Europa than to be out of it?

Harry Palmr

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

I understand this, but surely it's better financially to be in Europa than to be out of it?

The grand total of UEFA money for winning the thing is about 15m now, but of course that's not the prize is it? Now you get a CL berth which is worth over 30 million. However if you're a team with top 4 ambitions and end up stretching your squad too much and finish 5th/6th/7th without winning it then its not worth doing - but you may not know that until its too late.

The EPL merit money is worth about 20m a year for a decent finish and the TV money more than twice that.

So the EL is just more bother than its worth for English clubs, which may explain why Spanish and Portuguese sides take it seriously. They need every penny.

Drexel

Any team with Champions League aspirations has to take the EL serious if they can't make top 4

noodler

jonny666 wrote: »

Any team with Champions League aspirations has to take the EL serious if they can't make top 4

It's the opposite for me.

The competition us a burden on league for. Way too many games.

That being said, the CL prize makes you think twice.

Shanotheslayer

noodler wrote: »

It's the opposite for me.

The competition us a burden on league for. Way too many games.

That being said, the CL prize makes you think twice.

I've already stated it's 2 more games. How is that 'way too many'?

AdamD

In recent years there has been a trend where teams haven't been taking it seriously in order to concentrate on getting into the CL. Then once they do they struggle badly as they aren't used to playing 2 proper matches a week. if you want to be a CL team, get used to playing the extra games.

super_furry

As a Shamrock Rovers supporter absolutely, as a Liverpool supporter absolutely not. Think teams with genuine Champions League ambitions should almost treat it the same way Arsenal did the League Cup - have an entirely different squad of youth players/reserves.

Shanotheslayer

super_furry wrote: »

As a Shamrock Rovers supporter absolutely, as a Liverpool supporter absolutely not. Think teams with genuine Champions League ambitions should almost treat it the same way Arsenal did the League Cup - have an entirely different squad of youth players/reserves.

Champions League ambitions for a team who got knocked out to Besiktas in Europa and failed to get out of CL group. If you fail to get CL then surely that team isn't goid enough and those players should get used to European football and the effect it will have on them.

I can see why every team would want to have CL as there ambitions, as clearly that's the objective for top 4. But to then dismiss the EL because a team wasn't good enough to get CL, is crazy.

Also, lol at comparing the League cup to the Europa league.

LuckyLloyd

If you can't compete in the EL on top of your EPL commitments why exactly would you think you'll be able to cut it in the CL? Premiership fans have small minds on this topic.

Ferris_Bueller

Can't understand why some fans wouldn't want to be in this competition, maybe if you support a club such as Wigan who have to worry about relegation then it could be understood that the team could do without the extra games, but for clubs like Liverpool, Spurs or Arsenal I don't get that argument. If you ultimately want to be in the CL you will need to get used to playing these extra games, and there is only one extra round in the Europa League than there is in the Champions League so it's not as if it's a massive amount of extra games.

The likes of Atletico Madrid and Porto have shown in the past few years that the Europa League can be used successfully to prepare for a run in the Champions League. Some fans definitely seem too focused on their clubs bank balance rather than winning trophies.

Redmen Rafalution

Absolutely, I think PL teams are stupidly insular in their approach to it.

If nothing else, being competitive in the latter stages of the EL on a consistent basis will elevate the status of the club and possibly make it a more attractive proposition for potential signings. A club could really take advantage of consistent performances in the EL and use it to gain an edge over their domestic counterparts.

I don't know why PL teams have such a superiority complex about it. It's good enough for big clubs like Sevilla, Benfica, Atletico Madrid, Bilbao, Porto, Zenit, etc., yet English clubs generally turn their noses up at the thought of treating it seriously. There are a few exceptions like Chelsea in 2013 but not many.

dfx-

If you have a problem with squads or the amount of games, maybe you're not cut out for Europe. Sides who actively avoid the Europa League or 'try not to win' are usually stupid clubs who are after the CL or PL gravy train.

You really need seasons of Europa League behind you before moving on to the Champions League.

Teams who want to skip it are going nowhere fast and looking for a quick CL buck which they will ultimately waste.

Giggsy11

Last season when we missed CL, I wanted us to finish in Europa places. It gives enough game time for all the players in the squad and also there are more open games than in CL. The coverage is bit dull but the games are good.

Also re league impact, how can team compete in CL and League but not Europa and League?

noodler

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If you can't compete in the EL on top of your EPL commitments why exactly would you think you'll be able to cut it in the CL? Premiership fans have small minds on this topic.

Because you have two more games in the EL, games are always on a Thursday (which means you always plays on a Sunday). If you were in the CL, your games would be evenly divided between Tuesday and Wednesday which helps with recoup time. Also because the leagues with lower coefficients are generally further away from the UK as well.

They need to get rid of the group stage.

I would rather Liverpool not be in it next season - I don't think many players you would be looking to sign with the CL in mind would see a club's qualficaton for the tournament as massive plus.

Harry Palmr

noodler wrote: »

Because you have two more games in the EL, those games are always on a Thursday (which means you always plays on a Sunday). If you were in the CL, your games would be evenly divided between Tuesday and Wednesday which helps with recoup time. Also because the leagues with lower coefficients are generally further away from the UK as well.

They need to get rid of the group stage.

I would rather Liverpool not be in it next season - I don't think many players you would be looking to sign with the CL in mind would see a club's qualficaton for the tournament as massive plus.

Then it would be the UEFA Cup again and worth playing for!

citytillidie

Champions League = 13 games to win
Europa League = 15 games to win

The only big difference is the places in eastern Europe in Europa League you may not be able to get to and from as easy as you can in the Champions League.

Europa League has been a better knock out competition in the past few years compared to the Champions League.

People here have fallen for the UK medias hate of it because they have not heard of some of the teams in it.

Maybe change the games from Thursday - Sunday to Thursday - Monday

Godge

noodler wrote: »

Because you have two more games in the EL, games are always on a Thursday (which means you always plays on a Sunday). If you were in the CL, your games would be evenly divided between Tuesday and Wednesday which helps with recoup time. Also because the leagues with lower coefficients are generally further away from the UK as well.

They need to get rid of the group stage.

I would rather Liverpool not be in it next season - I don't think many players you would be looking to sign with the CL in mind would see a club's qualficaton for the tournament as massive plus.

The team that finishes fourth in the EPL plays two extra games in the Champions League - the qualifiers.

I haven't seen that being an issue preventing Arsenal from qualifying for the Champions League.

Both Liverpool and Spurs have been found out in recent seasons when they have not been able to qualify for the Champions League two seasons in a row as they are not used to the extra matches. True, Liverpool have given themselves a chance this season by exiting at the group stages of the CL and then first round of the EL.

I believe Liverpool and Spurs would be better off on a good run to the final in the EL - it would show their fans and their players that they can compete in Europe.

noodler

Godge wrote: »

The team that finishes fourth in the EPL plays two extra games in the Champions League - the qualifiers.

I haven't seen that being an issue preventing Arsenal from qualifying for the Champions League.

Yeah, but there are other reasons addressed above!

Outkast_IRE

A big thing to remember too, is that with the Europa league there are a few teams you can get drawn against and they are located so far away from Europe its ridiculous, you end up sending the squad almost halfway around the world on a thursday night. With another match on sunday.

Yes this can potentially happen in CL too, but it seems to occur far less often.

Omackeral

As a Bohs fan, hearing the Champions League theme tune ring out at Dalymount feels amazing. It feels right. None of that pauper Europa League crap for us thanks very much. Who wants too see minnows like Villareal and Werder Bremen anyway?

5starpool

I would much rather Liverpool be in the EL (and take it seriously) than not in Europe at all. It presents challenges, but so do any extra set of games whether that is 2 deep domestic cup runs or the CL. I think it would be better though if it was switched to Tuesday/Wednesday instead of Thursday.

I know UEFA don't want the games clashing with the CL, but they could have the games spread between the 2 days and all kick off at 5.45 as a warm up to the CL main event, so to speak. They already play half the games at 6.05 on Thursday anyhow, so it wouldn't be much of a difference really, although 5.45 isn't a good time in general for a midweek game to kick off at, but it would be preferable to the alternative imo.

ArmaniJeanss

citytillidie wrote: »

Champions League = 13 games to win
Europa League = 15 games to win

The extra two games are awkwardly timed though - during the time that the CL teams play 2 legs of their L16 tie the EL teams will play 4 games, the L32 and L16 ties. This is in Feb/March, an unwelcome time to have the extra games as you will still be generally close enough to Top4 for it to be a worthwhile target also.
For the English teams its also the FA Cup/FA Cup replay time of year.

So I don't think its as simple as saying 'two extra games', its 'two extra games at the nut worst time'.

UnitedIrishman

Big issue with the Europa League is the amount of teams in the competition proper although I've the same issue with the Champions League. I'm fairly sure I say it every time this discussion comes up but UEFA had a good thing going when the Cup Winners Cup was there and merging the two together has made a bit of a meal of the two competitions. Then there was also the fact that the two competitions were straight knockout which was brilliant because there was ties that mattered to sides earlier in the season.

To answer the initial question, I think every side should strive to be in Europe as much as possible. Last season with United I didn't want us to be in the EL mainly because I didn't think we had a large/good enough squad at the end of last season to compete on two fronts when Champions League was a necessity for us this year for a number of reasons.

B17G

A team that aspires to regular CL football, needs to be in the EL if it falls short of CL qualification. One big reason is to get used to the regular 2 game a week scenario you get from September onwards, plus the manager gets experience in this regard in how to manage his team. As a Liverpool fan I feel we need to get this experience after our disastrous form pre-Christmas in both the PL & CL.

Buford T. Justice XIX

rob316 wrote: »

Biggest problem for me is the CL rejects dropping into the last 32. Totally devalues the competition.

Playing on a Thursday is a big hindrance also.

They made the right move with the CL place for the winner but there is still so much wrong with it.

noodler wrote: »

Because you have two more games in the EL, games are always on a Thursday (which means you always plays on a Sunday). If you were in the CL, your games would be evenly divided between Tuesday and Wednesday which helps with recoup time. Also because the leagues with lower coefficients are generally further away from the UK as well.

They need to get rid of the group stage.

I would rather Liverpool not be in it next season - I don't think many players you would be looking to sign with the CL in mind would see a club's qualficaton for the tournament as massive plus.

I would love to qualify for the Europa League since it seems Liverpool won't qualify for the CL. The big down side, as mentioned before, is the thursday night games and again the following sunday.

I agree with noodler on the warm up game for the CL games, would make it more attractive for many teams to get used to a similar CL type schedule while becoming more attractive to players and building the mentality to play in europe.

Thursday night games are a pain if you are in the EPL, with shorter rest periods and sunday only games.

citytillidie

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

The extra two games are awkwardly timed though - during the time that the CL teams play 2 legs of their L16 tie the EL teams will play 4 games, the L32 and L16 ties. This is in Feb/March, an unwelcome time to have the extra games as you will still be generally close enough to Top4 for it to be a worthwhile target also.
For the English teams its also the FA Cup/FA Cup replay time of year.

So I don't think its as simple as saying 'two extra games', its 'two extra games at the nut worst time'.

The champions league games are spaced out over those 4 weeks so both comps will be on the same week for Quarter and Semi finals, and also maximise tv money for UEFA.

Only thing would be either cut out replays in the cup or cut the premier league to 18 teams

citytillidie

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I would love to qualify for the Europa League since it seems Liverpool won't qualify for the CL. The big down side, as mentioned before, is the thursday night games and again the following sunday.

I agree with noodler on the warm up game for the CL games, would make it more attractive for many teams to get used to a similar CL type schedule while becoming more attractive to players and building the mentality to play in europe.

Thursday night games are a pain if you are in the EPL, with shorter rest periods and sunday only games.

Only thing there is teams from same city or teams in Europe who share grounds are drawn at home for the same time, can you really say to Inter or AC Milan you have to swap legs and lose potential home advantage for the 2nd leg?

Hammer Archer

Pfff when UCD are in next season's Europa League we'll have to play 23 games to win it.

Wichita Lineman

As a Liverpool fan I'd rather we were in the Europa League than nothing at all but I do worry about the negative impact it's had on other Premiership teams thus far.

Buford T. Justice XIX

citytillidie wrote: »

Only thing there is teams from same city or teams in Europe who share grounds are drawn at home for the same time, can you really say to Inter or AC Milan you have to swap legs and lose potential home advantage for the 2nd leg?

CL teams getting the advantage would seem to be the fair option as it is the premier competition so the EL team would forfeit the home leg advantage on the very rare occasions it would occur.

Sephiroth_dude

Yes but I think it should be a 64 team knock out competition that takes place after christmas,scrap the group stage part of it.

flas

Maybe the negative effect on the epl teams is when they realise what level they are really at and it batters their confidence, these players are told constantly they are the best in the world and best league in the world and they go to belguim or turkey on a Thursday night and they realise they are no better than the opposition!

artanevilla

Sephiroth_dude wrote: »

Yes but I think it should be a 64 team knock out competition that takes place after christmas,scrap the group stage part of it.

It's the group stage that generates so much cash for the smaller teams though.

miroslavklose

Rovers getting into the Europa groups was an amazing experience even though it was a level too high for us. I'd love to get back to them days. Some clubs' fans don't know how good they have it.

Beefy78

People saying "it is only an extra two games" miss the point. It is only an extra two games compared to the Champions League but that Champions League clubs tend to have the squads who can cope with those games. For a mid-sized club it puts a huge drain on their playing resources.

As a football supporter I think it is sad that English clubs don't go all out to win the thing. I'd love to see my Club in it. But from a manager's perspective I can understand why it often doesn't get priority.

inforfun

For the last 10 years i couldnt care less whether Feyenoord ended up in Europe or not as they kept running into the worst draws possible.
And then i am not talking about strength of opponents because a team from Holland will end up against a stronger opponent sooner or later.

No, it was the almost unbreakable series of teams from Eastern Europe they were up against. Teams no one ever had heard of but showed up with 5 or 6 South American mercenaries so you ended up on the losing end of a draw that wasnt attractive in the first place.

This season however they ended up against a some attractive opposition in Sevilla, Roma, Standard Liege and that brought back the magic of European nights of the past a bit.

The thing is though, Dutch teams getting through CL qualifiers is something of the past the way UEFA has set up the draw for the last qualifiers before the group stages as Dutch teams will always end up against a team from England, Spain, Italy or Germany in that round. (Feyenoord would have been up against Arsenal if they had gone past Besiktas)

The system is rigged and it might suit the big boys but it has robbed European football surprises in the UEFA cup and to a lesser degree CL.

Cup football = knock out football from round 1 and not only after it has been made sure the "chosen few" are in the last 16.

That way we also will not hear those cry baby stories of teams/players being tired from October onwards.

Of course those same clubs go on a world tour after their leagues end and again as preparation for the new season.

Benimar

Yes, I'd want my team in it and to take it seriously. As a fan I want to see them try to win anything that is available, yes including the Capital One Cup.

As others have said, if the aim is to compete in the CL, then surely a team should take the EL seriously as it prepares for the step up. If they can't handle the extra workload then it doesn't bode well for CL participation.

The extra games only become an issue in February anyway. 4th place Arsenal played 2 more European games than 5th placed Everton before Christmas and, if both had got to their respective finals, would end up playing 15 European games each.

As for playing Thursday-Sunday, so what? Its no different to Wednesday-Saturday. I can never understand why Thursday-Sunday is deemed so difficult, is the air more rarefied on Sundays or something :eek:

inforfun

Benimar wrote: »

As for playing Thursday-Sunday, so what? Its no different to Wednesday-Saturday. I can never understand why Thursday-Sunday is deemed so difficult, is the air more rarefied on Sundays or something :eek:

Read this (pdf alert)

While you are right, Wed - Sat is the same as Thu - Sun as it comes to days rest, the reality is that in most leagues EL teams will have to play their next match on sunday. While CL teams hardly ever play the saturdays following a wednesday match.

Was kind of a big issue in Holland this season when Feyenoord, Ajax and PSV progressed to the knock out stages.
All 3 had to play their matches on Sunday from that moment on and certainly Fox werent too pleased with that as the viewing figures were rather bad on Fridays and Saturdays without any of these 3

noodler

Benimar wrote: »

As for playing Thursday-Sunday, so what? Its no different to Wednesday-Saturday. I can never understand why Thursday-Sunday is deemed so difficult, is the air more rarefied on Sundays or something :eek:

I thought this had been addressed.

But in the CL, half the time your games will be on a Tuesday so you get a longer break. Also, there is generally greater travel associated with EL away games.

elefant

It hasn't really been an issue for some of the less prestigious Spanish teams over the past few seasons. Both Atletico and Sevilla have performed excellently in both the league and Europa League, and neither of them have massive squad depth.

Teams seem happy enough to use its 'lack of importance' and resultant disinterest to justify either not being good enough in their domestic competition to qualify for it, or not good enough to step up once they actually do qualify.

Backstreet Moyes

The Everton one is puzzling.

They are too good to get relegated and not good enough to get into the top 4. If fans don't want Europe whats the aim an 8th place finish each season.

You qualify for the Europa league but then want to rest players to concentrate on the league to try get into Europe the following season.

Everton have a far greater chance of winning the Europa league than breaking the top 4.

Madness how any Everton fan could want to rest players in Europe.

Mr.H

If we miss out on top 4 (likely) I want Liverpool to get EL

Give our squad experience in Europe and try to get them use to playing foreign teams. If you can win the EL then you get a CL spot as well as winning an actual trophy. As has been mentioned on here already its only 2 games more than the CL. Sure the cash inst great but in terms of experience and an actual trophy I cant see why any football team wouldn't want to win it.

In 50 years time we wont be saying how great it was that Monaco Anzi Malaga had so much money for those few years. Its the counting of actual trophies we talk about.

After all who is sitting around talking about how much money Liverpool spent in the 70's and 80's? or United in the 90's and 00's? fact is noone cares how much your team has to spend. They care about how much you have won.

Dortmund, Athletico Madrid, Valencia, Juventus, Arsenal and almost Liverpool (but didnt) have won titles in the last 15 years and not been the biggest spenders in their divisions that particular year.

Money matters in football evidentially. United had an awful season last year and spent huge to get a top 4 back. Chelsea did the same to put a great title challenge together. But sometimes you dont need to spend a lot to actually gain ground. It may take a lot more time to do it but it certainly can be done.

Benimar

noodler wrote: »

I thought this had been addressed.

But in the CL, half the time your games will be on a Tuesday so you get a longer break. Also, there is generally greater travel associated with EL away games.

Teams that play Tuesday play Saturday-Tuesday, so (barring a couple of hours difference) its the same, just that the League game comes first.

There have been times when CL teams played Saturday -Tues/Wed-Saturday and EL teams have played Saturday-Thursday-Sunday and yet the EL is the one that tires players out according to some.

Chelsea played in Maribor on a Wednesday night and kicked off at Anfield at 12.45 on the Saturday, so quick turnarounds happen in the CL too.

Mr.H

Benimar wrote: »

Teams that play Tuesday play Saturday-Tuesday, so (barring a couple of hours difference) its the same, just that the League game comes first.

There have been times when CL teams played Saturday -Tues/Wed-Saturday and EL teams have played Saturday-Thursday-Sunday and yet the EL is the one that tires players out according to some.

Chelsea played in Maribor on a Wednesday night and kicked off at Anfield at 12.45 on the Saturday, so quick turnarounds happen in the CL too.

Agreed

Its just an excuse used to justify saying that the prize money isn't worth it.

Fact is I want my team to win everything from the League cup and FA cup to the Premiership and Champions League. If We are in the Europa or the shield games then I wanna win those too.

How do you measure your teams success?? The amount the are worth on the stock market or how many trophies they won??

Its simple logic that is all too often lost on football fans.

Leave the clubs accountants deal with finances while we deal with supporting the team in EVERY competition