A chance to scrap the Angelus - Nutella, Croissants and Pineapples.

lazygal

frostyjacks wrote: »

I think you're confusing Angelus (the devotion) with The Angelus (tv and radio programme). They are two separate things.

Remarkable then that its broadcast with the Angelus bells, at the times Catholics say the Angelus if they are two separate things.

Peregrinus

SW wrote: »

Might want to tell RTE that

Angelus: a Roman Catholic devotion commemorating the Incarnation of Jesus and including the Hail Mary, said at morning, noon, and sunset.

Except that what RTE broadcasts, and calls the angelus, is not the "devotion commemorating the Incarnation of Jesus and including the Hail Mary"; it's the sound of a church bell ringing. You must know this.

They chose it, in fact, precisely because it wasn't a prayer, but a call to prayer, which could be interpreted as the listener chose. If I recall correctly, there was a campaign at the time to get them to broadcast a daily rosary, which they felt would be inappropriate.

According to Wikipedia, both the Church of Ireland and the Presbyterian Church in Ireland have supported the continued broadcasting of the angelus, which suggests that they, at least, don't see it as an exercise in Catholic imperialism.

SpaceTime

And of course the Church of Ireland & Presbyterians are radically different with their very slightly different bells.

Of course the C of I in particular would support this. They're more or less the Catholic Church with a slight tweak here and there.

Same bells, architecture, most of the same prayers, similar ceremonies ... In fact you'd find most of their ceremonies relatively similar to the point you'd be hard pressed to tell which was which.

I'd hardly reckon the fact that two other remarkably similar churches supported their closest relatives as meaning that the RTE policy is right.

It's a bit like asking Apple, Google & Microsoft for their opinions on Irish tax policy ... You'll hardly get much criticism!

How do atheists, non religious feel? How do Irish Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews & other non Christians feel?

Huntergonzo

The angelus is a catholic call to prayer though, denying that is just petty and it's not even an interesting debating point. But I can see why RTE refuses to be neutral and get rid of it, more older people tend to watch RTE 1, Catholicism would be very popular among old people, old people are also very fond of voting.........DON'T piss off old people!

Peregrinus

SpaceTime wrote: »

Bear in mind that a lot of people in Britain feel BBC is far too heavily dosed with religion and also one flavour of religion mostly too.


The fact that BBC spends a considerable % of its schedule pondering its religious beliefs doesn't make what RTE does right . . .

Gosh, you're gliding rather smoothly from "I can think of no other public service broadcaster . . ." to dismissing the relevance of a prominent public service broadcaster that you probably know quite well.

Similarly, you glide rather smoothly from "the angelus is a Catholic devotion" to "of course the CofI and the Presbyterians would support" (despite the fact that neither of them has any tradition of saying this devotion). Yes, they would, spacetime, despite the fact that (as huntergonzo rightly points out) it is a characteristically Catholic practice. They are more broadminded and tolerant than you, and don't object to the representation in public service broadcasting of traditions which are not their own.

I'm not saying that broadcasting the angelus must be right if it's similar to something the BBC does. (In fact, I'm not saying that broadcasting the angelus is right at all.) I'm saying that arguments which begin "I know of no other public service broadcaster . . ." are not terribly well-researched or terribly persuasive. There may be good reasons to oppose the broadcast of the angelus, but this isn't one of them.

I get that the ringing of the bells (whether as a call to attend service, or as a call to say the angelus) is basically a religious exercise. That isn't enough, in my opinion, to establish that a public service broadcaster with a mandate for religious programming shouldn't be carrying it. There may be a case for saying that they shouldn't carry it, but the case has to be made, and it has to be credible.

There's been a lot of people posting to say that they find the broadcast strange or annoying but, hey, a good deal of what RTE broadcasts annoys me; that's not an argument for banning it. And there have been posters claiming that the broadcast is "an insult to secularism"; it seems to me that if they think that's a reason for taking it off the airwaves they're looking for the secularists' equivalent of a blasphemy law. All religious broadcasting is an insult to secularism; secularists have to toughen up and not demand that the law protect them from having their feelings outraged.

frostyjacks

lazygal wrote: »

Remarkable then that its broadcast with the Angelus bells, at the times Catholics say the Angelus if they are two separate things.

Well, they are two separate things. It is possible for two or more things to share the same name. If you were asked to pick up roses from the shop, would you get chocolates or flowers? Or wonder how remarkable it is that they share the same name?

SpaceTime

Peregrinus wrote: »

Gosh, you're gliding rather smoothly from "I can think of no other public service broadcaster . . ." to dismissing the relevance of a prominent public service broadcaster that you probably know quite well.

I'm not saying that broadcasting the angelus must be right if it's similar to something the BBC does. (In fact, I'm not saying that broadcasting the angelus is right at all.) I'm saying that arguments which begin "I know of no other public service broadcaster . . ." are not terribly well-researched or terribly persuasive. There may be good reasons to oppose the broadcast of the angelus, but this isn't one of them.

I get that the ringing of the bells (whether as a call to attend service, or as a call to say the angelus) is basically a religious exercise. That isn't enough, in my opinion, to establish that a public service broadcaster with a mandate for religious programming shouldn't be carrying it. There may be a case for saying that they shouldn't carry it, but the case has to be made, and it has to be credible. There's been a lot of people posting to say that they find the broadcast strange or annoying but, hey, a good deal of what RTE broadcasts annoys me; that's not an argument for banning it. And there have been posters claiming that the broadcast is "an insult to secularism"; it seems to me that if they think that's a reason for taking it off the airwaves they're looking for the secularists' equivalent of a blasphemy law. All religious broadcasting is an insult to secularism; secularists have to toughen up and not demand that others protect them from having their feelings outraged.

I still don't think the BBC slips in a "quick pray" dressed up as a pause for reflection twice a day before the news!

I do think the BBC has far too much religious programming though and I don't agree with how it operates in that regard.

I've never seen any other PSB do what RTE does with calls to prayer though. I think RTE has taken the BBC model and out religioused even the Beeb by actually branding itself as religious.

The Angelus on TV is practically merged into the pre news ident package (station branding)

For a decades a cross also formed part of RTE's logo too.

It's a very, very odd broadcaster by western standards.

Huntergonzo

SpaceTime wrote: »

How do atheists, non religious feel? How do Irish Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews & other non Christians feel?

Suppose how we've always felt by what is made patently clear by the state = you're state is catholic, catholics will get all the preferences because of their credulity, we are NOT a neutral state and if don't like it f off!!

Thank you mother Ireland for being so inclusive.

lazygal

frostyjacks wrote: »

Well, they are two separate things. It is possible for two or more things to share the same name. If you were asked to pick up roses from the shop, would you get chocolates or flowers? Or wonder how remarkable it is that they share the same name?

If I was asked to pick the Catholic call to prayer, I'd probably pick the angelus. RTE dressing it up as some sort of moment of reflection for everyone, catholic or not, doesn't change what it broadcasts, that is, church bells of the Catholic call to prayer at the times Catholics would pray.

SpaceTime

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Suppose how we've always felt by what is made patently clear by the state = you're state is catholic, catholics will get all the preferences because of their credulity, we are NOT a neutral state and if don't like it f off!!

Thank you mother Ireland for being so inclusive.

Good thing I'm emigrating so!

Ireland has always made me feel like I'm unwelcome and I was bloody born here!

Delirium

Peregrinus wrote: »

Except that what RTE broadcasts, and calls the angelus, is not the "devotion commemorating the Incarnation of Jesus and including the Hail Mary"; it's the sound of a church bell ringing. You must know this.

They chose it, in fact, precisely because it wasn't a prayer, but a call to prayer, which could be interpreted as the listener chose. If I recall correctly, there was a campaign at the time to get them to broadcast a daily rosary, which they felt would be inappropriate.

According to Wikipedia, both the Church of Ireland and the Presbyterian Church in Ireland have supported the continued broadcasting of the angelus, which suggests that they, at least, don't see it as an exercise in Catholic imperialism.

The point was that the claim that it (the Angelus) wasn't a call to prayer is wrong. It's called the Angelus, which obviously is aimed at Catholics.

lazygal

SpaceTime wrote: »

Good thing I'm emigrating so!

Ireland has always made me feel like I'm unwelcome and I was bloody born here!

I used to be quite religious as a child. I sang in the church choir and I was the first female altar server in our local church. I took the prep for sacraments really seriously. I think this is all because I was a compliant child who wanted to do well in school and doing well in religion was part of that. Now I've completely left all that and have children of my own who we're not raising in any faith I've come to realise how damaging that was. I still remember the guilt of confession and having to remember what to say and when. I remember how much time we wasted in school on art and music for the sacraments, the month before was a write-off in terms of trips to the church as well. Now I've stepped outside all that and I'm married to someone who's done the same, we don't quite know where we fit in. Especially when our friends, most if not all of whom say they had church weddings to please their parents, or don't really believe the less savoury teachings, or only baptise and do communions and confirmation because its the done thing, don't seem to be at all bothered by the church control of schools.
My husband was recently told, in all seriousness by two friends in the pub, that they couldn't understand how we would raise our children with morals given that we haven't baptised them and might not send them to a religious school. Attitudes like that, from people our age, who've seen and grown up with the abuse scandals and all the rest, really make me wonder.

SpaceTime

Just in case anyone is in any doubt about RTE's religious roots

The original logo:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/02/RTE_Logo_1961.jpg/220px-RTE_Logo_1961.jpg

lazygal

SpaceTime wrote: »

Just in case anyone is in any doubt about RTE's religious roots

The original logo:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/02/RTE_Logo_1961.jpg/220px-RTE_Logo_1961.jpg

Pah, that could be a symbol for all religions and none. Everyone knows Roman torture devices like crucifixes are symbols the non religious can embrace too.

Huntergonzo

SpaceTime wrote: »

Good thing I'm emigrating so!

Ireland has always made me feel like I'm unwelcome and I was bloody born here!

Well unless you buy into the state run and promoted national superstition that is Catholicism then Ireland won't feel all that welcoming. I'm gonna stick around though, be a thorn in the side :-)

lazygal

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/a-misc/prayer.htm

I suppose this is an inclusive thing too.

Peregrinus

SW wrote: »

The point was that the claim that it (the Angelus) wasn't a call to prayer is wrong. It's called the Angelus, which obviously is aimed at Catholics.

It is a call to prayer, and it is a distinctively Catholic call to prayer.

The question is, why should a Catholic call to prayer be off-limits for a public service broadcaster with a mandate to provide religious programming?

It's not as though RTE broadcast only Catholic material in its religious programming; they broadcast non-Catholic and non-Christian and secular/humanist material as well. And while you could possibly make the argument that their religious broadcasting is still unbalanced, and Catholicism receives more attention than its place in Irish society warrants, given its place in Irish society that would be quite a tough argument to make out. You certainly can't make the case by saying "Angelus! Twice a day!" in tones of increasing outrage.

FWIW, as I have already indicated, I have seen no evidence at all that any of the minority religious traditions in Ireland object to the angelus broadcast; all the objections come from secular/atheist perspectives.

That doesn't invalidate them, of course. But, still, to have traction they need to be grounded in some reasoning which will appeal to people who are not themselves secular or atheist; otherwise they just boil down to a demand for privilege for this group. So far, I don't see those arguments being offered.

It seems to me you either have to make an argument that says that religious broadcasting should be banned - a tough ask, I think - or an argument which says that this particular broadcast is not an acceptable form of religious broadcasting. "It's Catholic!" plainly doesn't cut it; lots of religious broadcasting is a distinctive expression of some particular religious perspective.

SpaceTime

lazygal wrote: »

I used to be quite religious as a child. I sang in the church choir and I was the first female altar server in our local church. I took the prep for sacraments really seriously. I think this is all because I was a compliant child who wanted to do well in school and doing well in religion was part of that. Now I've completely left all that and have children of my own who we're not raising in any faith I've come to realise how damaging that was. I still remember the guilt of confession and having to remember what to say and when. I remember how much time we wasted in school on art and music for the sacraments, the month before was a write-off in terms of trips to the church as well. Now I've stepped outside all that and I'm married to someone who's done the same, we don't quite know where we fit in. Especially when our friends, most if not all of whom say they had church weddings to please their parents, or don't really believe the less savoury teachings, or only baptise and do communions and confirmation because its the done thing, don't seem to be at all bothered by the church control of schools.
My husband was recently told, in all seriousness by two friends in the pub, that they couldn't understand how we would raise our children with morals given that we haven't baptised them and might not send them to a religious school. Attitudes like that, from people our age, who've seen and grown up with the abuse scandals and all the rest, really make me wonder.

My relative has been sent a christening robe and given a guilt tripping about how they're "abandoning family tradition".

The pushy relative in question wants to take photos of their baby in a christening robe so the baby will have photos and won't feel "left out".

He's laughing it off but his wife is really, really put out by it.

They're getting snide comments about this mostly from people in their 40s - 60s

There's a lot of "Iona" types out there. They seem totally reasonable until they go off on a rant like that. Then you start to realise a large % of the country is somewhat brainwashed and very determined to force their views on others and that they think it's "for your own good".

I really dislike the implication being made that by not baptising their kid that it's some sort of neglect / political stance.

The people making these comments also seem to think it's fine for two athiests to go to a church and pretend they're Catholics to get a baptism cert.

They've even put me forward as God father!!!?!!

Can you just imagine the outrage if a man Irish Catholic family were told by a Protestant in England ; oh sure why don't you just change to C of E? It'd be far easier and your little girl could go to Sunday school with all the other *normal* children...

There'd be newspaper articles but somehow it non religious types here in Ireland are supposed to politely put up with this cr@p!

ush

Is not about filling their quota of domestic production?

Peregrinus

ush wrote: »

Is not about filling their quota of domestic production?

At two minutes a day, on one radio channel and one TV channel, I don't see that it would make a material contribution. (But it is two minutes of broadcasting that's cheap as chips to produce.)

lazygal

SpaceTime wrote: »

My relative has been sent a christening robe and given a guilt tripping about how they're "abandoning family tradition".

The relative in question wants to take photos of their baby in a christening robe so the baby will have photos and won't feel "left out".

He's laughing it off but his wife is really, really put out by it.

They're getting snide comments about this mostly from people in their 40s - 60s

There's a lot of "Iona" types out there. They seem totally reasonable until they go off on a rant like that. Then you start to realise a large % of the country is somewhat brainwashed and very determined to force their views on others and that they think it's "for your own good".

I really dislike the implication being made that by not baptising their kid that it's some sort of neglect / political stance.

The people making these comments also seem to think it's fine for two athiests to go to a church and pretend they're Catholics to get a baptism cert.

They've even put me forward as God father!!!?!!

So much this to this. We've been asked to be Godparents, and the people who asked genuinely couldn't understand why we said no. They tried the old 'its not religious, its a Nice Day Out' line. I think they thought we were being Militant Atheists and Making a Stand and wondered why we couldn't do the usual go along with things for a quiet life thing.
Himself is laid back but he was genuinely upset when two good mates implied we're not doing a good job as parents because we chose to leave religion behind. These are guys who've seen the abuse scandals over 20 years and attended our wedding, yet they think its ok to tell him that our children won't have morals because we don't indoctrinate them.

Maximus Alexander

Sam Kade wrote: »

It's only a minute ffs, who watches rte at 6pm anyway?

Ah well in that case, we should follow it with a minute of Satan sodomising Jesus. Sure it'll only be a minute and nobody will be watching.

lazygal

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Ah well in that case, we should follow it with a minute of Satan sodomising Jesus. Sure it'll only be a minute and nobody will be watching.

Or someone drawing a quick Mohammad sketch. Sure who'll watch that while they're waiting for the new?

SpaceTime

I just find its thr hypocrisy of it that gets to me.
On the one hand they just want to "have a nice day out" and are willing to bully you for not complying.

Yet they're quite happy if you fake it...

Yet if the shoe were on the other foot and someone in an English primary school dared tell them they should say just send their kids to Sunday school to fit in I'm sure they'd be out with placards!

But because it's just lovely Irish Catholic stuff sure it's grand and why are you even offended at all?

Delirium

Peregrinus wrote: »

It is a call to prayer, and it is a distinctively Catholic call to prayer.

The question is, why should a Catholic call to prayer be off-limits for a public service broadcaster with a mandate to provide religious programming?

It's not as though RTE broadcast only Catholic material in its religious programming; they broadcast non-Catholic and non-Christian and secular/humanist material as well. And while you could possibly make the argument that their religious broadcasting is still unbalanced, and Catholicism receives more attention than its place in Irish society warrants, given its place in Irish society that would be quite a tough argument to make out. You certainly can't make the case by saying "Angelus! Twice a day!" in tones of increasing outrage.

FWIW, as I have already indicated, I have seen no evidence at all that any of the minority religious traditions in Ireland object to the angelus broadcast; all the objections come from secular/atheist perspectives.

That doesn't invalidate them, of course. But, still, to have traction they need to be grounded in some reasoning which will appeal to people who are not themselves secular or atheist; otherwise they just boil down to a demand for privilege for this group. So far, I don't see those arguments being offered.

It seems to me you either have to make an argument that says that religious broadcasting should be banned - a tough ask, I think - or an argument which says that this particular broadcast is not an acceptable form of religious broadcasting. "It's Catholic!" plainly doesn't cut it; lots of religious broadcasting is a distinctive expression of some particular religious perspective.

How frequent are the other religious broadcasts? There is the twice daily Angelus and the Sunday service ( I haven't checked to see if the celebrants of the mass are always RCC priests so it may cover Christianity as a whole).

RTE doesn't do daily call to prayer for Muslims, nor does it broadcast mass/services for other faiths to the best of my knowledge so I'm not seeing anything close to a similar level of output for those faiths on RTE.

Huntergonzo

lazygal wrote: »

So much this to this. We've been asked to be Godparents, and the people who asked genuinely couldn't understand why we said no. They tried the old 'its not religious, its a Nice Day Out' line. I think they thought we were being Militant Atheists and Making a Stand and wondered why we couldn't do the usual go along with things for a quiet life thing.
Himself is laid back but he was genuinely upset when two good mates implied we're not doing a good job as parents because we chose to leave religion behind. These are guys who've seen the abuse scandals over 20 years and attended our wedding, yet they think its ok to tell him that our children won't have morals because we don't indoctrinate them.

Sadly that's just the warped logic of the brainwashed, it really is and I think you's are doing an excellent job by leaving religion out of your childrens lives.

When people's children grow up to be adults I think they have every right to be religious if they choose to themselves, be it catholic, protestant, Jewish or whatever but it's shameful for a state to promote any religions.

I mean I can't come to terms with the stupidity of religious belief being based on where you were born. Think about how ludicrous it is, 'you were born on this land mass so you're a catholic, you were born on that land mass so you're a muslim' etc etc etc

lazygal

SW wrote: »

How frequent are the other religious broadcasts? There is the twice daily Angelus and the Sunday service ( I haven't checked to see if the celebrants of the mass are always RCC priests so it may cover Christianity as a whole).

RTE doesn't do daily call to prayer for Muslims, nor does it broadcast mass/services for other faiths to the best of my knowledge so I'm not seeing anything close to a similar level of output for those faiths on RTE.

RTE radio does broadcast Sunday services, but as they are Sunday services one could surmise they are all Christian services. But I have yet to see the Jewish sabbath observed every Friday, or a call to prayer five times a day for observant Muslims.

SpaceTime

lazygal wrote: »

So much this to this. We've been asked to be Godparents, and the people who asked genuinely couldn't understand why we said no. They tried the old 'its not religious, its a Nice Day Out' line. I think they thought we were being Militant Atheists and Making a Stand and wondered why we couldn't do the usual go along with things for a quiet life thing.
Himself is laid back but he was genuinely upset when two good mates implied we're not doing a good job as parents because we chose to leave religion behind. These are guys who've seen the abuse scandals over 20 years and attended our wedding, yet they think its ok to tell him that our children won't have morals because we don't indoctrinate them.

You could always turn up and declare yourselves athiests mid ceremony. That'd go down well I'm sure!

lazygal

SpaceTime wrote: »

You could always turn up and declare yourselves athiests mid ceremony. That'd go down well I'm sure!

Aw, I tend to go by the 'Don't be an asshole' approach. And I don't think we'd do ourselves any favours if we disrupted their Fake Big Day Out They Don't Really Believe In. And I live in hope that by explaining our position that maybe they'll think a bit about the choices they make.

SpaceTime

lazygal wrote: »

Aw, I tend to go by the 'Don't be an asshole' approach. And I don't think we'd do ourselves any favours if we disrupted their Fake Big Day Out They Don't Really Believe In. And I live in hope that by explaining our position that maybe they'll think a bit about the choices they make.

That's what I mean though... They're insulted because you told them you aren't prepared to lie in a religious ceremony.

There's every possibility a priest might ask you to "profess your faith" somehow or that he might know you're the local athiests... That could end up in an awkward moment for everyone !

They're not humanist naming ceremonies that are all inclusive. No matter how much left wing religious types want to dress them up as such.

The angelus is exactly the same in that regard.

In my own case the arm twisting I've had about being a god father (happened 4 times so far) was very extreme.

I'm still getting digs from one relative for my "defection". I formally did the defection process when count me out was still up and running. It's actually starting to really get up my nose at this stage and I've ended up literally storming off in a huff over it. I was at a wedding and two of them started off laying into me about it over the dinner table. All this nonsense about how I'd abandoned centuries of tradition and so on.

So, I just got up and went to the bathroom ... Actually got into the car and went home.

Probably a bit mean but after an hour of mins of sly digs and endlessly asking me why I'm not married I just had enough. Left the present and disappeared.

sbsquarepants

I have a really simple way to stop it. Tell the RCC that they will be invoiced for each and every add at the current market rates. 60 seconds primetime every day of the year - angelus would be pulled off air in a fortnight, replaced with a pampers add!:D

Peregrinus

SW wrote: »

How frequent are the other religious broadcasts? There is the twice daily Angelus and the Sunday service ( I haven't checked to see if the celebrants of the mass are always RCC priests so it may cover Christianity as a whole).

RTE doesn't do daily call to prayer for Muslims, nor does it broadcast mass/services for other faiths to the best of my knowledge so I'm not seeing anything close to a similar level of output for those faiths on RTE.

There are two services broadcast every week; one Catholic, and one from another Christian (mostly Protestant) tradition. Non-Christian services are broadcast irregularly, and usually only on special occasions, e.g. Passover. At one point there was a practice that in a five-Sunday month the second service slot would to to a non-Catholic non-Protestant tradition (Jewish, Muslim, non-denominational Christian). I don't know whether they still do this. Some religious traditions don't like their services being broadcast.

(Lazygal: The Irish Muslim community doesn't make a public call to prayer, so there is nothing to broadcast in that regard. Even if they did, I suspect the small size of the community, coupled with the frequency of the practice, would lead to a decision that a regular broadcast wasn't warranted.)

pwurple

SpaceTime wrote: »

My relative has been sent a christening robe and given a guilt tripping about how they're "abandoning family tradition".

This is a huge sense of tradition from the older generations with christenings. To me (and them I suspect) it's far more to do with history and tradition than the creed. You have no idea how ridiculously happy my grandparents were to see my baby, their greatgrandchild, being christened wearing the exact same dress that 4 previous generations had worn before her, in the very same church. I think it's absolutely lovely to link a child's great great grandparent's to them in this way, and I very much appreciated having the christening robe "sent" over.

I know modern society leans towards thinking family traditions are completely worthless (apart from inheritance maybe!), but to older people, they are extremely important.

If they asked for a photo without the actual ceremony, it shows that even more. They have taken the religion completely out of it to appease, and their long-held traditions of connecting the new generation with what went before are still shoved back in their face.

SpaceTime

pwurple wrote: »

This is a huge sense of tradition from the older generations with christenings. To me (and them I suspect) it's far more to do with history and tradition than the creed. You have no idea how ridiculously happy my grandparents were to see my baby, their greatgrandchild, being christened wearing the exact same dress that 4 previous generations had worn before her, in the very same church. I think it's absolutely lovely to link a child's great great grandparent's to them in this way, and I very much appreciated having the christening robe "sent" over.

I know modern society leans towards thinking family traditions are completely worthless (apart from inheritance maybe!), but to older people, they are extremely important.

If they asked for a photo without the actual ceremony, it shows that even more. They have taken the religion completely out of it to appease, and their long-held traditions of connecting the new generation with what went before are still shoved back in their face.

That wasn't what was said;

They laid a massive guilt trip on them. Told the mother of the kid (unfamiliar with Irish systems) that she wouldn't be able to send the child to school, told them they were marking their child out as "different". That she'd be bullied at school and that they were turning their back on centuries of family tradition.

It's causing them to seriously consider moving.

The mom is utterly furious about it and feels bullied.

frostyjacks

If it was the actual Angelus that was being broadcast instead of a non-denominational, non-religious piece, I could understand why some folk would take issue with it. But it's not.

lazygal

pwurple wrote: »

This is a huge sense of tradition from the older generations with christenings. To me (and them I suspect) it's far more to do with history and tradition than the creed. You have no idea how ridiculously happy my grandparents were to see my baby, their greatgrandchild, being christened wearing the exact same dress that 4 previous generations had worn before her, in the very same church. I think it's absolutely lovely to link a child's great great grandparent's to them in this way, and I very much appreciated having the christening robe "sent" over.

I know modern society leans towards thinking family traditions are completely worthless (apart from inheritance maybe!), but to older people, they are extremely important.

If they asked for a photo without the actual ceremony, it shows that even more. They have taken the religion completely out of it to appease, and their long-held traditions of connecting the new generation with what went before are still shoved back in their face.

That's all very well, if you want to do that. However, there is a difference in doing something because it something you've chosen to do, and being put under pressure to do something because there's a family robe that needs an airing and parents love having a day out. You can have loads of links to the past without needing a christening. Our church had a paedophile, Ivan Payne, operating in it. That's not a place I want to maintain a tradition of attending.


Re the bolded, how on earth did you reach that conclusion? If anything, I'm in far more contact with my parents than they were with theirs, mainly because we live close to each other and have the ability to call/text/visit regularly. My husband grew up in a different country to his extended family. Our children have far more contact with their grandparents and relatives than either of us ever did. Why do you think people who don't baptise think family traditions are worthless? What traditions are you talking about?

Huntergonzo

pwurple wrote: »

This is a huge sense of tradition from the older generations with christenings. To me (and them I suspect) it's far more to do with history and tradition than the creed. You have no idea how ridiculously happy my grandparents were to see my baby, their greatgrandchild, being christened wearing the exact same dress that 4 previous generations had worn before her, in the very same church. I think it's absolutely lovely to link a child's great great grandparent's to them in this way, and I very much appreciated having the christening robe "sent" over.

I know modern society leans towards thinking family traditions are completely worthless (apart from inheritance maybe!), but to older people, they are extremely important.

If they asked for a photo without the actual ceremony, it shows that even more. They have taken the religion completely out of it to appease, and their long-held traditions of connecting the new generation with what went before are still shoved back in their face.

I don't think family traditions are completely worthless, I certainly do think religious traditions are completely worthless!

Basically what you're saying is though that you got your child christened for tradition and to please other people. But what that really means (once you remove all bias) is that you got your child formally introduced into a cult without the child's consent to please other people, not a great situation I'd argue.

Now just to say, I'm not picking on you specifically, many people in Ireland do this, including my own sister (but that was to please my brother in laws parents and to help their children gain access to the local primary school) but I think no child should be baptized, it should be an adult decision.

expectationlost

frostyjacks wrote: »

If it was the actual Angelus that was being broadcast instead of a non-denominational, non-religious piece, I could understand why some folk would take issue with it. But it's not.

they are only doing this one day a week, we still have a problem with the rest of the week

expectationlost

Head of Religious Programmes at RTE, Roger Childs, on RTÉ plans to make Angelus slot accessible to 'all faiths and none' http://podcast.rasset.ie/podcasts/audio/2015/0625/20150625_rteradio1-newsatone-rtsangelus_c20802659_20802726_232_.mp3 .mp3

"culture of ireland is not a secular culture"

using 1 Iman being ok with it is used as justification

the public vote thing more PR nonsense.

might not call it the Angelus.

the BAI is not infallible

SpaceTime

Pfft!

It's Ireland - the same old same old round and round arguments about religion and being lost in the 1950s are a part of our culture that's for sure.

There are times I just get completely sick of the place.

lazygal

It's the old 'This is a Catholic country!!!!' attitude. Where people think you're somehow a bad parent who doesn't care a damn about anyone else if you decide not to baptise your child in a family heirloom, even if you don't actually believe in or follow any of the supernatural bits of the faith.

SpaceTime

Honestly, the more and more I encounter it as I get a bit more into my adult years, the more I just feel like leaving.

It's a "you don't belong here - conform or go away" type culture.

lazygal

SpaceTime wrote: »

Honestly, the more and more I encounter it as I get a bit more into my adult years, the more I just feel like leaving.

It's a "you don't belong here - conform or go away" type culture.

If there had been a No vote in the marriage equality referendum we'd have seriously, seriously considered moving to where my husband was born. Especially with the 8th amendment still in place and politicians flat out refusing to change it.

SpaceTime

lazygal wrote: »

If there had been a No vote in the marriage equality referendum we'd have seriously, seriously considered moving to where my husband was born. Especially with the 8th amendment still in place and politicians flat out refusing to change it.

What's making me consider it is the 8th amendment but also seeing my younger relatives being hit with the "you're not catholic .. oh we might have a place for you in that special school far, far away for the weirdos like yourself.." type attitude.

There's a lot to change, and I don't know if I could be bothered waiting around for it to happen. Life's not long enough.

Fred Swanson

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SpaceTime

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That and we all apparently speak fluent Irish at home 24/7.

frostyjacks

You'd emigrate before changing over the tv channel? That's a slight overreaction I would say.

SpaceTime

It's not the TV channel it's the attitude, the school system, the 8th amendment and the slow, slow pace of change on those issues.

Yeah, the same sex marriage thing is great but there are just so many other issues that are less on trend that need to be addressed and aren't being.

Brian Shanahan

frostyjacks wrote: »

I quite like that we have one minute of meditation and reflection on primetime tv. Better that than incessant advertising getting rammed down our throats.

so religious propoganda is better than commercial propoganda?

And on a state broadcaster too, which is supposed to cater to all Irish, the non-religious majority as well as the tiny minority of paleolithic era catlicks.

frostyjacks

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

so religious propoganda is better than commercial propoganda?

And on a state broadcaster too, which is supposed to cater to all Irish, the non-religious majority as well as the tiny minority of paleolithic era catlicks.

Well, if it scrapped it's religious output it wouldn't really be catering for all, would it?