can you get a job in development without degree

hagoonabear

Hi guys is it possible to get a job/internship in development without a degree? Learning python and c programming

L.Jenkins

Without a Degree, it would be quite difficult as you'd have a large pool of People to compete against. Are you working towards a Degree at all or just learning Python and C?

brevity

I'd say it would be quite hard. Try and complete an evening course or something like that.

You need to get a few personal projects out there on something like github to show people your work.

doopa

A number of larger companies offer schemes to recruit people before they go to third level education. Citi in Belfast for example. EY & the other Tier2 consultancy companies offer similar schemes. Most of them will let you take a degree part time whilst you work for them.

Manach

Best bet a HDip, one year that would give an a sufficent academic grounding.

hagoonabear

Oh I see, well I have tried looking at online degrees and diplomas for it/developing but don't really know any places to do so, can a hdip be gotten if I am an undergraduate?

red_ice

A degree means nothing in web imo. Its a formality if anything. I've binned more CV's that have degrees and employed guys that have a good portfolio over good grades.

Infact, I've at least had an interview for every job I've applied for and my CV doesn't mention the fact I have a cert, hdip and 2 degrees.

Write good code, get it on github, let people see your application(s), the jobs will come.

Dale Parish

It's not essential but I guess it's important from a HR perspective.

I reckon a large and/or impressive portfolio is key, especially if you don't have a degree.

I work for a large multinational in Dublin and I have no degree so it is possible.
(I'm 22 so I was hired here recently, rather than in any new-technology-panic-recruiting)

The Corinthian

hagoonabear wrote: »

Hi guys is it possible to get a job/internship in development without a degree? Learning python and c programming

Quick answer; in an economic boom, yes. In a tighter market, where competition for a more limited number of jobs, far less.

That's why people, even with degrees, continue to study. A masters, postgraduate diploma, or professional cert can be the difference between making on the shortlist or the reject pile.

amen

Red_Ice and Dale, Development is not just Web development.

Its everything from compilers, drives, mainframes, in house systems, MIS, business tier, Database development.

It is very hard to have a portfolio for those non web development job.

As for GitHub projects, thats a great ideabut for most people there is not enough time in the day to code Open source projects.

At the end of the day while you don't need a degree to code you most likely need one to get past HR and get an interview.

A degree (hopefully) also signifies you understand the theory, design patterns, why code works the way it does, how the hardware works etc

In my mind the IT Industry is similar to Civil/Auto/Mechanical Engineering in the early years of those fields where anyone could call themselves and engineer and build a bridge/car etc Its only when the bridges collapsed, cars turn over, crash etc were regulations enacted. Same will happen with IT eventually.

The Corinthian

amen wrote: »

In my mind the IT Industry is similar to Civil/Auto/Mechanical Engineering in the early years of those fields where anyone could call themselves and engineer and build a bridge/car etc Its only when the bridges collapsed, cars turn over, crash etc were regulations enacted. Same will happen with IT eventually.

I think it's astounding that it hasn't already. There have been so many projects screwed up by cowboy coders, leading to serious financial damage to the client organizations, that I'm not sure why there has not been more law suits, in turn leading to greater regulation in the industry, as a result.

Aswerty

Amen wrote:

It is very hard to have a portfolio for those non web development job.

For the most part the portfolio requirement, at least from what I see, is for stuff you do on your own time. Which makes it just as doable for most of the non web development guys and when it isn't nobody ask about a portfolio (e.g. mainframe work). Personally, I don't like the expectation that one programs outside of work; but some people do take it as a given (not pointing fingers) that good devs have personal projects. Though that's not to say people shouldn't be expected to continually improve themselves but that is a very broad area; well beyond the scope of personal projects.

I'd much prefer go to a talk, dabble in a new language, or try out some new tool than create software on my own time since that is the stuff I don't do on the job.

But to bring it back to the OP's question. I wouldn't advise anyone to try get into the industry without a qualification. That's not to say it isn't possible but you'd be an outlier if you do manage it. Getting your foot in the door is probably the toughest thing in a career and no qualification would impact you at that stage the most.

tramoreman

Employers would take on people that have experience and no qualifications was told that at a jobs fair just make sure you have a portfolio its a must a qualificatipn would be a plus

amen

tramoreman wrote: »

Employers would take on people that have experience and no qualifications was told that at a jobs fair just make sure you have a portfolio its a must a qualificatipn would be a plus

so you have just left school (18/19) or maybe evening working side projects and you are 21/22 what sort of real life development experience* do you have ? Do you understand the all the theory behind what you are working on, design patterns, how a computer works, algorithms etc ?

Again some really good people may get a job if they have relevant experience but the problem is getting the experience without a degree.

*Creating WordPress templates is not development experience

tramoreman

amen wrote: »

so you have just left school (18/19) or maybe evening working side projects and you are 21/22 what sort of real life development experience* do you have ? Do you understand the all the theory behind what you are working on, design patterns, how a computer works, algorithms etc ?

Again some really good people may get a job if they have relevant experience but the problem is getting the experience without a degree.

*Creating WordPress templates is not development experience

You should be attacking the post not the poster im older than that and no i dont do wordpress and i know a great deal about computers

Berserker

amen wrote: »

Do you understand the all the theory behind what you are working on, design patterns, how a computer works, algorithms etc ?

On a slight side topic, I have just performed a round of interviews for a developer position and was shocked by the number of candidates who did not know about design patterns or the basic theory behind software development.

OP, you can get a job without experience but it is extremely difficult. In most organisations, HR will filter the CVs submitted and those who have a degree will 'make the cut' ahead of those who don't. I have performed interviews for SE roles in a few companies and can't recall ever interviewing someone who hasn't got a degree level qualification.

L.Jenkins

Berserker wrote: »

On a slight side topic, I have just performed a round of interviews for a developer position and was shocked by the number of candidates who did not know about design patterns or the basic theory behind software development.

OP, you can get a job without experience but it is extremely difficult. In most organisations, HR will filter the CVs submitted and those who have a degree will 'make the cut' ahead of those who don't. I have performed interviews for SE roles in a few companies and can't recall ever interviewing someone who hasn't got a degree level qualification.

How many Colleges in the Country would actually survey IT Companies to find the short falls in knowledge potential candidates are going into the real world with?

amen

tramoreman wrote: »

You should be attacking the post not the poster im older than that and no i dont do wordpress and i know a great deal about computers

Sorry I didn't mean that to come across as attacking the poster. I was trying to tackle the post. Sorry for any offence.

L.Jenkins

amen wrote: »

so you have just left school (18/19) or maybe evening working side projects and you are 21/22 what sort of real life development experience* do you have ? Do you understand the all the theory behind what you are working on, design patterns, how a computer works, algorithms etc ?

Again some really good people may get a job if they have relevant experience but the problem is getting the experience without a degree.

*Creating WordPress templates is not development experience

It's not a catch 22 situation when it comes to experience, whether you have a degree/job or not. If your willingness to actually work on projects in your own time, developing a portfolio, which can be presented at an interview.

When I was unemployed for nearly 5-6 months in 2013, alongside applying for jobs and attending interviews, I was working on my own projects, from Linux to Applications across a broad range of technology stacks. This allowed to update my CV and LinkedIn profile, which worked in my favor. I'm now in my current position nearly a year.

Berserker

Itzy wrote: »

How many Colleges in the Country would actually survey IT Companies to find the short falls in knowledge potential candidates are going into the real world with?

None that I know of. I spoke to a staff member from one of the NUIs recently and he was more interested in 'protecting' the final year students from the advances of companies. He didn't seem too interested or aware of any shortfalls in terms of knowledge.

The Freeman

Would any of ye guys value a course with say team treehouse or code.org? Seem to have a lot of info and highly thought of.

doopa

Berserker wrote: »

None that I know of. I spoke to a staff member from one of the NUIs recently and he was more interested in 'protecting' the final year students from the advances of companies. He didn't seem too interested or aware of any shortfalls in terms of knowledge.

All of them will be doing this regularly. There will be a committee in each department charged with compiling an annual report on the employability of their students.

There does seem to be a particular problem with Comp Sci students though e.g.
https://targetjobs.co.uk/career-sectors/it-and-technology/323039-why-your-computer-science-degree-wont-get-you-an-it-job

The Corinthian

Berserker wrote: »

He didn't seem too interested or aware of any shortfalls in terms of knowledge.

I don't have a lot of time for CS academia. They live in a confortable little World, where doing more than 20 hours a week is overtime and much of the cutting edge technology taught is already five or more years out of date in the real World. It's not unusual to find leacutrers in databases with little or no experience in MySQL or Oracle, or VB6 still used to teach programming.

Even writing an academic paper is frustrating to say the least, as those sources you are allowed to draw on are just more out of date academics, with anything more cutting edge not acceptable, because it is not 'academically peer reviewed'.

The whole racket appears to be designed to protect a bunch of self-entitled academics in cushy jobs, who couldn't hold down a job in the private sector to save their lives, if the had to.

As a result, while such courses are good at teaching fundamentals that have not really changed in twenty years (and these are important), they're pretty useless at making one ready for a real work environment or the actual technologies they will be employing.

doopa wrote: »

There does seem to be a particular problem with Comp Sci students though

That's because many CS students should not really be studying a vocation that they have no real vocation in. It's like being a doctor or lawyer, except easier and attracts those who like or feel they know something about computers. Why do you think there are so many CS graduates who quickly move into less technical roles in the business?

In fairness, IT is not alone in this, I originally studied economics and finance, before I realized I had no real passion for it.

doopa

The Corinthian wrote: »

I don't have a lot of time for CS academia. They live in a confortable little World, where doing more than 20 hours a week is overtime and much of the cutting edge technology taught is already five or more years out of date in the real World. It's not unusual to find leacutrers in databases with little or no experience in MySQL or Oracle, or VB6 still used to teach programming.

Even writing an academic paper is frustrating to say the least, as those sources you are allowed to draw on are just more out of date academics, with anything more cutting edge not acceptable, because it is not 'academically peer reviewed'.

The whole racket appears to be designed to protect a bunch of self-entitled academics in cushy jobs, who couldn't hold down a job in the private sector to save their lives, if the had to.

As a result, while such courses are good at teaching fundamentals that have not really changed in twenty years (and these are important), they're pretty useless at making one ready for a real work environment or the actual technologies they will be employing.

This seems to be a fairly common trope - real world programmers dissing academic computer scientists. It overlooks the fact that academics invented the whole idea of programming, all the languages, wireless, networking... etc etc. Maybe it depends where you go to uni but the good ones will have more exposure to actual technologies.

That's because many CS students should not really be studying a vocation that they have no real vocation in. It's like being a doctor or lawyer, except easier and attracts those who like or feel they know something about computers. Why do you think there are so many CS graduates who quickly move into less technical roles in the business?

In fairness, IT is not alone in this, I originally studied economics and finance, before I realized I had no real passion for it.

Whilst IT is not alone in this it does seem to be by far the worst. Perhaps because of the way it is taught and maybe sold to student before signing up. Personally I would advocate vocational programming/engineering courses and a separate academic computer science degree. Because quite often they are very different things.

The Corinthian

doopa wrote: »

This seems to be a fairly common trope - real world programmers dissing academic computer scientists. It overlooks the fact that academics invented the whole idea of programming, all the languages, wireless, networking... etc etc. Maybe it depends where you go to uni but the good ones will have more exposure to actual technologies.

That may have been the case prior to the Internet, but I don't think you can say that anymore and for a long time now.

That is not to say that academia has no value or no place. I think it essential for any developer to have done some form of formal qualification and to understand the fundamental theory which is increasingly abstracted and hidden from coders nowadays - the number of 'Web developers' who don't really understand even the basic client-server model is frightening.

However it seems that computer science academia has been sitting on its laurels for a good while now, with the vast majority (certainly in Ireland) sitting far behind the private sector in terms of development of the field.

red_ice

amen wrote: »

Red_Ice and Dale, Development is not just Web development.

Its everything from compilers, drives, mainframes, in house systems, MIS, business tier, Database development.

It is very hard to have a portfolio for those non web development job.

Amen (ir amen? if so, long time!)

Well that's where the actual interview kicks in and also what type of developer you are? Front-end web dev wouldn't need to know about compilers/drives. My point (I suppose) was that reading through code will separate the men from the boys. You can be book smart all you like, its actually applying that learning to something that counts imo, hence the degree not being as important. In an interview you would expect to get more granular with regards details.

amen wrote: »

As for GitHub projects, thats a great ideabut for most people there is not enough time in the day to code Open source projects.

To me spending 30 minutes looking into someones code to see if they are up to scratch would be time better spent than finding out after an hour long interview.

amen wrote: »

In my mind the IT Industry is similar to Civil/Auto/Mechanical Engineering in the early years of those fields where anyone could call themselves and engineer and build a bridge/car etc Its only when the bridges collapsed, cars turn over, crash etc were regulations enacted. Same will happen with IT eventually.

I cannot wait for this to happen.

Aswerty wrote: »

Personally, I don't like the expectation that one programs outside of work

I wouldn't expect it from a developer, but I would hold them in higher regard. I cannot fathom the amount of times a theoretical approach to something I have dreamed up has some into play in my professional work.

Aswerty wrote: »

But to bring it back to the OP's question. I wouldn't advise anyone to try get into the industry without a qualification. That's not to say it isn't possible but you'd be an outlier if you do manage it. Getting your foot in the door is probably the toughest thing in a career and no qualification would impact you at that stage the most.

I agree. While I did say I feel it means nothing (and sort of contradicted that by saying I was in college for 10 years), I would always advise someone to get a good foundation in their field. I am going purely on the op's question tho, which was 'can you get a job in development without degree' and if you want to go down that route - see comment on github etc etc

redman85

Berserker wrote: »

On a slight side topic, I have just performed a round of interviews for a developer position and was shocked by the number of candidates who did not know about design patterns or the basic theory behind software development.

What level of knowledge would you be expecting about design patterns? As a student I would be able to talk about the theory behind the main ones and where they should be used but I would not be able to explain the implementation of them.

yes there

redman85 wrote: »

What level of knowledge would you be expecting about design patterns? As a student I would be able to talk about the theory behind the main ones and where they should be used but I would not be able to explain the implementation of them.

And therein lies the problem. So you're telling me you wouldnt know how to implement a pattern given a simple scenario for example, creating objects/change behaviour at run time. You must know the most basic one of all.

redman85

yes there wrote: »

And therein lies the problem. So you're telling me you wouldnt know how to implement a pattern given a simple scenario for example

Sorry I think I was misleading, what I meant was the implementation of the design pattern itself, ie write your own pub sub pattern

jester77

Well, anyone who is anyway semi-serious about being a developer would need to understand fundamental design patterns, identify them by looking at existing code and know which patterns are best to apply in a given situation based on requirements. It's not hard to throw code together, anyone with basic knowledge can do this, but being able to build a solution using best practices based off existing templates requires some level of skill and knowledge. If someone can display this level of knowledge without a degree then I don't see why they wouldn't be able to land a development position.

yes there

redman85 wrote: »

Sorry I think I was misleading, what I meant was the implementation of the design pattern itself, ie write your own pub sub pattern

How is that even possible if you know the theory behind them and also implement them. I dont understand how you can't. Its umpossible. I think you might be selling yourself short, another common problem with inexperienced, most know more than they think they know.