DART Service to be expanded

syklops

dublindiehard wrote: »

There's one 8520 near the North end of the depot as well which seems to ALWAYS be there apart from very rare occasions.

It's easily identifiable since all the underneath of it is silver and looking brand new and it looks repainted, but I've never seen it in service.

Sure you can't use that one, it's new!

cgcsb

stehyl15 wrote: »

I wonder how these people complaining about the overcrowding would last in Mumbai

Surely Dublin should be in a better state than any 3rd world City? no?

schemingbohemia

dublindiehard wrote: »

There will have to be a reduction in tran sizes to deliver the level of frequency that is being proposed unless there is a tender out for stock that I do not know about?

Essentially what is being proposed is an increase in frequency of 50% and there is nowhere near enough carriages to run even all the new services at such frequency in peak time even with 4 carriages.

Therefore some trains will need to be shortened to allow there to be enough capacity to allow for the increased frequency and it's going to require at least 32 carriages to add the new services in without effecting sexisting train lengths.

They have stock that they're not using. How do you think they were operating 6 and 8 car sets (on the same(ish) timetable) back in 2007?

Do you think they were operating 4 car sets all along and with the downturn they suddenly got full?

Captain Chaos

Before 2007 the DARTs were just as frequent as they are now and no sets were shorter than 6 cars and most being 8 cars long. At 16:58 and 17:04 north bound at Connolly each day, the first is always a 6 car LHB set jammed to the doors and around 400 people leave it at Connolly for the Sligo train, the one after is always a 4 car 85xx set that is standing room only and jammed to the doors during school term.

There are 17 4 car sets and 38 2 car sets. You can make 9 8 car sets from the LHB DARTs and have maintenance spares and 8 8 cars sets from the 8500s and have 1 set spare as maintenance. That's 17 8 car sets max that can be deployed with the current fleet. But in reality there is more needed as maintenance spares as sets have to be dragged to Drogheda and Inchicore for wheel turning and other stuff that can't be done at Fairview.

I reckon a realistic max is 14 8 car sets at peak times, so 7 full trains each way. That's what it was like in the boom times. I reckon they need more EMUs to replace the 5 2 car sets they lost with 8200s that were a bad buy to begin with and the 2 2 car LHB sets they lost in the fire at Fairview that some of the 8200 order was to replace. The DART fleet is 7 2 car sets less than if should be.

dublindiehard

schemingbohemia wrote: »

They have stock that they're not using. How do you think they were operating 6 and 8 car sets (on the same(ish) timetable) back in 2007?

Same timetable is a key word here.

The new timebable will require more sets than were in use in the past. If the additional trains will be four cars each, it will require 16 carriages an hour to be added for four car trains.

If you take into account that a dart set roughly takes 1hr 20 mins to complete it's journey end to end, and 10 mins roughly idle time at terminus it will mean to run the timetable, a further 24 carriages will be required at least above what is in use now to deliver that timetable if the new services were to be formed of additional carriages only, at four cars only and without removing carriages from other services.

Captain Chaos

If they finish DASH 2 they can run more trains through the loop line per hour and in theory they can reduce end to end running times that as it is has far too much padding. As it is they could take 10mins of that time easily. Alot of time is lost being held on the Howth branch waiting for late running Commuter and Enterprise services, also alot of time is lost waiting at Tara Street while Commuter trains are shunting between Pearse and Grand Canal Dock.

end of the road

dublindiehard wrote: »

My frustration is not with the over-crowding per se, it's more the fact that capacity is not being matched to demand properly.

exactly. and its a reasonable, legitimate point. we know a service such as the dart will have some overcrowding, the problem is in this country, that services have what is called unnecessary overcrowding. this is overcrowding caused by factors that can be controled and sorted out, such as short trains where longer are needed, and the infrastructure not being used to its maximum potential. other similar services around the world have what is called necessary overcrowding. this is caused by factors that can't really be controlled and sorted out such as, the trains being at the maximum length possible, and the infrastructure being maxed out and can't be used any more then currently, as it can't be extended or upgraded.

stehyl15

cgcsb wrote: »

Surely Dublin should be in a better state than any 3rd world City? no?

At least in mumbai they use all their resources dont think they have too many perfectly good mark 3s or alstom cars lying idle

LXFlyer

dublindiehard wrote: »

Same timetable is a key word here.

The new timebable will require more sets than were in use in the past. If the additional trains will be four cars each, it will require 16 carriages an hour to be added for four car trains.

If you take into account that a dart set roughly takes 1hr 20 mins to complete it's journey end to end, and 10 mins roughly idle time at terminus it will mean to run the timetable, a further 24 carriages will be required at least above what is in use now to deliver that timetable if the new services were to be formed of additional carriages only, at four cars only and without removing carriages from other services.

Let's just dispel this nonsense about trains having to be reduced to four car sets, because that is what it is (and apologies for being blunt about it).

End to end running time is 1 hour 10 minutes from either Malahide or Howth to Bray (and 10 minutes extra to Greystones).

A 10 minute DART frequency, maintaining the 30 minute frequency to/from Greystones, requires 17 sets to deliver the timetable, allowing 10 minutes to turn around at each terminus.

Allowing for maintenance cover you could potentially operate that with 11 eight-car trains and 6 six-car trains.

No need to operate 4 car trains anywhere at peak.

So, please stop this nonsense about having to shorten trains to 4 cars.

devnull

The problem with the 17.10 from Bray is not just down to carriages, it's a combination of carriages and the timetable and the lack of Northern Commuter train between the previous DART half an hour earlier and itself, pretty much all the other half hourly Malahide trains have a commuter inbetween.

However you'd think with the fact that it has such a long gap, with no limited stop service between it and the previous dart, would make it a nailed on choice for at least a 6 car. A timetable recast to eliminate this kind of problem would also lessen the load on the 17.10 from Bray if it had some kind of relief.

end of the road

stehyl15 wrote: »

At least in mumbai they use all their resources dont think they have too many perfectly good mark 3s or alstom cars lying idle

the mark 3s are mostly scrapped bar a few in preservation and some gone for the bellmont express service. no point in going down that route again though. the alsthom 8200 darts are junk. unless something can be done to gut them and convert them cheeply to simple trailor cars (which is unlikely) they won't be back in service. i don't even know what condition they are in . the 2700 DMUS might be back but its a case of wait and see.

stehyl15

4 car trains should be resricted to weekends only

Spanish Eyes

I have taken the DART on weekdays around midday going south, and around 4pm going North.

I have no idea about "sets", but those trains are BIIIG! Almost filling the platforms at either end.

If there is a funding shortage how come longer trains are on the line outside of the peak hours?

Honestly, four carriages per journey at peak times? Is someone having a laugh!

I don't know how you do it. But there is something wrong when longer trains operate during the off peak, and shorter ones during the peak.

Daft.

But as an infrequent user of DART, I am sure there is a very intelligent explanation for this practice!

dublindiehard

1710 from bray standing room only at salthill tonight. People unable to board at pearse

Eugene Norman

The excuses for reducing the carriages, basically loss of revenue due to reduced demand and high energy prices have reversed. 8 carriages for rush hour please.

LXFlyer

Eugene Norman wrote: »

The excuses for reducing the carriages, basically loss of revenue due to reduced demand and high energy prices have reversed. 8 carriages for rush hour please.

Yes, but PSO funding has not increased - it was cut last year and stayed the same this year. The company's finances are not suddenly sorted - far from it.

Added to that with the increased use of LEAP, with consequent fare reductions, extending the child fare to 18 year olds, it's quite possible that farebox revenue did not increase significantly last year. The LEAP90 discount will presumably also reduce farebox revenue, unless the increase in user numbers compensates for that.

There will have to be a period while the gap in the company's finances is fixed, and then with increased PSO funding in 2016 then hopefully we can move to expansion once again.

Spanish Eyes

But does anyone know why there are very long carriages out of peak, and very short ones AT peak?

Is it something to do with frequency at peak times maybe?

See my previous post!

Hollister11

dublindiehard wrote: »

rte.ie/news/2015/0409/692920-rail/

I'd much rather they address the chronic capacity issues on the Malahide branch at peak time which nobody seems interested in doing.

Over the last few weeks they continue to add carriages to trains which have a very small number of people standing, whilst allowing others to be crush loaded to the effect where people cannot board.

The Malahide - Greystones/Bray and vice versa, is an absolute nightmare. I get on every morning at 8.15 at Clongriffin, and there is never a seat. There is always standing room, but by the time you get to Killester, your squashed like sardines.

Eugene Norman

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

But does anyone know why there are very long carriages out of peak, and very short ones AT peak?

Is it something to do with frequency at peak times maybe?

See my previous post!

Theres a train at about 17:30, early rush hour, which is 8 carriages going to Howth 5 minutes after the malahide train from pearse. Empty. At 6:20 which is high rush hour the Howth train is 4 carriages. Packed.

The latter isn't as crowded as say the central line, it's just the fact that it's tiny mid rush hour which bugs me.

stehyl15

I often wonder would the dart be better if it were hauled by an electric loco meaning that it would be more energy efficent to run longer trains it have to push pull of course

devnull

No, they wouldn't be, you'd have to gut the train length back as well to get it to fit into a platform. Units are much better than locos for this type of service.

The 8100 trains are vastly better than the other darts, they have vastly smoother acceleration for a start and the best seats and a PIS that actually works.

Eugene Norman

Yeah. The newer ones, the 8150 I think, have ridiculous amounts of momentum.

trellheim

Can I ask the same question differently. What is to stop the existing sets being increased to 6 or 8 cars. What is the extra cost to IE

1. Electricity to pull the bigger weight
2. SLightly higher maintenance due to increased mileage on the sets

What am I missing there folks .

Or is IE just playing a game to get moola out of NTA

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

Can I ask the same question differently. What is to stop the existing sets being increased to 6 or 8 cars. What is the extra cost to IE

1. Electricity to pull the bigger weight
2. SLightly higher maintenance due to increased mileage on the sets

What am I missing there folks .

Or is IE just playing a game to get moola out of NTA

You've covered the two main elements.

The finances in IE are that bad right now - they have been trying to maintain the same level of services while passenger numbers dropped significantly, and the PSO subsidy fell.

Basically the only way they could address that is cost control and revenue protection.

One of the cost control measures has been the shortened DART formations.

It's all well and good saying that passenger numbers are increasing now, but the impact of the recent years on the company is going to take time to correct - it is not going to happen overnight.

Also, while passenger numbers are rising, the real question is whether farebox revenue has increased. While LEAP may be encouraging more customers, it is doing so at reduced rates, and farebox revenue will also have fallen as a result of the extension of suburban child fares to under 19 year olds (previously was under 16 year olds).

The bottom line is that if services are to improve and develop someone has to pay for it, and that will have to mean that the PSO grant starts to rise again.

Captain Chaos

devnull wrote: »

The 8100 trains are vastly better than the other darts, they have vastly smoother acceleration for a start and the best seats and a PIS that actually works.

I'd actually rate the 8520s better. Smoother ride, faster doors, more standing space and more leg room sitting down than the 8100s. The 8100s slip and slide alot under braking and acceleration and the doors are very very slow to open and close since the refurb program.

The 8500s are a disaster for the seats installed, the 8510s are worse as they have the same bad seats and a bogie PIS system that still has not been fully sorted out.

The only thing good about the 8100s is the PIS system and the heaters during the winter.

devnull

For me the 8500s have a terrible initial acceleration, that they jolt backwards and forwards quite a bit until they get up to speed, I agree they're fine then, but at least the 8100s actually can manage without any of that, on some sets it's worse than others, it's like under accelerating someone is pressing the break lightly every second or so.

I agree that the doors are slow on the 8100s, some sets are worse than others and there is one set that still has an out of date PIS system installed on it ever since it came back from refurb (you know the one it is, it keeps repeating please do not put your feet on the seats 3 times after every stop and doesn't know Clongriffin exists)

The least said about the PIS on the 8500s the better.

pclive

Are the carriages completely full or is it like the Luas where its full at the doors as people wont move away from the door and fill the isles between the seats?

dublindiehard

Completely full on the 1710 bray

loyatemu

The 1800 Pearse - Greystones is often very full, sometimes don't get a seat until Bray - it's generally a 6-car Siemens set. Completely full would imply some passengers can't get on - I haven't really seen that unless there's something on at Lansdowne Road.

dublindiehard

The problem is mostly north side based in second half of evening peak when most trains are four cars.

check the train going in the other direction through pearse about 15 minutes before yours to Malahide if you want to see crush loading