I'm great, I've just run a marathon, adore me...

robinph

MrWalsh wrote: »

Messers? Bit dismissive no?

I think that attitude is awful tbh. My little niece (8 years old) is being pushed by her swimming club to compete now. She's a good swimmer. She doesnt want to compete. Her family dont want her to. It will soon come to a point where she leaves it because she doesnt want to compete. So then there will be a kid who loves swimming but who doesnt do it anymore because she is offered a choice of "compete or leave".

I really dont see how that is good for anyone.

What is there for the club to gain by just having a social swimmer? Sounds like they are being used as a form of child care in that case. If the adults get involved and provide the training or other support then it's a different matter, but would make more sense to go along to a regular pool session and just swim in a social setting then.

tunguska

I think people are hardwired for development and progress though. I've talked to a lot of folks about this subject because I think its pretty fascinating to understand why people do the things they Do (or Dont do). I've asked runners who are vocal about their desire not to compete about why they made that decision and you get 2 responses. The first is always something like, I'm not competitive because it would ruin the enjoyment of running or something along the lines of lacking in any athletic ability. But when you dig a little deeper and ask a few more questions it turns out that the real reason they're not competitive is because of fear. They're afraid of coming last or even the fear of pain associated with racing. Usually at its root is a bad sporting experience as a child, like coming last in a sports day race or being humiliated because you didn't pick up a sporting skill as quickly as the other kids seemed to. This is a pattern I've noticed and I think to avoid competition or pushing yourself because of fear is more avoiding something than going towards another thing.
I mean I just think its always good to reflect on the reasons why you do the things you do and ask yourself are you avoiding something out of fear or is it because of something else?? I just think the things that scare you are the very things you need to face and throw yourself into.
Repressing a desire to refine and develop yourself is not a good thing, but I think it happens a lot, out of fear. Like if you played a game on the Xbox, and there were 10 levels, would you really stop at level 5 and say, I'm grand now I have no desire to reach the next stage. I have never in my life met anyone who has done that, they always want to go further.
There's a book called the Four agreements, and I think its one everyone should read. One of the agreements is, Always try your best. Its such a simple concept but very powerful. When I hear somebody say, I Dont want to try my best, alarm bells go off, at an intuitive level it feels wrong and out of place. There is a profound enjoyment and fulfilment to be got from trying your best, its an amazing feeling, and I think to intentionally not try your best is to sell yourself short. And sometimes you just don't know what your best looks like until a bit of pressure is applied. Its healthy pressure that's conducive to growth, like training with a group who are just a little bit better than you are. I Dont believe you're either born competitive or not, I think its a product of conditioning and significant early experiences. But its always something that's a fluid concept, at any time you can decide to give it a go and push it just that little bit more. Even by way of trying it out, to see what happens and if you like that feeling or not. Its always good to try and not allow past experiences to colour your life now.
And your best is your best under your life circumstances. Lihe if you had a few kids and a full time job, then obviously you're not gonna be able to devote as much time to training as a single person. But you can still do what you do to the best of your ability. I honesty can't see anything negative or off putting about that.

menoscemo

MrWalsh wrote: »

Messers? Bit dismissive no?

I think that attitude is awful tbh. My little niece (8 years old) is being pushed by her swimming club to compete now. She's a good swimmer. She doesnt want to compete. Her family dont want her to. It will soon come to a point where she leaves it because she doesnt want to compete. So then there will be a kid who loves swimming but who doesnt do it anymore because she is offered a choice of "compete or leave".

I really dont see how that is good for anyone.

I can certainly see the argument about 8 years old being too young to compete. But if you are in a club surely that's the point?
If you were in a football or GAA club, went to all the tranings etc but then refused to play any matches would that be OK? If not then what's the difference here?

Coaches don't tend to be in it to make money, they generally make nothing. It's merely the desire to maybe one day produce one champion or a champion team. But if people don't want to compete then why waste their time?

Halloween Jack

walshb wrote: »

I don't know. How does it ruin the sport? See. the key word is sport. Running is not necessarily sport. A sport is something that is competitive; that is the key ingredient.

I'll tell you how a free for all could damage a boxing club. When anyone and everyone is allowed join without competing, resources are stretched and the actual boxers are competing for access to time and equipment, and this will negatively impact their performance. I am not sure how this pans out in an athletics club, but I wouldn't think there would be too much difference.

Hang on even if everybody wants to compete and you let too many join they are all competing for equipment etc.

If you have a non competitive group who are good members of the club they take part in Different sessions at different times than the competitive guys.

RayCun

For adults, there's no limit on how many can join. If people want to join but not compete, I don't mind. Most people will race sometimes but it isn't a problem if they don't. (Getting the people who do compete, but not in the races I'd like, that's another problem)

With kids though, there's a limit of 12 kids to every coach. If we have kids in the club who won't compete, they're keeping out kids who would. And while I don't expect all kids to win medals, I would hope that they are always trying their best. If they aren't competing, what are they trying their best for?

walshb

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Hang on even if everybody wants to compete and you let too many join they are all competing for equipment etc.

If you have a non competitive group who are good members of the club they take part in Different sessions at different times than the competitive guys.

Of course you will run into issues no matter what you do. You presenting scenarios like so is irrelevant. Join an athletics club to compete. End of! If you do not want to complete stay away!

average_runner

walshb wrote: »

Of course you will run into issues no matter what you do. You presenting scenarios like so is irrelevant. Join an athletics club to compete. End of! If you do not want to complete stay away!

Sorry don't speak for all the clubs, our club is open to all runners from serious to non serious

walshb

average_runner wrote: »

Sorry don't speak for all the clubs, our club is open to all runners from serious to non serious

That's great. That's one club I'd pass by!

ultrapercy

tunguska wrote: »

I think people are hardwired for development and progress though. I've talked to a lot of folks about this subject because I think its pretty fascinating to understand why people do the things they Do (or Dont do). I've asked runners who are vocal about their desire not to compete about why they made that decision and you get 2 responses. The first is always something like, I'm not competitive because it would ruin the enjoyment of running or something along the lines of lacking in any athletic ability. But when you dig a little deeper and ask a few more questions it turns out that the real reason they're not competitive is because of fear. They're afraid of coming last or even the fear of pain associated with racing. Usually at its root is a bad sporting experience as a child, like coming last in a sports day race or being humiliated because you didn't pick up a sporting skill as quickly as the other kids seemed to. This is a pattern I've noticed and I think to avoid competition or pushing yourself because of fear is more avoiding something than going towards another thing.
I mean I just think its always good to reflect on the reasons why you do the things you do and ask yourself are you avoiding something out of fear or is it because of something else?? I just think the things that scare you are the very things you need to face and throw yourself into.
Repressing a desire to refine and develop yourself is not a good thing, but I think it happens a lot, out of fear. Like if you played a game on the Xbox, and there were 10 levels, would you really stop at level 5 and say, I'm grand now I have no desire to reach the next stage. I have never in my life met anyone who has done that, they always want to go further.
There's a book called the Four agreements, and I think its one everyone should read. One of the agreements is, Always try your best. Its such a simple concept but very powerful. When I hear somebody say, I Dont want to try my best, alarm bells go off, at an intuitive level it feels wrong and out of place. There is a profound enjoyment and fulfilment to be got from trying your best, its an amazing feeling, and I think to intentionally not try your best is to sell yourself short. And sometimes you just don't know what your best looks like until a bit of pressure is applied. Its healthy pressure that's conducive to growth, like training with a group who are just a little bit better than you are. I Dont believe you're either born competitive or not, I think its a product of conditioning and significant early experiences. But its always something that's a fluid concept, at any time you can decide to give it a go and push it just that little bit more. Even by way of trying it out, to see what happens and if you like that feeling or not. Its always good to try and not allow past experiences to colour your life now.
And your best is your best under your life circumstances. Lihe if you had a few kids and a full time job, then obviously you're not gonna be able to devote as much time to training as a single person. But you can still do what you do to the best of your ability. I honesty can't see anything negative or off putting about that.

Excellent pout.

average_runner

walshb wrote: »

That's great. That's one club I'd pass by!

Suppose training with a European Indoor Master Medallist wouldn't be up to ur standard!!

Halloween Jack

menoscemo wrote: »

I can certainly see the argument about 8 years old being too young to compete. But if you are in a club surely that's the point?
If you were in a football or GAA club, went to all the tranings etc but then refused to play any matches would that be OK? If not then what's the difference here?

Coaches don't tend to be in it to make money, they generally make nothing. It's merely the desire to maybe one day produce one champion or a champion team. But if people don't want to compete then why waste their time?

My dad coached underage football for donkeys, rarely had a successful team, he always took B and C squads so more kids could be involved with the game, he rotated players regardless of ability so everybody could take part. Nobody ever went on to anything in the game, but loads of those lads are still involved, some still playing over 35's, some are now coaching their own junior teams.

Maybe Mr walsh's niece has no interest in competition, but keep her involved and maybe she becomes a great youth coach or club secretary or whatever.

Nobody is saying that competition is a bad thing but there has to be room in sports for people who don't dig that, and surely If there are enough of them they may set up clubs to cater to their type of enjoyment of an activity

walshb

average_runner wrote: »

Suppose training with a European Indoor Master Medallist wouldn't be up to ur standard!!

Maybe if he joined a strict athletics club he'd be a gold medalist!

MrWalsh

walshb wrote: »

That to me is the definition of a club. The swimming club in this case is the one I'd be thinking of joining if I was keen to compete.

BTW, don't be so defeatist. There are other alternatives for a swim loving child.

Actually the same thing happened me as a child and I left and there were no other options. Parents couldnt afford a weekly open swim fee - the club was a good price for a years membership. So I never did swim again until I was an adult.

In this kids case she is now friends with the other kids in the swim club so she will lose those friendships, she will lose the joy of swimming and she will in all probability lose the ability - I did and had to relearn as an adult.

I dont know, it seems like you and I have a different idea of what the love of a sport or being a member of a sports club should entail.

average_runner

walshb wrote: »

Maybe if he joined a strict athletics club he'd be a gold medalist!

Never said what color medal!!

walshb

average_runner wrote: »

Never said what color medal!!

Well, the fact that you didn't tells me more. I'd be shouting the colour from the rooftops if it was gold!

walshb

MrWalsh wrote: »

I dont know, it seems like you and I have a different idea of what the love of a sport or being a member of a sports club should entail.

I see where you are coming from, and yes, maybe my view is a bit OTT, but it's the way I was brought up as regards competing and sport. I guess it's something deeply enshrined into me. I am prepared to bend and be flexible.

Halloween Jack

tunguska wrote: »

I think people are hardwired for development and progress though. I've talked to a lot of folks about this subject because I think its pretty fascinating to understand why people do the things they Do (or Dont do). I've asked runners who are vocal about their desire not to compete about why they made that decision and you get 2 responses. The first is always something like, I'm not competitive because it would ruin the enjoyment of running or something along the lines of lacking in any athletic ability. But when you dig a little deeper and ask a few more questions it turns out that the real reason they're not competitive is because of fear. They're afraid of coming last or even the fear of pain associated with racing. Usually at its root is a bad sporting experience as a child, like coming last in a sports day race or being humiliated because you didn't pick up a sporting skill as quickly as the other kids seemed to. This is a pattern I've noticed and I think to avoid competition or pushing yourself because of fear is more avoiding something than going towards another thing.
I mean I just think its always good to reflect on the reasons why you do the things you do and ask yourself are you avoiding something out of fear or is it because of something else?? I just think the things that scare you are the very things you need to face and throw yourself into.
Repressing a desire to refine and develop yourself is not a good thing, but I think it happens a lot, out of fear. Like if you played a game on the Xbox, and there were 10 levels, would you really stop at level 5 and say, I'm grand now I have no desire to reach the next stage. I have never in my life met anyone who has done that, they always want to go further.
There's a book called the Four agreements, and I think its one everyone should read. One of the agreements is, Always try your best. Its such a simple concept but very powerful. When I hear somebody say, I Dont want to try my best, alarm bells go off, at an intuitive level it feels wrong and out of place. There is a profound enjoyment and fulfilment to be got from trying your best, its an amazing feeling, and I think to intentionally not try your best is to sell yourself short. And sometimes you just don't know what your best looks like until a bit of pressure is applied. Its healthy pressure that's conducive to growth, like training with a group who are just a little bit better than you are. I Dont believe you're either born competitive or not, I think its a product of conditioning and significant early experiences. But its always something that's a fluid concept, at any time you can decide to give it a go and push it just that little bit more. Even by way of trying it out, to see what happens and if you like that feeling or not. Its always good to try and not allow past experiences to colour your life now.
And your best is your best under your life circumstances. Lihe if you had a few kids and a full time job, then obviously you're not gonna be able to devote as much time to training as a single person. But you can still do what you do to the best of your ability. I honesty can't see anything negative or off putting about that.

Agree with what you say but personal development/really giving your best in something is not the same as competition.

I'm sure for the vast majority of people here giving the best they can give, rather than competition is the aim.

plodder

menoscemo wrote: »

I genuinley think that 99% of people in running are competitive, especially people who regularly enter races. Some will say they are not competitive but they will certainly tell you when they set a PB!!
People who are not ashamed to be openly competitive and flat out say I want to improve by x or I want to run this race in x, y ,z are often stigmatised as being 'elitist' which I think is nonsense. Elitist is a silly word that's thrown about IMO.

That's the real meaning of 'competitive', but the trouble is soemtimes it's used to imply a particular standard. Like if someone asks you "Are you a competitive runner?" A lot of people will be reluctant to admit it, unless they feel they are of a certain standard. I don't think it matters that much as inside they have their own aims and goals.

I think also some people go through certain stages of just ticking over and running to stay fit. Maybe injuries are recurring or other stuff is getting in the way of absolute dedication (:pac:) That doesn't mean they won't sometime in the future knuckle down and make progress.

RayCun

That's another side of it. If the great divide is between 'those who want to get better' and 'those who don't want to get better', with all right-thinking people in the first camp... how much do we really want to get better?

Yeah, yeah, we'll train harder and learn how to train better. To an extent.

How many people on the forum are actually training to their limits? Not just running, but strength and flexibility work? And diet (including drink)? And going to bed that extra hour early for recovery instead of staying up to watch TV? Or to spend time with family? Or with friends?

There's no point in being too snotty about people not trying to improve themselves, when so much of our time is not spend on self-improvement, and even goes on things that will sabotage training. It's not just our race times that separate us from the elites.

MrWalsh

walshb wrote: »

I see where you are coming from, and yes, maybe my view is a bit OTT, but it's the way I was brought up as regards competing and sport. I guess it's something deeply enshrined into me. I am prepared to bend and be flexible.

What actually sparked our sideline debate here was a poster complaining about the ethos of ParkRun being to complete not to compete.

I never would have viewed ParkRun as even a club. I see it as an event that anyone can get involved in regardless of ability. Correct me if Im wrong but there are no coaches are there?

I dont see anything wrong with this. Is it not better that the few hundred (or whatever) people who show up to ParkRun are getting out there and actually running rather than not? If ParkRun suddenly became about competition and winning youd see much less people do it - so whats the point in that? There are already competitions for people who like that kind of thing, why not let people who arent into competing have an event to go to as well.

I can see the need for (sorry to use the word) elite sports clubs alright, where people are training as professional sportspeople, but what percentage of people are really at that level?

pug_

walshb wrote: »

Of course you will run into issues no matter what you do. You presenting scenarios like so is irrelevant. Join an athletics club to compete. End of! If you do not want to complete stay away!

So what's your opinion on people who say they are happy to compete but don't have the ability? Should they be turned away from clubs too?

walshb

pug_ wrote: »

So what's your opinion on people who say they are happy to compete but don't have the ability? Should they be turned away from clubs too?

I thought that would come up. Yes, for a real and true sports clubs then goals and targets need to be addressed and assessed. That is how I would like to see sport in this country.

walshb

MrWalsh wrote: »

I can see the need for (sorry to use the word) elite sports clubs alright, where people are training as professional sportspeople, but what percentage of people are really at that level?

They don't have to be elite in the sense that only the best of the best can be part of the club, but elite in the sense that their members can hold their own in competition that is relevant to their talent/success levels.

Halloween Jack

walshb wrote: »

I thought that would come up. Yes, for a real and true sports clubs then goals and targets need to be addressed and assessed. That is how I would like to see sport in this country.

Where do you draw that line? Maybe 'real and true' sporting nations think there's no point involving Irish athletes in the majority of events because they don't have the ability to compete?

MrWalsh

walshb wrote: »

I thought that would come up. Yes, for a real and true sports clubs then goals and targets need to be addressed and assessed. That is how I would like to see sport in this country.

So youre only allowed join if (a) you want to compete and (b) youre good.

Well that rules a hell of a lot of people out!

walshb

MrWalsh wrote: »

So youre only allowed join if (a) you want to compete and (b) youre good.

Well that rules a hell of a lot of people out!

I guess it does, but there you have it. Welcome to the ridiculously competitive world of athletics.

walshb

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Where do you draw that line? Maybe 'real and true' sporting nations think there's no point involving Irish athletes in the majority of events because they don't have the ability to compete?

But they do have the ability to compete if they make the qualifying standard.

It's all about levels. Not every club member will get to the elite level. I understand this. There are many many many more races/competitions out there other than elite or global elite athletics.

MrWalsh

walshb wrote: »

I guess it does, but there you have it. Welcome to the ridiculously competitive world of athletics.

So what should the ruled out people do?

walshb

MrWalsh wrote: »

So what should the ruled out people do?

What?

Are you asking questions just for the sake of it?

RayCun

anyone else find it funny that almost 20% of the posts on this thread are by someone who doesn't run and isn't a member of a club?
(except for the very exclusive club that is my 'blocked posters' list)

Chivito550

Competing can mean more than just getting faster. For example, many people in my club when I lived in Melbourne would jump into field events at interclub competition. We were terrible at most of them. I certainly was anyway. I didn't train for these events, and never would consider myself a good athlete in any of those events. But by jumping into those events that weren't our forte, we enabled our club to score more points allowing OUR CLUB to be more competitive against other clubs.

Jumping into a cross country race or whatever to help out a club is just as legitimate a form of competing as training for yourself only.

walshb

RayCun wrote: »

anyone else find it funny that almost 20% of the posts on this thread are by someone who doesn't run and isn't a member of a club?
(except for the very exclusive club that is my 'blocked posters' list)

More elitist nonsense. You can only have a view if you are a member of a club?

Who is this person?

pug_

MrWalsh wrote: »

So what should the ruled out people do?

Maybe play golf? Or are golf clubs not really clubs either?

Sacksian

walshb wrote: »

I guess it does, but there you have it. Welcome to the ridiculously competitive world of athletics.

Hi - are you a member of an athletics club?

Can you name any athletics clubs that share your views on how prospective members are recruited?

Would you agree that your views on how athletics club are (or ought to be) run are wholly uninformed by any actual experience of the administration of athletics clubs?

walshb

Sacksian wrote: »

Hi - are you a member of an athletics club?

Can you name any athletics clubs that share your views on how prospective members are recruited?

Would you agree that your views on how athletics club are (or ought to be) run are wholly uninformed by any actual experience of the administration of athletics clubs?

I am not the only poster who has this view. Maybe my view is a bit OTT, but it's not alone!

Not a member of a club.

MrWalsh

walshb wrote: »

More elitist nonsense. You can only have a view if you are a member of a club?

Who is this person?

Its probably me, although I do run but Im not in a club.

No Im not asking you questions for the sake of it, I want to know what you think someone who isnt very good at a sport or who isnt interested in competing should do if they want to participate in the sport? Say someone with a disability or injury that would preclude ever being "elite" at it.

plodder

MrWalsh wrote: »

What actually sparked our sideline debate here was a poster complaining about the ethos of ParkRun being to complete not to compete.

I'd put it slightly differently. It's more about completing than competing. But, by no means is it exclusively one over the other. Probably the best way of illustrating it is the annual points competition. It's not the absolute fastest runners who win this. It's the reasnably fast runner, who turns up every week (and volunteers a couple of times).

walshb

MrWalsh wrote: »

Its probably me, although I do run but Im not in a club.

No Im not asking you questions for the sake of it, I want to know what you think someone who isnt very good at a sport or who isnt interested in competing should do if they want to participate in the sport? Say someone with a disability or injury that would preclude ever being "elite" at it.

Sorry for my curt reply to your last post.

I would suggest that those who aren't physically/mentally cut out for a club/sport/competitive environment should seek alternatives. That is for them to decide, not me, the person who runs and guides the club!

MrWalsh

walshb wrote: »

Sorry for my curt reply to your last post.

I would suggest that those who aren't physically/mentally cut out for a club/sport/competitive environment should seek alternatives. That is for them to decide, not me, the person who runs and guides the club!

I think we are debating semantics.

You think that "club" means a certain thing. I dont. I think you can have a club where the people like to participate and have fun etc and that is just as valid as a club where the people are training for the Olympics.

pug_

walshb wrote: »

Sorry for my curt reply to your last post.

I would suggest that those who aren't physically/mentally cut out for a club/sport/competitive environment should seek alternatives. That is for them to decide, not me, the person who runs and guides the club!

And what might those alternatives be if all sports clubs are to be reserved for the gifted and motivated competitor?

walshb

Sacksian wrote: »

Can you name any athletics clubs that share your views on how prospective members are recruited?

Sorry, I missed this. No, I can't name any. I was clear enough with my posts and views on this. I am not sure exactly what their rules and guidelines are, or there primary reason to exist!

walshb

pug_ wrote: »

And what might those alternatives be if all sports clubs are to be reserved for the gifted and motivated competitor?

Think. I shouldn't have to spoon feed this to you. There's a big bad world out there with options for almost anything. A lot more options today and years gone by.

walshb

MrWalsh wrote: »

I think we are debating semantics.

You think that "club" means a certain thing. I dont. I think you can have a club where the people like to participate and have fun etc and that is just as valid as a club where the people are training for the Olympics.

Maybe it is semantics, but the clubs I was in where called boxing clubs. They were for boxers and those who stepped into the ring to box for the club in competition. I cannot say for other clubs, but I'd imagine they are very similar across many sports.

pug_

walshb wrote: »

Think. I shouldn't have to spoon feed this to you. There's a big bad world out there with options for almost anything. A lot more options today and years gone by.

No, please, spoon feed me. I'm interested in your opinion on this not my own imaginings of what your opinion might be.

Sacksian

walshb wrote: »

Sorry, I missed this. No, I can't name any. I was clear enough with my posts and views on this. I am not sure exactly what their rules and guidelines are, or there primary reason to exist!

So, would it be fair to say that - on this topic - you're posting from a position of ignorance of how athletics clubs in Ireland actually operate?

walshb

pug_ wrote: »

No, please, spoon feed me. I'm interested in your opinion on this not my own imaginings of what your opinion might be.

Three letters. G Y M!

Halloween Jack

walshb wrote: »

Think. I shouldn't have to spoon feed this to you. There's a big bad world out there with options for almost anything. A lot more options today and years gone by.

Thankfully those options involve sports clubs for people who aren't solely interested in serious competition

Halloween Jack

walshb wrote: »

Three letters. G Y M!

Why should people who can't/aren't interested in deadlifting to a competitive standard be allowed in gyms?

MrWalsh

walshb wrote: »

Three letters. G Y M!

They dont like it in my gym when I try to get a football team going in the weights section.

walshb

Sacksian wrote: »

So, would it be fair to say that - on this topic - you're posting from a position of ignorance of how athletics clubs in Ireland actually operate?

I suppose so. I guess I would be surprised and maybe a little disappointed that if I brought my son or daughter to an athletics club after realizing they had talent and pedigree to then find out that club caters for all sorts and that that talent and pedigree may never reach fruition because of this. Not saying that this happens, but clubs do only have finite resources. I'd hate to think that willing and talented people could be left wait while messers and wasters are given time. That is me coming from how I was brought up in the boxing club environment. Now, maybe the athletics clubs are completely different.