Just be honest with yourself. You're not a Catholic. That's ok.

Ghost Buster

The Backwards Man wrote: »

In the future atheism will be known as the counterweight religion, the yang to the yin, night to the day, Hardy to the Laurel.

One coin, two sides.

Atheism is religion as bald is a hair colour.

pablomakaveli

OP's obviously touched a nerve with some people. The OP's post was reasoned and isn't trying to force atheism down people throats.He's just asking to consider things more thoroughly when filling out a census.

People saying "i'm Catholic" without actually practicing or believing in the religion are hypocrites plain and simple. Catholicism isnt an ethnicity, it is a belief system which you should believe in if you want to label yourself as one.

catallus

It is more than a bit presumptuous to say that 88% of people don't know how to communicate.

And there is no other type of catholic other than "Roman", so it is just "catholic"!

endacl

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Because the opposite of Catholic is atheist?

Nope. Dogholic.

RobbieTheRobber

Knex. wrote: »

Does anyone really believe in that, though? Genuine question.

Even as a kid, back when I still had faith, that bit never stuck with me.

I'm the worst judge of what people really believe, this stuff all seems like nonsense to me.

Ghost Buster

crockholm wrote: »

I have a friend who says that he weighs 13 and a half stone,in truth,he would be about fifteen stone.Why does he say it? More pertinently-Why should I care?

Ought I Point out to him that he is,in my opinion not 13 and a half stone whenever the subject is brought up.

If I did,people might rightly label me an asshole for being so anal about it.

It's his business and once again, why should I care?

If there comes a question "How much do you weigh? on the census form and as a result of your friends delusional notions legislation is brought in not to bother making any seat in the country capable of bearing more than 13 stone then you would have to care.
Thats kinda how it is with the cultural catholic daftness we have in this country.

TheBeardedLady

crockholm wrote: »

Would that be because it was an historical event,in the sense that it happened,you were baptized catholic.To get that scrapped would be re-Writing history-no?

Well you could up 'till a few years ago and thousands did but they put a stop to it (I'm guessing that might've been why they put a stop to it). I was given some vague reason in a letter that I don't remember. I'll scan and post it later when I get home from work (and I remember to do it).

Point being, even if you wanted to officially leave and take yourself off the baptismal roll, you can't. I don't know any organisation that runs business that way, particularly when it wasn't actually you who signed yourself up to it in the first place. That isn't fair by any stretch of the imagination.

The anniversary of my baptism was published in the local bulletin a few years ago and I haven't been to mass of my own free will since about 1993 and I don't believe in the teachings of the Catholic church in anyway, shape or form and don't call myself Catholic...but I can't leave. Beyond nonsensical. I'm not a militant atheist and avoid these threads usually but fair is fair. The church aren't playing fair when it comes to this and I think it's justified that many of us are ticked off.

Ziphius

catallus wrote: »

It is more than a bit presumptuous to say that 88% of people don't know how to communicate.

And there is no other type of catholic other than "Roman", so it is just "catholic"!

The Church of Ireland is a catholic church, just not Roman Catholic.

Ghost Buster

RobertKK wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=333

Ah. The good old 'movearoo' post was a long time coming.
Can i assume you want:
Euro worth the same as the dollar- Moved to Finance
or
What song makes you say choooone- Moved to Music
or
How should 1916 be remembered- Moved to Politics or History?


This special pleading seems exclusive to catholic themed threads in AH
Funny dat.....

Ghost Buster

ChunkyLover54 wrote: »

I'm happy to identify myself as Catholic even though I don't practice and I have no supernatural beliefs. I was baptised and raised Catholic so I don't see any contradiction in this.

The problem with the OP is that he comes across as snotty and, ironically, preachy.

Wut?

Sleepy

I think most people ticking the Catholic box on the census aren't Catholics tbh.

IMO, there's a large number of them who don't believe in God, Jesus or anything that could be considered "Christian" and an even larger section that (once Catholic doctrine on transubstantiation, the sanctity of the "virgin" Mary, the rejection of sola scriptura, the necessity of meritorious works for salvation, purgatory etc. are explained to them*) would be far more accurately described as Protestant.

Just try telling them that they're a "dirty prod" though... :rolleyes:

Honestly, I don't think we should even record religious belief on the census. Any belief that's held by an adult that has no foundation in fact or reasoning is deserving of scorn, not respect.

*it's quite telling imo that most atheists seem to have a better knowledge of Catholic teaching than self professed "Catholics" in this country IMO.

spacetweek

Shenshen wrote: »

I am German, and I have.
However, I'm given to understand that if you were baptised in Ireland, you no longer have the option to opt-out. The church decided to not accept your letter of defection any more a few years back.

Not just Ireland - anywhere.
The rule is a Vatican rule so it applies to all Catholics.
You also cannot leave Islam.

crockholm

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Well you could up 'till a few years ago and thousands did but they put a stop to it (I'm guessing that might've been why they put a stop to it). I was given some vague reason in a letter that I don't remember. I'll scan and post it later when I get home from work (and I remember to do it).

Point being, even if you wanted to officially leave and take yourself off the baptismal roll, you can't. I don't know any organisation that runs business that way, particularly when it wasn't actually you who signed yourself up to it in the first place. That isn't fair by any stretch of the imagination.

The anniversary of my baptism was published in the local bulletin a few years ago and I haven't been to mass of my own free will since about 1993 and I don't believe in the teachings of the Catholic church in anyway, shape or form and don't call myself Catholic...but I can't leave. Beyond nonsensical. I'm not a militant atheist and avoid these threads usually but fair is fair. The church aren't playing fair when it comes to this and I think it's justified that many of us are ticked off.

Playing devils advocate now,but what they seem to be objecting is that you want to delete or re-write the events of that particular day,and they're just not allowing it.FWIW,I Believe you have the right to be seperated from the Church-if that means a cert acknowledging that the relationship has come to an end.

Just a pity that the Mormons will get you once you die sometime next Century.

the_monkey

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I think how you identify yourself your own personal choice and you shouldn't have to justify yourself to anyone.

The OP's thread is exactly why I dislike atheism. Not all atheists mind you, but it's hard not to feel some resentment to attitudes like the OP's.

Yeah resentment to the attitude of equal oppurtunity for education to ALL kids - regardless of parents belief.

Resentment to the disagreement of the RCC appalling attitude to gay people.

yeah, f*ck athiests how arrogant they are huh ?

We should all go back to believing the thin lipped angry little men dressed in black telling us all what to do ...

endacl

spacetweek wrote: »

You also cannot leave Islam.

You can, but the prescribed punishment means you leave everything else as well.

The worst that would happen here is that your mad auntie, the one with the gaff full of catpiss and crucifixes, wouldn't talk to you any more.

ChunkyLover54

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Wut?

Yep that's what I wrote. I think one can still identify oneself as Catholic even without having any supernatural beliefs. Still confused?

Knex*

Sleepy wrote: »

*it's quite telling imo that most atheists seem to have a better knowledge of Catholic teaching than self professed "Catholics" in this country IMO.

Probably stands to reason.

Not many things will shatter your belief as quickly as actually reading the Bible, imo.

endacl

ChunkyLover54 wrote: »

Yep that's what I wrote. I think one can still identify oneself as Catholic even without having any supernatural beliefs. Still confused?

Your '?' there at the end? Typo?

crockholm

Ghost Buster wrote: »

If there comes a question "How much do you weigh? on the census form and as a result of your friends delusional notions legislation is brought in not to bother making any seat in the country capable of bearing more than 13 stone then you would have to care.
Thats kinda how it is with the cultural catholic daftness we have in this country.

May I ask what particular laws are being drafted to cater solely for members of the catholic religion in Ireland now?

Ghost Buster

ChunkyLover54 wrote: »

Yep that's what I wrote. I think one can still identify oneself as Catholic even without having any supernatural beliefs. Still confused?

Yes.
Catholicism by its definition requires a certain set of beliefs which are all supernatural.
I get what youre saying but frankly its cobblers.
Anyone by all means is free to claim they are what ever they like, absolutely.
I can right now decide Im a tree but simply saying so does not make it so.

Ghost Buster

crockholm wrote: »

May I ask what particular laws are being drafted to cater solely for members of the catholic religion in Ireland now?

Currently?
None.
Previously - Divorce, education, contraception, health care, sexuality, alcohol laws, state broadcasting all have been influenced by our national religious leaning and many remain so.

kylith

catallus wrote: »

To say that you, for example, backwardsman, are nothing except a piece of meat that stands at 5foot something and weighs 14 stone or whatever and you are nothing else?

Can you not see that this is the very definition of Lucifer?

The Backwards Man is Lucifer!? By the hokey, I'd never have guessed!

ChunkyLover54 wrote: »

I'm happy to identify myself as Catholic even though I don't practice and I have no supernatural beliefs. I was baptised and raised Catholic so I don't see any contradiction in this.

Grand. Do you identify as a boy scout and a member of the u15 hurling team too?

Ghost Buster

kylith wrote: »

The Backwards Man is Lucifer!? By the hokey, I'd never have guessed!



Grand. Do you identify as a boy scout and a member of the u15 hurling team too?

I identify as a professional footballer.
I havent kicked a ball since i was about 12. I was rubbish then and Im worse now at 44.
But I can identify as a professional footballer and see no contradiction in this.

kylith

Ghost Buster wrote: »

I identify as a professional footballer.
I havent kicked a ball since i was about 12. I was rubbish then and Im worse now at 44.
But I can identify as a professional footballer and see no contradiction in this.

Nice to meet you, I'm a ballerina. I can't tell a plié from a jete, but I was signed up for it as a kid so I see no contradiction in this.

jester77

They should bring in a church tax like lots of other countries do. It would be interesting to see how many sign up in relation to what the census shows.

crockholm

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Currently?
None.
Previously - Divorce, education, contraception, health care, sexuality, alcohol laws, state broadcasting all have been influenced by our national religious leaning and many remain so.

Yup.The past,they say,is a different country.

So it still means not a jot whether one ticks the RCC box on census day because they are a believer,a cultural catholic,a troll,or someone who wants to stay on the good side of an old aunt whose house smells of cat piss.

spacetweek

NS77 wrote: »

Interesting blog post on this here:

[url=]http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/half-arsed-catholics-are-holding-ireland-back-395?utm_source=vicefbuk[/url]

Wow, that was one of the most infuriating articles I've read in a long time.
I can't decide which is worse, the imagined masochism, the fact that people only drink on St. Patrick's day as an act of defiance to the church, or the part where gay marriage is only being legalised because we saw a telly programme about what 'civilised behaviour' is in other countries and we thought we'd copy some of it. I have rarely wanted to punch someone so badly.

ChunkyLover54

Ghost Buster wrote: »

I identify as a professional footballer.
I havent kicked a ball since i was about 12. I was rubbish then and Im worse now at 44.
But I can identify as a professional footballer and see no contradiction in this.

kylith wrote: »

Nice to meet you, I'm a ballerina. I can't tell a plié from a jete, but I was signed up for it as a kid so I see no contradiction in this.

You're both very droll but that's not an accurate comparison. A religious upbringing is bound have a deeper formative effect on one's personality than football or ballet lessons (although I can't speak for other people).

Toto Wolfcastle

I don't generally have any time for atheists or Catholics who try to force their beliefs, or lack of, on other people but I don't think the OP's post is anything like that. I think it's perfectly reasonable.

I was brought up a Catholic, and a cultural Catholic at that. I made my communion and confirmation and got married in a church.

It's only in the last couple of years that I've actually thought about my beliefs. The conclusion I have come to is that I'm indifferent to religion. It plays no part in my life so now I would say that I have no religion.

I ticked Catholic in the last census. I wont in the next.

I've believed for a long time (long before I thought about my own beliefs) that communion and confirmation preparation should be done outside of school hours. I know of a couple of schools that have already started to do this. I think that will help separate those who are bringing their children up as Catholics because of their own beliefs from those who like the day out and the white dress. If people have to bring their children to a preparation class in their own time many of them just wont bother. The church will have people who are genuinely interested and schools can focus on academics. Win-win.

Polo_Mint

jester77 wrote: »

They should bring in a church tax like lots of other countries do. It would be interesting to see how many sign up in relation to what the census shows.

Germany collected nearly 10 Billion in 2010 in Church tax

Also

The church tax is only paid by members of the respective church. People who are not members of a church tax-collecting denomination do not have to pay it. Members of a religious community under public law may formally declare their wish to leave the community to state (not religious) authorities. With such a declaration, the obligation to pay church taxes ends. Some communities refuse to administer marriages and burials of (former) members who had declared to leave it.

These seems not the case in Ireland

kylith

crockholm wrote: »

Yup.The past,they say,is a different country.

So it still means not a jot whether one ticks the RCC box on census day because they are a believer,a cultural catholic,a troll,or someone who wants to stay on the good side of an old aunt whose house smells of cat piss.

But it does matter that they tick it. Ticking the RCC box on the census gives the bishops the power to say "We should be involved in this conversation on gay rights/abortion/whatever because we represent 84% of the people in the country" when they don't. It gives them the power to fight against multi denominational schools because '84% of people are Catholic and should have Catholic education'.

AudreyHepburn

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I think how you identify yourself your own personal choice and you shouldn't have to justify yourself to anyone.

The OP's thread is exactly why I dislike atheism. Not all atheists mind you, but it's hard not to feel some resentment to attitudes like the OP's.

What has it to do with atheism? Maybe op is a catholic.
There's priests out there saying the same thing

Akrasia

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Currently?
None.
Previously - Divorce, education, contraception, health care, sexuality, alcohol laws, state broadcasting all have been influenced by our national religious leaning and many remain so.

Actually, as we speak, a 'Admission to Schools Bill' is being put forward that will decide enrollment policies in schools, and they still maintain the right for state funded schools to discriminate against children from the wrong religion (or none)

kylith

ChunkyLover54 wrote: »

You're both very droll but that's not an accurate comparison. A religious upbringing is bound have a deeper formative effect on one's personality than football or ballet lessons (although I can't speak for other people).

I doubt it, or if it does it's not as positive a one. What I remember from my catholic upbringing is guilt, sin, hell, I am a sinner, I am not worthy.

What I remember from my ballet lessons is being taught posture and poise. Ghost Buster's footballing may well have sown the seeds of a healthy and active lifestyle.

suicide_circus

I would advise catholics to stop worrying what other people do in their bedrooms.

I would advise atheists to stop worrying about what other people write on their census forms.

Mickeroo

Ziphius wrote: »

The Church of Ireland is a catholic church, just not Roman Catholic.

But "Not Roman Catholic" is the definition of what makes a church protestant no? They refer to themselves as both Catholic & Protestant on that site.

Sleepy

kylith wrote: »

But it does matter that they tick it. Ticking the RCC box on the census gives the bishops the power to say "We should be involved in this conversation on gay rights/abortion/whatever because we represent 84% of the people in the country" when they don't. It gives them the power to fight against multi denominational schools because '84% of people are Catholic and should have Catholic education'.

This.

This is why many of us atheists are so vocally anti-Catholic. I'm having to confuse my 6 year old by telling her that her teacher is wrong and that God doesn't exist. I have a hard enough time getting her to believe that unicorns don't really exist, I don't need the education system I'm funding via taxation teaching her to believe in other fairy tales.

tastyt

It's funny to see atheists call people convenient Catholics if they dont go to mass every week or say the rosary daily.

There's nothing more convenient than being atheist. Sit on your hole and do nothing, and every now and then lecture people about how stupid they are and how they should be living.

For people who don't believe in anything or don't care, they seem to care an awful lot about other people's personal decisions which have nothing to do with them.

SparkySpitfire

crockholm wrote: »

Yup.The past,they say,is a different country.

So it still means not a jot whether one ticks the RCC box on census day because they are a believer,a cultural catholic,a troll,or someone who wants to stay on the good side of an old aunt whose house smells of cat piss.

Yes it does, to not consider your beliefs before you tick that box is beyond selfish.

Non-believers who tick that box in the next census will make it that much harder for me to get my future children in a secular school. It's not just an arbitrary tick of the box, it's information upon which social policy is drawn from. It's so important to be honest when filling out the census that I'm almost sure it's illegal to knowingly write false info on it?

SparkySpitfire

tastyt wrote: »

It's funny to see atheists call people convenient Catholics if they dont go to mass every week or say the rosary daily.

There's nothing more convenient than being atheist. Sit on your hole and do nothing, and every now and then lecture people about how stupid they are and how they should be living.

For people who don't believe in anything or don't care, they seem to care an awful lot about other people's personal decisions which have nothing to do with them.

Except it does affect us. It affects everyone what you write on your census.

pablomakaveli

suicide_circus wrote: »

I would advise catholics to stop worrying what other people do in their bedrooms.

I would advise atheists to stop worrying about what other people write on their census forms.

What people do in there bedrooms doesn't impact on anyone else.

As has been shown in several posts on this thread what people write on their census forms does.

Ghost Buster

suicide_circus wrote: »

I would advise catholics to stop worrying what other people do in their bedrooms.

I would advise atheists to stop worrying about what other people write on their census forms.

What people write on their census forms is what give Iona, The RCC and Bishops the perceived right to involve them selves in other peoples bedroom activities in the first place.

kylith

suicide_circus wrote: »

I would advise catholics to stop worrying what other people do in their bedrooms.

I would advise atheists to stop worrying about what other people write on their census forms.

Good advice. It's not like what people write on census forms influences stuff like education policy or anything. Oh wait, it totally does.

tastyt wrote: »

It's funny to see atheists call people convenient Catholics if they dint go to mass every week or say the rosary daily.

There's nothing more convenient than being atheist. Sit on your hole and do nothing, and every now and then lecture people about how stupid they are and how they should be living.

For people who don't believe in anything or don't care, they seem to care an awful lot about other people's personal decisions which have nothing to do with them.

Again, if religiousness didn't effect us we wouldn't have anything to say about it, but it does; from being told that we should move house to get near a non-religious school (many of which are oversubscribed with "religious" people's kids), to it taking me 15 minutes to convince the woman in admissions in the hospital that I did purposefully put 'none' under the 'religion' part on the form, to having holy joes telling me that I should be denied medical treatment if I happen to be pregnant.

If other people want to paint their arses blue and worship Nargaranath the Blue Arsed I couldn't give less of a toss, but when they start saying that I have to sign up if I want my child educated I'm going to get annoyed.

Ghost Buster

tastyt wrote: »

It's funny to see atheists call people convenient Catholics if they dont go to mass every week or say the rosary daily.

There's nothing more convenient than being atheist. Sit on your hole and do nothing, and every now and then lecture people about how stupid they are and how they should be living.

For people who don't believe in anything or don't care, they seem to care an awful lot about other people's personal decisions which have nothing to do with them.

Isnt that mass and prayer?

somefeen

FFS why is there a double standard in terms of people being allowed their identity.

If I say I am Bisexual, then I am bisexual and no one should dispute that
If I say I am a woman despite being born a man, then I am a woman and I expect to be seen as such
If I say I am Irish then I am Irish

But if you say you are catholic then for some reason its OK to dispute that? Why? Accept people for what they want to be accepted as. Give them the same tolerance you expect from them.

Joe prim

jester77 wrote: »

They should bring in a church tax like lots of other countries do. It would be interesting to see how many sign up in relation to what the census shows.

Great idea, but where would they install the meter? Come to think of it, is there a charge for Holy Water? We should be told.

Shenshen

spacetweek wrote: »

Not just Ireland - anywhere.
The rule is a Vatican rule so it applies to all Catholics.
You also cannot leave Islam.

Well, in Germany, they have to provide the option to leave the church as they will charge you a membership fee, collected from your paycheck each month. I believe the tax office (where you need to register your exit) sends correspondence to the parish where you were baptised and they are required to make note of it in their records.

Turtwig

The problem with people filling out the census as 'Catholic' is that it gives the Catholic hierarchy an overwhelming monopoly on just about everything. Every issue in society requires an opinion from a Bishop/Priest. This is somewhat unfair on other religions, even other denominations of Christianity. If you were to follow to the news you'd be mistaken for thinking all the church leaders of Christian denominations are against SSM. It's mostly just the RCC. Because the Census is so RCC dominant the RCC can still carry lobbying influence and power.
People should have that in mind when considering what they self identify as.

I don't think it's ever fair to tell people that what they self identify as ideologically is correct/incorrect. Even if it may appear that they thoroughly misunderstand what that labels means.

pablomakaveli

somefeen wrote: »

FFS why is there a double standard in terms of people being allowed their identity.

If I say I am Bisexual, then I am bisexual and no one should dispute that
If I say I am a woman despite being born a man, then I am a woman and I expect to be seen as such
If I say I am Irish then I am Irish

But if you say you are catholic then for some reason its OK to dispute that? Why? Accept people for what they want to be accepted as. Give them the same tolerance you expect from them.

Because you're gender,sexuality and ethnicity are something you can't change or dispute.

Religion is an ideology unlike the above. You should have to believe in an ideology to claim you are part of it or you're just a hypocrite if you don't.

Sleepy

somefeen wrote: »

FFS why is there a double standard in terms of people being allowed their identity.

If I say I am Bisexual, then I am bisexual and no one should dispute that
If I say I am a woman despite being born a man, then I am a woman and I expect to be seen as such
If I say I am Irish then I am Irish

But if you say you are catholic then for some reason its OK to dispute that? Why? Accept people for what they want to be accepted as. Give them the same tolerance you expect from them.

Because the very institution you're claiming membership of doesn't allow you to do so if you don't follow all of their dogma. They'll happily claim to represent you when lobbying government but they'll consider you doomed to hell if you don't follow their teachings to the letter (or seek absolution via confession).

BTW, one of your analogies is wrong too: if someone without any Irish ancestry or an Irish passport claims to be Irish, they'll fairly quickly be told they're not. Even many Americans with Irish ancestry are derided when they claim to be Irish.