Just be honest with yourself. You're not a Catholic. That's ok.

Eugene Norman

Shenshen wrote: »

Despite a number of believers having said so on this very thread? Arrogant, much?

I really dont have the time to read all the thread. The Angries on the last 4 pages were atheists.

Shenshen

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I really dont have the time to read all the thread. The Angries on the last 4 pages were atheists.

Check again. You seem to have missed a few posts.

Danjamin1

Eugene Norman wrote:

I really dont have the time to read all the thread. The Angries on the last 4 pages were atheists.

What's the point of contributing if you're not going to read the discussion?

Zamboni

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Why are you so bothered about how people categorise their Religion ? What business is it off yours??

I explain it here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95016362&postcount=152

Son Of A Vidic

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I think how you identify yourself your own personal choice and you shouldn't have to justify yourself to anyone.

The OP's thread is exactly why I dislike atheism. Not all atheists mind you, but it's hard not to feel some resentment to attitudes like the OP's.

I have to agree you, especially when I read such generalising and assumptive nonsense in the OP. I saw a lot of death and dying in a former profession and you would be amazed how many avowed atheists turn to a God, when faced with their imminent mortality and demise. But maybe dying of a Haematological blood disorder will do that to people. I couldn't care less about an individuals religious beliefs or lack of, as long as they don't shove these beliefs or any generalisation nonsense down my throat.

Eugene Norman

Danjamin1 wrote: »

What's the point of contributing if you're not going to read the discussion?

Went back further. The angries are still the atheists.

Reading 25% of a thread is a good sample of the discussion including replies to previous people. If any "real" Catholic got upset by cultural Catholics, it didn't make much impact.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I think there are a few issues at play here, Catholicism in Ireland is different from in other countries.

Around the foundation of the state, it was very successfully constructed as an inherent and important part of Irish national identity. There was a top-down and bottom-up emphasis on Catholic ethos throughout the twentieth century, people feel their Catholic identity more keenly, I think, because of how interlocked it's become with national identity.

The stranglehold the Catholic church (as opposed to the Catholic faith, which really is a pretty profound and complex faith once you get past the campy, baroque window-dressing) had on the Irish state during the twentieth century was more extreme than the hold it had on many other states; because of our geographical and deliberate economic isolation, because of our poverty and lack of education, because of partition and Catholic oppression in the north, arguably because of the trauma suffered from the famine onwards...add in a State that had an unhealthily close relationship with the Church and you got a perfect storm where the RCC (and like I say, I have huge respect for the actual Catholic faith as opposed to the church) facilitated and participated in the beating, raping, imprisoning and shunning of a large portion of the population for several decades with near total impunity. I know this happened in other countries too, but the legacy of bitterness and trauma does seem to be particularly acute here.

This is the island that bequeathed to the world the immortal question "Yeah, but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?". Catholicism=Republicanism (or at least=not-Unionism), which is another very important part of a lot of people's identities.

You don't have to do or believe everything perfectly to be a Catholic, but I think the point is that you're supposed to be trying. Try, fail, repent, confess, try harder, fail better: that's good, that's Catholicism. Don't bother, don't repent, don't believe, but tick the box: that is not anything more than cultural Catholicism at best. The census didn't ask "what's your cultural heritage?", I think for a lot of Irish people "Catholic" is the most honest answer to that. It asked "what's your religion".

Shenshen

Shenshen wrote: »

Most Irish I know would get annoyed if they found themselves faced with someone from Idaho swearing blind that he's Irish because his great-grandmother was from "somewhere around Galway, can't remember what the place is called".

Except, I gave the example of an Irish person naturalised elsewhere.

He lives in Canada, his wife is a Canadian, they sew maple leaves on their backpacks and they're crazy about ice hockey. Ireland is a now pretty irrelevant to his life, nor does he consider himself Irish in any meaningful way, but it is somewhere he has fond memories about, and that upbringing has positively shaped his life.

I don't see why it should matter to anybody but him. Imagine he ticked 'Irish' on the Canadian census. Imagine yourself getting worked up about that. Imagine how pathetic that would be.

Macavity.

It seems like any criticism of faith in any possible way (however reasonable) will have you labeled as "one of those damn atheists" or in some cases an "islamophobe".

ITT: Freedom of Speech 0. Semantics 1.

TheBeardedLady

crockholm wrote: »

Playing devils advocate now,but what they seem to be objecting is that you want to delete or re-write the events of that particular day,and they're just not allowing it.FWIW,I Believe you have the right to be seperated from the Church-if that means a cert acknowledging that the relationship has come to an end.

Just a pity that the Mormons will get you once you die sometime next Century.

That list is not only an account of the events of the day, it's a list of members of the organisation which, like any organisation, should be updated as requested. Many left up until about 5 or 6 years ago, so it was possible up to that point but now, according to what I've typed below, it's not allowed under Canon Law. My boyfriend removed himself from the register in Spain around the same time I tried to do the same in Ireland.
I've got the letter I received here beside me and here's what it says:

"The Canon Law of the Catholic Church was recently changed on this matter and it is no longer possible as it was for some years, to make a formal defection from the Church.

The law concerning defection, introduced in 1983, was designed especially to address the right to marry. The intention was to facilitate the exercise of the right to marry by those Catholics who, due to their estrangement from the Church, were unlikely to wish a Church ceremony. The measure was thus to ensure that any marriage entered into after formal defection would be valid in the eyes of the Catholic Church. You will understand that this was something important to a spouse who would still have been a practising Catholic.

In the last few years, a considerable number of Catholics wished to make an act of formally defecting from the Church. They have done so for a variety of reason such as: as for of protest against or rejection of what the Church teaches; as a response to the reprehensible events surrounding and including the sexual abuse pf children by priests and religious.

Many in the past have left the Church without following a formal process. While those de facto defections do no have legal effect, the Church would obviously hope that the desire of those who wish to leave the Church would be respected. The Archdiocese of Dublin now maintains a register for those who wish their de facto defection from the Church to be recorded. As a response to your request, your name has now been recorded in this register"


Edit: I just realised it said it was due to a change in CANON Law, so edited the above. If you believe the wishes of those who want to leave should be respected, why did you change the Canon Law related to it????

_Whimsical_

Akrasia wrote: »

The question on the form was worded very poorly

It asked 'What is your religion?' and then followed it with boxes to tick, and then at the very end it had 'no religion' box



What the questions should have said was

1. Do you practice a religion?
2. If yes, what is your religion?

A simple change like that would have made the information much more trustworthy

I'm inclined to agree with you here but then I can't help thinking from the result that for a majority of people it must not be as simple as whether they attend mass weekly or adhere to every obligatory practice. If it's something else like living by the central tenants or values or an appreciation of teachings and traditions then maybe they still want that reflected in their society and want that voice heard in debate.

It's a strange one. At first I thought it was crazy and obviously inaccurate but then I had to think there's no other similarly large majority that I'd dismiss. Even in parsing it out by asking more detailed questions as you suggest I can't help thinking there's a chance we'd be overlooking something significant by bypassing it and ignoring it completely.

Danjamin1

What the OP proposed doesn't really infringe on anyone else's beliefs, people are entitled to believe what they like. All that's asked is that people actually think before they blindly state that they are Catholic. I've mentioned I'm going to get married in a Catholic ceremony despite not considering myself Catholic because this doesn't hurt anyone, I won't baptise any children I may have as it is something that should be a personal choice which I don't feel comfortable making for someone else.

Eugene Norman

Macavity. wrote: »

It seems like any criticism of faith in any possible way (however reasonable) will have you labeled as "one of those damn atheists" or in some cases an "islamophobe".

ITT: Freedom of Speech 0. Semantics 1.

Are you confusing debate with lack of free speech?.

Lau2976

Zamboni wrote: »

There are also statistics showing that over 30% of couples did not get married in a church in Ireland last year. Life will be difficult for them when they have children as the majority of state funded schools are allowed to refuse children without baptism certs.

My experience has nearly always been that couples who don't get married in a church still have a christening, it is very much a cultural thing.

WeHaveToGoBack

Knex. wrote: »

Does anyone really believe in that[transubstantiation], though? Genuine question.

Even as a kid, back when I still had faith, that bit never stuck with me.

No, which is exactly why they shouldn't be considered Catholics.

And if they do believe it, then they should be dropped off at the nearest mental hospital, after a test is carried out on said "body of Christ" which I'm pretty sure will prove it is not flesh.

Shenshen

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Except, I gave the example of an Irish person naturalised elsewhere.

He lives in Canada, his wife is a Canadian, they sew maple leaves on their backpacks and they're crazy about ice hockey. Ireland is a now pretty irrelevant to his life, nor does he consider himself Irish in any meaningful way, but it is somewhere he has fond memories about, and that upbringing has positively shaped his life.

I don't see why it should matter to anybody but him. Imagine he ticked 'Irish' on the Canadian census. Imagine yourself getting worked up about that. Imagine how pathetic that would be.

I'm not getting worked up, it doesn't affect me at all. I don't have children and don't think I ever will.

But I've met a number of actual Catholics who got rather upset by it, and people in this thread have voiced the same opinion. And I would agree with them, it's a rather impolite thing and disrespectful to believers.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Are you confusing debate with lack of free speech?.

Are you confusing "debate" with:

"People should consider the implications of identifying as Catholic, especially when they're not practicing"

"ATHEISTS ARE SO ANNOYING I AM SO A CATHOLIC SHUT UP"

Eugene Norman

Baylor Noisy Stimulation wrote: »

Are you confusing "debate" with:

"People should consider the implications of identifying as Catholic, especially when they're not practicing"

"ATHEISTS ARE SO ANNOYING I AM SO A CATHOLIC SHUT UP"

What i see is the exact opposite of course.

HOW DARE PEOPLE SIGN FORMS IN A WAY I DISAGREE WITH.

and

We'll sign them how we please, if we consider ourselves cultural catholics, so be it.

Eugene Norman

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm not getting worked up, it doesn't affect me at all. I don't have children and don't think I ever will.

But I've met a number of actual Catholics who got rather upset by it, and people in this thread have voiced the same opinion. And I would agree with them, it's a rather impolite thing and disrespectful to believers.

Can somebody link to an actual upset Catholic in this thread? Someone who says

"I am a believer, and I don't like the cultural Catholics" rather than
"I am an atheist and I don't like the cultural Catholics".

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Eugene Norman wrote: »

What i see is the exact opposite of course.

HOW DARE PEOPLE SIGN FORMS IN A WAY I DISAGREE WITH.

and

We'll sign them how we please, if we consider ourselves cultural catholics, so be it.

Well it's probably fairest to say the truth lies somewhere between our respective interpretations of the thread, tbh :pac:

Baylor Noisy Stimulation

Baylor Noisy Stimulation wrote: »

Catholicism=Republicanism (or at least=not-Unionism), which is another very important part of a lot of people's identities.

Somewhere in Paradise, Tone, Emmet, Markiewicz, Hobson, Casement, Childers, Ernest Blythe, Capt White and Sean O'Casey just vomited.

Eutow

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Can somebody link to an actual upset Catholic in this thread? Someone who says

"I am a believer, and I don't like the cultural Catholics" rather than
"I am an atheist and I don't like the cultural Catholics".

Here you go, quite simple when you read.

lukesmom wrote: »

I totally agree with the op. I can't understand why people go along with the Catholic traditions like church weddings/baptism when they never step foot inside a church otherwise. What's the point????? I go to mass weekly and that is my own perogitive and beliefs but thousands pretend they are Catholics just to get the kids into schools and to please parents/in laws when getting married. Worse still having your little girl/boy make their communion when they receive no religious teachings outside of the home I.e going to mass etc, just so little Mary can dress up like her friends and not be left out. Sigh

The_Pretender

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Can somebody link to an actual upset Catholic in this thread? Someone who says

"I am a believer, and I don't like the cultural Catholics" rather than
"I am an atheist and I don't like the cultural Catholics".

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95016923&postcount=179

This post right here.

EDIT: Eutow got in just before me

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Somewhere in Paradise, Tone, Emmet, Markiewicz, Hobson, Casement, Childers, Ernest Blythe, Capt White and Sean O'Casey just vomited.

I know, but it was a pretty successful PR job that deValera and co managed. I'm talking about how people feel about their Catholic identities. At least in the North and border counties, and in a few pockets of the Republic, it's a highly politicised thing.

shruikan2553

Eugene Norman wrote: »

What i see is the exact opposite of course.

HOW DARE PEOPLE SIGN FORMS IN A WAY I DISAGREE WITH.

and

We'll sign them how we please, if we consider ourselves cultural catholics, so be it.

Yeah...

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Precisely because it annoys the new atheist I'll stick to calling myself Catholic although I haven't believed since I was 8.

And this is what you call "debate"

Zamboni

Lau2976 wrote: »

My experience has nearly always been that couples who don't get married in a church still have a christening, it is very much a cultural thing.

It's a fear of no school place thing.
I know couples who have no real belief in Catholicism or god and reluctantly baptise their children for a state funded school place. This is so sad
I feel so sorry for the obviously frustrated priests during these ceremonies. They know that the participants have no commitment to the church. The attendees have no idea of etiquette, times to stand, kneel, or sit and don't know the variety of responses psalms or prayers.
We are all being let down by this. Christians and non-Christians alike.

wench

Macy0161 wrote: »

The CSO (maybe again due to the influence or perceived influence of the Church) have been pretty slow to address this imo. The tick box religion question is a pretty meaningless stat, given the way church attendances have been going. It'll be disappointing it they don't address this with some question about practicing a faith. (e.g. how many times outside of family ceremonies/ school, have each in the household attended mass/ prayer service/ service of worship).

The CSO worship at the altar of the Almighty Time Series.

Changing the question would break the link to previous answers, and that is something they are loath to do.

Magenta

Polo_Mint wrote: »

Would I tick a box saying im Catholic - Yes, See Above

Polo_Mint wrote: »

If people selected their religion later on in life come tomorrow, in the next 20 years I believe you would have 100s of thousands of people with no religious beliefs and not registered to any religion.

And....? So what?

Polo_Mint wrote: »

For all the people who are baptised Catholic and say they are an Atheist, Have they actually contacted the Church to denounce their Religion?

If they haven't then they are registered Catholics and should tick the box.

In Ireland you can't.
A Catholic telling others what to do despite not knowing what they're even talking about. How unusual.

Lau2976

Zamboni wrote: »

It's a fear of no school place thing.
I know couples who have no real belief in Catholicism or god and reluctantly baptise their children for a state funded school place. This is so sad
I feel so sorry for the obviously frustrated priests during these ceremonies. They know that the participants have no commitment to the church. The attendees have no idea of etiquette, times to stand, kneel, or sit and don't know the variety of responses psalms or prayers.
We are all being let down by this. Christians and non-Christians alike.

I don't disagree with getting rid of that, i was never baptised as a child and I know my parents were particlarly worried about it. But I do think part of it would be a cultural thing, I know multiple people myself who held baptisms for the party because they identify as catholic without practicing it, like i identify as jewish without really practising it.

Eugene Norman

Since Dawkins is a cultural anglican I can't see what the fuss is about.

Delirium

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Since Dawkins is a cultural anglican I can't see what the fuss is about.

Really doubt he ticks Anglican in the English census.

beks101

People are lazy. They will sit in the pub all day having all kinds of critical debates about the status quo but ultimately avoid ever doing anything to upset it.

That and we live in a fish bowl and don't like the idea of being fodder for gossip.

People will continue to marry in churches and baptise their kids and bitch about how obsolete the church is but would probably still find themselves praying to God if their plane goes down.

We are creatures of habit and we don't trust change.

Eugene Norman

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Yeah...

And this is what you call "debate"

Yes, yes it is. Although that was more a statement, being my first foray into the thread. Statements, I believe are not illegal under the terms of the forum charter.

(I am not sure that quoting something and saying "is that a debate" is much of a debate either, but lets leave that pass.)

I would describe myself cultural catholic much in the same way as Dawkins describes himself as a cultural Anglican ( which he very much is), or an atheist orange order member would describe himself as a cultural protestant. This is true even though I grew up in a largely atheist family, and didn't spend much time at Catholic schools -- with the exception of two years or so.

Its probably fair to say the modern New Atheist, influenced by the Dawkins, Hitchens et al. are cultural protestants though; that is they are influenced by a view of "history" which over over-emphasises the harshness of Catholicism in Britain pre-reformation, downplays the protestant revolution -- a revolution and religiosity unmatched until the Taleban or ISIS, and fetishes the Enlightenment which in fact killed millions.

the rather excellent Camille Paglia sees herself as a cultural Catholic ( or a Catholic Pagan)

The angry mob of New Atheism leave me cold. And isn't there a forum where they can all get very angry indeed together?

Zamboni

Eugene Norman wrote: »

The angry mob of New Atheism leave me cold. And isn't there a forum where they can all get very angry indeed together?

I'm sorry that is what you are getting from this thread.
It is really to raise awareness of the practical implications to future parents that their current self identification can affect how the children will access education. Outlined (non-angrily) here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95016362&postcount=152

I don't get all this "atheism" stuff.. Sure the opening post could have been written by a priest appealing for less fakers.

Seriously, reread it as a priest before going off an "atheism" rant.

Zamboni

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't get all this "atheism" stuff.. Sure the opening post could have been written by a priest appealing for less fakers.

Seriously, reread it as a priest before going off an "atheism" rant.

To be fair, a priest would have just cause to write the OP.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95017959&postcount=227

Zillah

This whole "I can call myself anything I want" thing is so utterly childish. Words mean things. I can't go around calling myself a toaster because I am not what the world generally understands a toaster to be.

If you think the Pope is a silly old man, you don't go to mass, don't believe Jesus is your personal lord and saviour etc, then you are not a Catholic - or even a Christian - and calling yourself a Catholic makes no sense, and I cannot for the life of me manage any disposition other than some mix of contempt and confusion for anyone that would insist otherwise.

Your weird feelings around giving yourself a title that makes no sense shouldn't count more than reality.

catallus

The pagan hordes, in their wilful blindness, revel in their sinfulness; but that is not enough to sate the demons of avarice and pride in their collective soul! They are dazzled at the bliss of the faithful as one is dazzled by the brilliance of the sun, and the arid despair which is their ultimate lot causes such baleful wailing and desperate gnashing of teeth, who knows in what circle of hell they languish! Knowing their fate is due to their own nescience, how can they bear to know their true God?!!

kowloon

I know two people who have told me they don't believe in god at all and another who isn't sure but 'definitely doesn't believe in some of the weirder Catholic stuff'. They go to mass because it's what they've always done and the parish is their way of being part of the community, much like the pub or the GAA club. The Holy Trinity of rural life. Electro-bitch's post is spot on; church, state and culture are a tangled mess.

Delirium

catallus wrote: »

The pagan hordes, in their wilful blindness, revel in their sinfulness; but that is not enough to sate the demons of avarice and pride in their collective soul! They are dazzled at the bliss of the faithful as one is dazzled by the brilliance of the sun, and the arid despair which is their ultimate lot causes such baleful wailing and desperate gnashing of teeth, who knows in what circle of hell they languish! Knowing their fate is due to their own nescience, how can they bear to know their true God?!!

3/10.

beauf

Zamboni wrote: »

I'm sorry that is what you are getting from this thread.
It is really to raise awareness of the practical implications to future parents that their current self identification can affect how the children will access education. Outlined (non-angrily) here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95016362&postcount=152

In a thread with a title about being honest. You should have made that blatantly clear in the title and the original post.

There was no need for the merry go around about religion. Its not about religion. Its about school places. But you've gone from A to B via Z.

Macavity.

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Are you confusing debate with lack of free speech?.

No, I'm pointing out that a lot of posts are merely semantics and whataboutery, and that of which you call "debate", are at best, a pathetic attempt to silence others with valid and reasonable concerns regarding various religions.

SparkySpitfire

crockholm wrote: »

And you want to achieve this for you future Children how exactly?Have the thought police run tests? Lie -detector tests? A quiz on Canon-Law?:pac:

Don't worry about the kids,they'll be all right wherever they are.My siblings and I had Nuns teaching us in school and all bar one are good atheists/agnostics

It's called being honest. Something God would have you do rather than "bear false witness".

I also went to a Catholic school and was scarred for life. If things don't change here and fast, I'm out. And I'm certainly not the only one who will be.

SparkySpitfire

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Precisely because it annoys the new atheist I'll stick to calling myself Catholic although I haven't believed since I was 8.

Yeah go ahead and do that. Give the rest of the 5 year olds in the country a run for their money in the biggest tantrum competition.

You might even win a hat.

Zamboni

beauf wrote: »

In a thread with a title about being honest. You should have made that blatantly clear in the title and the original post.

There was no need for the merry go around about religion. Its not about religion. Its about school places. But you've gone from A to B via Z.

I do indeed mention this in the first paragraph of the OP.

Ghost Buster

catallus wrote: »

The pagan hordes, in their wilful blindness, revel in their sinfulness; but that is not enough to sate the demons of avarice and pride in their collective soul! They are dazzled at the bliss of the faithful as one is dazzled by the brilliance of the sun, and the arid despair which is their ultimate lot causes such baleful wailing and desperate gnashing of teeth, who knows in what circle of hell they languish! Knowing their fate is due to their own nescience, how can they bear to know their true God?!!

Oh look. You dont know what a pagan is.

beauf

Zamboni wrote: »

If I did that it would have been moved to the parenting forum.
This is purposely targeting future parents and the wider user base of AH. I do indeed mention this in the first paragraph of the OP.

You need to more than mention it. If you get school places where you want, religion becomes a non issue. If its school places that is the sole objective.

You need to influence the school board who dictate ethos and enrolment policy. They can change those without changes to anything else.

At least one school operates a positive discrimination/quota to encourage diversity.

orestes

The vast majority of the Irish catholic population today are protestants who don't understand the difference between catholicism and protestantism due to generations of secterian madness, and think that the only alternative to catholicism is athiesm.

crockholm

SparkySpitfire wrote: »

It's called being honest. Something God would have you do rather than "bear false witness".

I also went to a Catholic school and was scarred for life. If things don't change here and fast, I'm out. And I'm certainly not the only one who will be.

As a human being,I know when to,and when not to use honesty,it is an atavistic trait we have. As an agnostic teethering on the edge of atheism,I find that what "God" wants does not reflect my decisions or how I got there.

Now the next bit is contentious,but please bear with me,I do not wish to diminish any hurt that you experienced during your schooldays.
I get the feeling that you are younger than I am (36) and would therefore find it strange that you could have been subjected to such brutality,done by the religious orders that has henceforth scarred your Life.

This debate aside,I hope that you can be at Peace with yourself someday and don't suffer in silence.

Ghost Buster

catallus wrote: »

The pagan hordes, in their wilful blindness, revel in their sinfulness; but that is not enough to sate the demons of avarice and pride in their collective soul! They are dazzled at the bliss of the faithful as one is dazzled by the brilliance of the sun, and the arid despair which is their ultimate lot causes such baleful wailing and desperate gnashing of teeth, who knows in what circle of hell they languish! Knowing their fate is due to their own nescience, how can they bear to know their true God?!!

Oh look. You dont know what a pagan is.