Issue with Tenant!

the goon

Hi, my mother by accident rather than design became a landlord as there is a two bedroom apartment annex to her house. I have dealt with it for years on her behalf as it is really too much for her.

Anyways over twenty years we have never had any problems and have only had 5 different tenants during that time (all stayed at least 3 years). Everything has been done by the book, leases registered etc. The apartment is really nice, fully repainted, maintained during every tenancy and furnished with good quality pieces. It is also in a very nice location and there is no problem letting it.

Now the problem! We let it in November to a couple with a 10 month old. They are very quiet and aside from some clutter outside they have been no problem. On Monday they told us that there was a water mark after appearing in the ceiling and so I arranged for a plumber to come and sort it.

When he came there was no-one home and so my mother let him in to the apartment. When he came out he told her the place was an awful mess. I called that lunch time to talk to the tenant and when he let me in the place was an absolute mess!! Every square inch of ground was covered. There was crumpled tissue on the stairs, an empty antibiotic bottle and other bottles lying on the ground so on so on.

The balcony had food waste in a bag with alot spilling over onto the ground, there were bottles in the gutter and all sorts!!There was some sort of box with what looked like earth covered with mould in it.

I have asked the tenant to clean up and allow me to come back to inspect the apartment. At the time he was abrasive stating that while it was a mess, it was not dirty. I explained it wasn't being maintained to the standard it was in when they moved in and that, actually it was dirty.

Today he has come back asking for 8 days notice when someone is entering the flat. Fair enough, although this was the only instance where it has happened without them being present and I would deem a potential leak urgent. Neither I or my mother was actually in the apartment, just the plumber who highlighted it to us.

I am concerned going forward about their suitability as tenants given the state of the place and their attitude given the fact that they are living next to my elderly mother.

Any advice as to what to do would be really appreciated. I had them sign the lease linked below and from this, it seems I might be able to activate a break clause with appropriate notice:

http://www.irishlandlord.com/documents/l/Lease%20irishlandlord.pdf

As I said, this is the only property we try to do everything through the book. We could definitely do with some advice from people with more experience.

The_Morrigan

As a gentle reminder, legal advice cannot be sought or given here. Seeking advice on break clauses from a legal agreement will not be permitted here.

OP if you need legal help here, talk to a solr, any other advice that the regulars may have is welcome but please keep within the remit of the charter & site rules.

Thank you

the goon

Sorry, didn't realise that!

MarkAnthony

You need, in future, to add in a proper regime of inspections.

Also lease found on da internet, not ideal - I would seek proper legal advice before doing anything.

Mrs OBumble

OP, I don't think they have to keep the place in the same state that they got it from you at all times:- they just have to return it to you in that state at the end.

And I'm not sure that you'd be successful in breaking the lease just because you now think they're unsuitable (but didn't before): provided they have complied with your reminder to "To keep the hall, passages and staircase (if any) leading to the property, and drains, free from
obstruction and the chimneys swept as often as necessary." - they're now not doing anything wrong.

However, if there is a baby/toddler in the place, and you don't think that child has adequate care (every floor covered with stuff = nowhere for it to crawl or learn to walk) you may want to report that as a child welfare issue. More info about this here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/services_and_supports_for_children/child_abuse.html

burkey2k0

According to the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, and also on Page 11 of the lease you linked:

"5. The Landlord can terminate this Tenancy Agreement, without specifying the grounds, at any time during the first 6 months by giving 28 days written notice to the Tenant"

It's hard, especially since they have a ten month old, but if it's only been 5 months and they've already created a mess, might just be the way to go.

If you approach them in a nice way and express to them your concerns along with a deadline to clean the place up I don't think anyone would think you're being harsh.

MarkAnthony

burkey2k0 wrote: »

According to the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, and also on Page 11 of the lease you linked:

"5. The Landlord can terminate this Tenancy Agreement, without specifying the grounds, at any time during the first 6 months by giving 28 days written notice to the Tenant"

It's hard, especially since they have a ten month old, but if it's only been 5 months and they've already created a mess, might just be the way to go.

If you approach them in a nice way and express to them your concerns along with a deadline to clean the place up I don't think anyone would think you're being harsh.

It's a safety feature of the RTA but for goodness sake seek legal advice first.

The_Morrigan

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

OP, I don't think they have to keep the place in the same state that they got it from you at all times:- they just have to return it to you in that state at the end.

And I'm not sure that you'd be successful in breaking the lease just because you now think they're unsuitable (but didn't before): provided they have complied with your reminder to "To keep the hall, passages and staircase (if any) leading to the property, and drains, free from
obstruction and the chimneys swept as often as necessary." - they're now not doing anything wrong.

However, if there is a baby/toddler in the place, and you don't think that child has adequate care (every floor covered with stuff = nowhere for it to crawl or learn to walk) you may want to report that as a child welfare issue. More info about this here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/services_and_supports_for_children/child_abuse.html

Could you please keep your advice within the remit of this forum. Sending the OP a link in relation to child abuse is not appropriate here.

hfallada

Im sorry but if a tenant is messy during a tenancy, its none of your concern, as long as the place is spotless when they move out. There is nothing of concern in your post eg heavy stains. There is nothing in your post that cant be cleaned without a good cleaning. People are messy, thats their nature. My parents had a house that wasnt cleaned for 4 years, with students in it. They didnt care that the place wasnt cleaned, as its the tenants home. It was professional cleaned when they moved it and the house was perfect again.

I dont get the whole "accidental landlord" if she has been one for the last 20 years. You should should read up on the rules and regulations of being a LL. Personally I think evicting a tenant over being messy in their own home, is a bit extreme and controlling.

the goon

Thanks all for the replies. I m not sure what is ok to say and what is not. However when I wrote the original post, I deliberately left out a previous event so as not to prejudice anyone.

That said, two weeks before the situation with the mess, I went into my mother's garden shed to get the lawnmover out only to find the three piece suite from the apartment in there. Now its a garden shed with a leaky old roof. Nobody asked if it could be moved out and most certainly if we were asked, we wouldn't have thrown it in the garden shed. As I said in my original post, we put good quality stuff in the apartment.

On that occasion I talked with tenants and explained that they need to discuss these kind of things with us first and that it wasn't suitable to put it in the shed. We try to be accomodating so we moved it into a room in the house until we figure out what to do.

We aren't interfering people, I have no interest in seeing them from one end of the week to the next. That said, the mess is slightly more than simply clutter.

I take on board what the moderator has said, will seek legal advice and won't make any further comment. Again thanks all for those who have contributed.

athtrasna

Do they have a fixed term lease? If not you need to evict them now before they gain Part 4 rights after six months. Cut your losses now!

spaceHopper

It's not nice for the kid but you aren't going to change them so there is very little you can do. If it was me I'd ask them to go now while you can because in a month it's a whole different story. They are filling the house with rubbish and it will only get worse, do you want to be dealing with rats and mice next winter?

the goon

Just wanted to follow up on this as I often see people ask for advice and never let people know the outcome. As I said originally, all advice and comments both positive and negative were appreciated.

I logged a dispute with the PRTB as tenant refused to accept notice served. Followed all the protocol. We received a date for dispute resolution about a month from receipt of dispute registration. In the meantime, tenant did not pay rent. The week of mediation, tenants did a legger back to France.

The deposit covered last months rent but it cost a fortune to clean the apartment. On the advice of professional cleaners, we had to hire a mini skip, replace the bathroom floor as they had ripped out lino and the floor boards were after rotting (I have no idea what they were doing in there). Domestic rubbish was being stored in one of the bedrooms and cleaners found soiled nappies and some other disgusting stuff under the bed in the room which they slept. Bins were left overflowing and on calling the bin company we were told they were not collected as they hadn't paid bill in three months. These are kind of the selected highlights.

So who we thought were a nice quiet couple with a good reference, turned out to be a nightmare. Whilst PRTB does offer some chance of resolving situations, what do you do when tenant leaves the country?

Graham

the goon wrote: »

what do you do when tenant leaves the country?

Out of all the potential bad outcomes, that was probably the least bad.

Lux23

That is awful, I can't understand people who can't throw their rubbish out. It really isn't even that expensive. We get four bags for €10.50 and they normally last us for a month.

MrWalsh

At least you were alerted to it when you were as opposed to a number of years down the line when neglect would have made it even more expensive to rectify.

Danjamin1

I can't understand this kind of cr@p, what the f**k is wrong with people?!

On the bright side OP at least the tenant is gone, yes it will cost a bit to clean and repair the place but it's less of a headache than having to continue dealing with this kind of tenant!

tuisginideach

hfallada wrote: »

Im sorry but if a tenant is messy during a tenancy, its none of your concern, as long as the place is spotless when they move out. There is nothing of concern in your post eg heavy stains. There is nothing in your post that cant be cleaned without a good cleaning. People are messy, thats their nature. My parents had a house that wasnt cleaned for 4 years, with students in it. They didnt care that the place wasnt cleaned, as its the tenants home. It was professional cleaned when they moved it and the house was perfect again.

I dont get the whole "accidental landlord" if she has been one for the last 20 years. You should should read up on the rules and regulations of being a LL. Personally I think evicting a tenant over being messy in their own home, is a bit extreme and controlling.

Are you still so confident that a messy tenant is none of the LL's concern? He was obviously right to be concerned here.

the goon

Overall the feeling is one of relief. However it has definitely made us more sceptical.

chanelfreak

So let me get this right - you logged a dispute with the PRTB and from that point on, the tenants stopped paying rent and continued to live there? And then scarpered once mediation notices were sent? Leaving you out of pocket for rent and what sounds like quite considerable repairs/cleaning?

I don't live in Ireland, but honest to God, I would not be a LL there for love nor money. Does the LL have no rights at all to his/her property? Why can't someone be evicted once they stop paying rent and you know that they are taking the proverbial? Is there anything like the PRTB for LLs?

the goon

Yes, essentially that is what happened. It is unfair.

the_syco

chanelfreak wrote: »

Is there anything like the PRTB for LLs?

The PTRB is for landlords and tenants alike, but is toothless, so it's bark is often worse than it's bite if the landlords or tenants don't play ball.

tuisginideach

Personally I feel the PRTB is set up to favour tenants - the delay in dealing with situations means that LLs nearly always suffer as the tenants so often do a runner before the PRTB case gets going.

The_Conductor

In this instance- the length of time to organise the PRTB meeting- was almost miraculously good- I hope its a portent of better practices from them in future.

Unfortunately- it was inevitable that you were going to encounter someone like them sooner or later- it was great that you had so many good and decent tenants- before you encountered them.

When things like this happen- it really highlights how inapprorpiate it is to let furnished accommodation with only 1 month's deposit from the tenant. This is largely why 2 or even 3 month's deposit- is becoming more and more common when letting furnished accommodation.

OP- I appreciate the extent of the damage that has been done- unfortunately- all I can really say- is you're so lucky that the PRTB case came up so quickly- a month is almost unheard of- and I sincerely hope its a reflection of additional resources being thrown at the PRTB (I know they have been seeking additional staff for a protracted period of time).

Hollister11

At least you can go and look for good tenants, as the demand for rental property is in high demand in Dublin, the ball is in your court. I know what its like when your parents have nightmare tenants.

the goon

I was very surprised by how quickly we were scheduled for arbitration by the PRTB aswell. I had actually resigned myself to having a much longer wait based on all I had heard. The speed with which we were scheduled definitely reduced our loss.

ted1

hfallada wrote: »

Im sorry but if a tenant is messy during a tenancy, its none of your concern, as long as the place is spotless when they move out.

rubbish. literally rubbish, if its attracts rodents who can do damage in internal wiring, plumbing etc its very much the landlords concen.

MrWalsh

ted1 wrote: »

rubbish. literally rubbish, if its attracts rodents who can do damage in internal wiring, plumbing etc its very much the landlords concen.

Theres also a big difference with being messy and being neglectful to the detriment of the property.

Would I care if someone left their messy breakfast things out and didnt clean them up immediately after eating? No.

Would I care if someone let 3 months worth of mouldy dirty half filled plates, cups, bowls, utensils and food packaging build up? You betcha!