Your feelings towards Irish trad music

Rakish Paddy

I know there is a separate sub-forum for trad music, but I expect most of the people who post there have a specific interest in trad and I'm interested in the thoughts of people who don't necessarily play or regularly listen to it.

Playing trad music is my absolute passion in life but I didn't grow up playing it, and only got into it at all in my early 20s after arriving there via a rather winding route through punk, grunge, classic rock, more mellow rock, acoustic singer-songwriter stuff through folk ballads and then bands like Planxty and the Bothy Band that combined folk ballads and trad tunes, eventually settling on the jigs and reels and hornpipes and such as my favourite.

I have travelled abroad quite a bit and find that outside of Ireland any time I mention Irish trad music or bring people to a trad session they are absolutely fascinated. I have met people from all kinds of countries who often have zero ancestral connection to here but who completely love our trad music and often play it extremely proficiently.

I often think (maybe incorrectly - I'm open to that possibility!) that Irish people are the first to dismiss or voice a dislike of our trad music, and I'm genuinely curious as to why that is. Of course the music does have a following here - you just need to go to an all-Ireland fleadh, Willie Clancy week in Millttown Malbay etc. to see the crowds, but it's very far from mainstream.

So, what are your feelings towards trad music? Do you like it? Dislike it? Can you explain why you feel that way?

For those not familiar with the terminology, I'm really referring to instrumental tunes such as reels, jigs, hornpipes, slip jigs, polkas, slides and so forth, as well as sean nós singing and their related instrumental slow airs. I'm not talking about rebel songs, folk ballads or rock / punk with a bit of trad influence.

Rigsby

I dont dislike Irish trad music. I find it quite nice to listen to...in small doses. Other than that, it simply does not move me in the same way as it does you.

There is nothing new in a country's "traditional music" being a minority interest in it's home country. You only have to look at the U.S.A. with blues and jazz. Like in Ireland, you generally have to go to certain states to find an abundance of jazz and blues. Lots of blues and jazz artists moved to Europe in the 40's as there was no living to be made with this music at home.

Personally, I cant really put a finger on precisely why it lacks total appeal for me. If I was forced for an answer, I think it would be...repetition. For me, a piece of Irish trad music ( be it a horn pipe, jig etc) has "conveyed it's message" to me after say...two repeats. However, it often goes on and on repeating the same small melody, maybe ten or twelve times...by which time I am totally bored. Then another piece of music is played by different musicians. The melody is generally more or less similar to what went before, with the only "difference" being in the line up of instruments used.

Dont get me wrong. I am a great believer in the concept of.."to each their own.." but since you asked...:)

Rakish Paddy

Rigsby wrote: »

For me, a piece of Irish trad music ( be it a horn pipe, jig etc) has "conveyed it's message" to me after say...two repeats. However, it often goes on and on repeating the same small melody, maybe ten or twelve times...by which time I am totally bored.

That's an interesting one... Although there's no hard and fast rule on this, it's actually unusual for one tune to be repeated more than 3 times within a set. This goes for recordings, pub sessions and live gigs. One of the conventions is to play three or so tunes of the same type (3 x reels or 3 x jigs and so forth) consecutively, ideally flowing fairly seamlessly from one to the next. I wonder if ears that aren't exposed to a lot of trad don't necessarily pick up on the transitions between tunes in the same set...

Rigsby

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

That's an interesting one... Although there's no hard and fast rule on this, it's actually unusual for one tune to be repeated more than 3 times within a set. This goes for recordings, pub sessions and live gigs. One of the conventions is to play three or so tunes of the same type (3 x reels or 3 x jigs and so forth) consecutively, ideally flowing fairly seamlessly from one to the next. I wonder if ears that aren't exposed to a lot of trad don't necessarily pick up on the transitions between tunes in the same set...

Yes, I can hear the "transitions" but more often than not they are the same type of music structure ( with perhaps a very slight variation) just played in a different key.

As for repeats...I have invariably counted eight repeats of the same few bars of a piece. Perhaps I'm just "unlucky".

Rakish Paddy

Rigsby wrote: »

Yes, I can hear the "transitions" but more often than not they are the same type of music structure

Yep, that's certainly true. Apart from the more "arranged" stuff like The Chieftains you tend to hear sets made up of only one type of tune - a set of reels or a set of jigs etc.

Rigsby

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

Apart from the more "arranged" stuff like The Chieftains you tend to hear sets made up of only one type of tune - a set of reels or a set of jigs etc.

This is my point. Then after that "set" comes another one with more of the same.

Makood

Just spotted this on the front page of boards. I'm into all sorts of music but I cannot get the trad at all. For me it's all the same over and over. A little is fine but after 10 minutes I've had enough.
I've asked this question before-what am I missing because I am obviously missing something!

Rakish Paddy

Makood wrote: »

I've asked this question before-what am I missing because I am obviously missing something!

You're just listening to the wrong stuff :-) Annoyingly I can't post links since I'm a new user, but there's a huge amount of variety within trad music.

I'd recommend having a look at Martin Hayes (fiddle) with Dennis Cahill (guitar) and see if you like the sound of it. Martin Hayes is a favourite of mine but has a very unique style so might be an acquired taste.

Also take a look at Mick O'Brien (uilleann pipes) and Caoimhin O Raghallaigh (fiddle) for some really really musical playing but that isn't flashy in the slightest.

For something with a bit more of a wild feel, take a look at Paddy Keenan on the uilleann pipes.

To see how the simplest of instruments can be used to make stunning music, have a look for Donncha O Briain the tin whistler (and late brother of the aforementioned Mick O'Brien I believe).

If none of those do it for you let me know and I'll try to find something else! :-D

Rigsby

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

You're just listening to the wrong stuff

I assumed from the title of your thread that you were talking about Irish trad music in general. So how does the "wrong stuff" come into it ?

Granted, in all genres there will be the odd exception to the norm, but I assumed we were talking generally here.

Rakish Paddy

Rigsby wrote: »

I assumed from the title of your thread that you were talking about Irish trad music in general. So how does the "wrong stuff" come into it ?.

The "wrong stuff" comes into it because, like any genre, trad has its fair share of crap too!

Rakish Paddy

And to expand on that a little - if all you have heard is music for dancing, such as céilí bands, and didn't much care for it, you might feel very differently towards a solo or duo act who play music more for listening than dancing. Or maybe you have just heard lots of, for example, accordion players and don't care for the sound, and maybe when you hear a skillful piper playing it might spark something.

Rigsby

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

And to expand on that a little - if all you have heard is music for dancing, such as céilí bands, and didn't much care for it, you might feel very differently towards a solo or duo act who play music more for listening that dancing. Or maybe you have just heard lots of, for example, accordion players and don't care for the sound, and maybe when you hear a skillful piper playing it might spark something.

I think it would be fair to say that I have listened to a variety of trad music, played by a variety of musicians and instruments (some skilled...some not). Granted, the music played by the more skilled musician is much more enjoyable, but we still come back to the limited structure (resulting in the repetitiveness...at least to these ears) of the music in general. This does not change..regardless of who is playing it.

This was the reason why I queried your "wrong stuff" statement.

Rakish Paddy

Rigsby wrote: »

This was the reason why I queried your "wrong stuff" statement.

That was In response to the other poster who was wondering if he was missing something.

Rigsby

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

That was In response to the other poster who was wondering if he was missing something.

Fair enough...but it is still all trad music. So the term "wrong stuff" does not make sense to me.

Perhaps I too, am missing something.

Rakish Paddy

Rigsby wrote: »

Fair enough...but it is still all trad music. So the term "wrong stuff" does not make sense to me.

Perhaps I too, am missing something.

Well let'say I've heard some jazz, and as it happens it has mostly been some of the more out-there stuff, and I decide jazz isn't my thing unless I'm missing something. Then someone plays some Duke Ellington for me, I start to think maybe this jazz malarkey ain't so bad. I had been listening to the "wrong stuff" (for me)

wupucus

i like a lot of trad music, as long as it does not require the use of an accordion or any related instrument- the accordion is a horrendous piece of work- I would rather listen to the bagpipes, and that says something-jasus it's muck

Rigsby

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

Well let'say I've heard some jazz, and as it happens it has mostly been some of the more out-there stuff, and I decide jazz isn't my thing unless I'm missing something. Then someone plays some Duke Ellington for me, I start to think maybe this jazz malarkey ain't so bad. I had been listening to the "wrong stuff" (for me)

Good try , but jazz is not a good comparison because by it's very nature it is an improvised music form, where the same piece of music can have a structure change, each time it is played. Granted, this can sometimes happen in trad music, but generally speaking the music sticks to a certain limited structure. Also, jazz has been constantly (and still is..) evolving since it's birth. The term "jazz" is just an umbrella name for a vast array of different branches of the genre. In the case of jazz, the term "wrong stuff" would definitely make sense, because of it's many facets. Not so with trad, because basically the form remains the same.

I am not saying there is anything wrong or bad about the structure of Irish trad. It is the nature of the music. You were curious as to why some Irish people were not overly enthusiastic about it. I am letting you know my reasons. I suspect that other Irish people feel the same way. That other poster certainly seemed to think along the same lines as myself.

Rigsby

wupucus wrote: »

i like a lot of trad music, as long as it does not require the use of an accordion or any related instrument- the accordion is a horrendous piece of work- I would rather listen to the bagpipes, and that says something-jasus it's muck

I agree. The accordion would not be my favourite instrument either. However, it can sound quite impressive in other music forms like jazz.

NIMAN

It's grand in (very) small doses.

But the tourists seem to love it.

PLL

I love it. (I'm 24, f) I wish more people in their 20's/30's liked it too. I would love to go the more Trad sessions, my best friend loves it too but she is living in England atm. Though we would in general end up going to a pub/club with generic pop on a night out. The odd night we have seen a session on and went in we have had a fantastic time! Jiving with anyone, and everyone of all ages. Great way to let off steam in my personal experience.

Rakish Paddy

wupucus wrote: »

i like a lot of trad music, as long as it does not require the use of an accordion or any related instrument- the accordion is a horrendous piece of work- I would rather listen to the bagpipes, and that says something-jasus it's muck

Haha, you wouldn't be the first to voice such a sentiment! I must admit though I am a fan of accordion when it's played well - Joe Cooley or Tony MacMahon are both a pleasure to listen to. A loud accordion played by someone with a poor sense of rhythm though, that's not fun...

johnROSS

This is a topic that's been on my mind a lot lately, because I'm doing music for my Leaving Cert. For Leaving Cert Music, we study trad in theory- about the history of the harping tradition, regional/ sean nós styles, how Trad has been influenced by other genres and how other genres have been influenced by trad, etc. I find all this side of it fascinating to read about and learn about, and then we do the traditional Irish Music listening side of it.. and everything goes down the toilet. I can't bear the stuff. I wish i could enjoy it, because it's such an important facet of Irish culture, but it just doesn't do it for me. I'm not sure if its due to being over-exposed to it in primary school with tin whistles and set dancing and whatever or what, but I'm allergic to it. I wish I could embrace it, though. Anyone else in a similar boat?

Rigsby

johnROSS wrote: »

This is a topic that's been on my mind a lot lately, because I'm doing music for my Leaving Cert. For Leaving Cert Music, we study trad in theory- about the history of the harping tradition, regional/ sean nós styles, how Trad has been influenced by other genres and how other genres have been influenced by trad, etc. I find all this side of it fascinating to read about and learn about, and then we do the traditional Irish Music listening side of it.. and everything goes down the toilet. I can't bear the stuff. I wish i could enjoy it, because it's such an important facet of Irish culture, but it just doesn't do it for me. I'm not sure if its due to being over-exposed to it in primary school with tin whistles and set dancing and whatever or what, but I'm allergic to it. I wish I could embrace it, though. Anyone else in a similar boat?

I would not say that I was allergic to it. Suffice to say..it's not for me.

beauf

Interesting topic. Trad does nothing for me at all. Always wondered why. There was quite a bit of trad music in the house when I was growing up, a couple of fiddler players and the accordion. Was on the radio quite a bit. The only bit I would be half interested in was Sean Maguire, but I think thats because he plays it differently, with his classical background. But it just does nothing for me. That said Jazz is the same, just don't get it. Otherwise I listen to wide range of music. As a kid I tried to learn a variety of instruments and didn't stick at any. I assume because I didn't pick them. When I left school I bought my own guitar and nothing has held my interest as much as guitar based music especially rock music.

Rigsby

beauf wrote: »

Always wondered why.

I think "johnROSS" made a valid point earlier, when he mentioned how music is taught, especially in primary schools. Quite often it is only trad music that is taught and does not include other forms. The child has no choice but to go along with it, even though it may not appeal to him/her. It then simply becomes just another lesson to be "endured". This experience regarding trad, remains with the person throughout his/her's life. While I agree that a child should be taught about his/her musical heritage, IMO a they might be more inclined to embrace trad music if it formed part of a more general music curriculum.

beauf

I dunno about that. I was never taught music in school. Even if I was there's lots of subjects in school I'll never like.

You can't make people like things.

Rigsby

beauf wrote: »

You can't make people like things.

I agree. However, there is the possibility that the way you are introduced to, and taught a subject, will have a bearing on your over all opinion of it in later life. You only have to look at the pressure that pupils were put under in years gone by with the Irish language, where if you failed this subject you failed the whole exam. This is sowing the seeds for a negatively biased view of the language from these pupils, when they reach adulthood.

Similarly, where Irish trad music is taught in schools, if it is the only show in town, there is a good chance of the same biased view being held.

beauf

I don't think they have the resources to achieve what you suggest.

Trad seems to be a lot more popular in the country IMO I think because its still part of their social life.

Rigsby

beauf wrote: »

Trad seems to be a lot more popular in the country IMO I think because its still part of their social life.

I agree, and it was never (up until around the late 60's early 70's) a part of life in Dublin, at least not to my knowledge. Here, it was regarded as something like..."that music from down the country.." There was always a detach with the music, between urban and rural regions, so perhaps in this respect it is not really "traditional" music (in the strict sense) in the more urban areas.

Rakish Paddy

beauf wrote: »

The only bit I would be half interested in was Sean Maguire, but I think thats because he plays it differently, with his classical background.

That's funny - I have listened to Sean Maguire a bit, but try as I might I just can't seem to get into his way of playing, although I can of course appreciate his skill and mastery of his instrument. Horses for courses, eh?

Rakish Paddy

Rigsby wrote: »

I agree, and it was never (up until around the late 60's early 70's) a part of life in Dublin, at least not to my knowledge. Here, it was regarded as something like..."that music from down the country.." There was always a detach with the music, between urban and rural regions, so perhaps in this respect it is not really "traditional" music (in the strict sense) in the more urban areas.

I hadn't actually given much thought to an urban / rural divide but you might be on to something there. Within the rural side of things there's a regional aspect too - I have been to country areas that don't have any regular trad sessions for miles around, and then parts of counties Clare and Sligo have areas where trad music seems almost mainstream. I'd be interested to understand why the music is so popular in some areas and nearly absent in others.