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Government to pay mortgage arrears *Mod Note in Opening Post*
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<Mod Snip>
I posted a poll n this in After Hours - to see what the broader population thinks...
Would the idea have been originally offer the amount of rent relief they would get for their circumstances if they had been renting.
Like if you rent you can get this amount of money free from the government so we will now give home owners that qualify the same amount?
That option seem fair as the people would be getting that free money anyway while waiting for their free council house.0 -
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Would the idea have been originally offer the amount of rent relief they would get for their circumstances if they had been renting.
Like if you rent you can get this amount of money free from the government so we will now give home owners that qualify the same amount?
That option seem fair as the people would be getting that free money anyway while waiting for their free council house.
Fairness should not be the primary driver for the measures necessary to address the mortgage arrears crisis which threatens Ireland's banks' solvency (and therefore the solvency of the country) but if fairness is to be used as an argument isn't the idea of state-funded mortgages incredibly unfair to those waiting on state housing who did not buy houses that are now in arrears?
Those who bought houses might typically be wealthier or from wealthier backgrounds than those who did not. How can socialist politicians row in behind a policy designed to let the haves skip the have-nots on the housing list? Or that would allow the beneficiaries of state funded mortgages to have an asset to pass on to their children while those who obtained council housing in the current system do not.
If keeping defaulters in houses in arrears and debt forgiveness is the only way to save the banking system then it should be argued for on that basis.0 -
Would the idea have been originally offer the amount of rent relief they would get for their circumstances if they had been renting.
Like if you rent you can get this amount of money free from the government so we will now give home owners that qualify the same amount?
That option seem fair as the people would be getting that free money anyway while waiting for their free council house.
If you're going to do that, you have to take ownership of the asset off the people getting the relief.
Someone on rent relief will never own the property they're in, they will only live there. They will have no home to pass on to their kids, sell and downsize (and benefit from the left over cash) etc.
If you simply give someone with a mortgage €x/month, you're giving them somewhere to live, as well as giving them an asset worth €100,000s.
The fairest system would be repossessions, with the bank having no recourse to any remaining debt (however, it should be possible for the banks to pursue the mortgage holder for any fall in value related to any actions carried out by the mortgage holder, such as smashing windows etc).0 -
If you're going to do that, you have to take ownership of the asset off the people getting the relief.
Someone on rent relief will never own the property they're in, they will only live there. They will have no home to pass on to their kids, sell and downsize (and benefit from the left over cash) etc.
If you simply give someone with a mortgage €x/month, you're giving them somewhere to live, as well as giving them an asset worth €100,000s.
The fairest system would be repossessions, with the bank having no recourse to any remaining debt (however, it should be possible for the banks to pursue the mortgage holder for any fall in value related to any actions carried out by the mortgage holder, such as smashing windows etc).
Mortgage to rent was the best option, most would happily give there home over to be a council and live there as a coucil tenant. Can you still pass council house down to your kids?0 -
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If someone with mortgage has a loan of €150,000 on a house worth €150,000 paying an interest only mortgage they do not have an asset of 150,000. They only have an asset of 150,000 after they find 150,000 on top of their interest payments to pay off the capital. If they continue to stay interest only they also will have no home to pass on to their kids, sell and downsize (and benefit from the left over cash) etc.If you're going to do that, you have to take ownership of the asset off the people getting the relief.
Someone on rent relief will never own the property they're in, they will only live there. They will have no home to pass on to their kids, sell and downsize (and benefit from the left over cash) etc.
If you simply give someone with a mortgage €x/month, you're giving them somewhere to live, as well as giving them an asset worth €100,000s.
The fairest system would be repossessions, with the bank having no recourse to any remaining debt (however, it should be possible for the banks to pursue the mortgage holder for any fall in value related to any actions carried out by the mortgage holder, such as smashing windows etc).0 -
This post has been deleted.0
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NewDirection wrote: »If someone with mortgage has a loan of €150,000 on a house worth €150,000 paying an interest only mortgage they do not have an asset of 150,000. They only have an asset of 150,000 after they find 150,000 on top of their interest payments to pay off the capital. If they continue to stay interest only they also will have no home to pass on to their kids, sell and downsize (and benefit from the left over cash) etc.
How many properties remain interest only forever?
Part of the cost of buying a property, if you don't have the purchase price in cash, is the interest on a mortgage. Can you imagine how unfair it would be if the government were to start paying the interest for everyone in arrears, which would enable them to then get ownership of their own homes only paying the capital portion of the monthly repayment, if people who don't own a home right now would have to pay the full cost for their own property when they buy it (as well as their taxes going towards paying the interest on other people's mortgages)?
Any scheme the government introduces to aid people who are in arrears, will hit paying mortgages holders, while also hitting renters twice. The first hit, which will affect mortgage holders who are making their payments as well as renters, will be an increase in tax (or, alternatively, slower reductions in tax) to benefit people who aren't making their payments. The second hit, which will only affect renters/non-homeowners, is that it will become harder to get their own property, as people who can't afford their property are supported to keep it.
At the end of the day, if you can't afford something, you shouldn't get to have/keep it. If you can't afford Sky Digital, you get Saorview. If you can't afford a holiday abroad, you go on a holiday locally (or not on one at all). But for some reason, if you can't afford your mortgage in Ireland, everyone else is expected to pay it for you.0 -
GalwayMagpie - do not post in this thread again.
There has already been posts removed from IMHO - this is not the place for them to rally the troups0 -
If this comes to pass there will be war. I hope they know that a much higher proportion of those against this are voters in comparison to those who protested against Irish Water. This is a real issue for all young people in Ireland and young professionals especially. Most of whom quietly go about their business and pay their taxes. I expect protests if this ridiculous idea gathers any legs0
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The on running theme of this thread seems to be, that you forfeit all opportunities for state help the minute you took out a mortgage to try to buy a house.How many properties remain interest only forever?
Part of the cost of buying a property, if you don't have the purchase price in cash, is the interest on a mortgage. Can you imagine how unfair it would be if the government were to start paying the interest for everyone in arrears, which would enable them to then get ownership of their own homes only paying the capital portion of the monthly repayment, if people who don't own a home right now would have to pay the full cost for their own property when they buy it (as well as their taxes going towards paying the interest on other people's mortgages)?
Any scheme the government introduces to aid people who are in arrears, will hit paying mortgages holders, while also hitting renters twice. The first hit, which will affect mortgage holders who are making their payments as well as renters, will be an increase in tax (or, alternatively, slower reductions in tax) to benefit people who aren't making their payments. The second hit, which will only affect renters/non-homeowners, is that it will become harder to get their own property, as people who can't afford their property are supported to keep it.
At the end of the day, if you can't afford something, you shouldn't get to have/keep it. If you can't afford Sky Digital, you get Saorview. If you can't afford a holiday abroad, you go on a holiday locally (or not on one at all). But for some reason, if you can't afford your mortgage in Ireland, everyone else is expected to pay it for you.
The state helps people who cant afford rent, with rent supplement. Whats the difference?
You can build in clauses so people don't take advantage of whatever scheme is proposed.
And it has been mentioned that the underlying asset could go up in value, as a reason why this is different. The value of your family home doesn't matter until you sell it. So add in a clawback clause in the case that the home is sold in excess of the loan amount.0 -
NewDirection wrote: »The on running theme of this thread seems to be, that you forfeit all opportunities for state help the minute you took out a mortgage to try to buy a house.
The state helps people who cant afford rent, with rent supplement. Whats the difference?
The difference is that you don't get to keep/own any share of the asset when you're getting rent allowance. You will never gain any share of the property.
What is the basis for introducing support for mortgages, but not car loans? Owning property is not a requirement. You don't need to own where you live.
If you want state aid, you should forfeit ownership of the property, you shouldn't maintain ownership of an asset that you are not paying for (when you signed a contract saying you would). If you want to continue living there, you should then be required to pay a fair rent to live there.
Why do we insist on avoiding repossessions, when every other developed country in the world has them, and doesn't have ridiculous levels of mortgage arrears as a result?
And to the people suggesting giving up their job, selling their house etc and being housed by the state for the rest of their lives:
1) If loads of people start doing that, it just means that rent allowance etc will all collapse, meaning far poorer accommodation for all on the scheme.
2) So to avoid paying your mortgage, you'd prefer to live the rest of your life in basic housing, with few luxuries?0 -
I'm deeply unclear at this stage what point you are trying to make and how your situation applies to the wider property market.
Most people should leave the homes with neg equity if they have lost job and go bankrupt and get social house, they will end up getting more money then if they keep the home and all debts will be clear0 -
hopgog, Alina Mushy Buttermilk - could you get back on topic please0
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The basis for introducing support for mortgages is that a sizable portion of the states citizens are struggling with arrears and it could be a better alternative to default. The states goal is essentially to make things better for the citizens, it doesn't have to help every single citizen equally with every measure it brings in, or else we'd just scrap all social welfare etc. and let everyone fend for themselves. Not a road I'd like to go down.The difference is that you don't get to keep/own any share of the asset when you're getting rent allowance. You will never gain any share of the property.
What is the basis for introducing support for mortgages, but not car loans? Owning property is not a requirement. You don't need to own where you live.
If you want state aid, you should forfeit ownership of the property, you shouldn't maintain ownership of an asset that you are not paying for (when you signed a contract saying you would). If you want to continue living there, you should then be required to pay a fair rent to live there.
Why do we insist on avoiding repossessions, when every other developed country in the world has them, and doesn't have ridiculous levels of mortgage arrears as a result?
And to the people suggesting giving up their job, selling their house etc and being housed by the state for the rest of their lives:
1) If loads of people start doing that, it just means that rent allowance etc will all collapse, meaning far poorer accommodation for all on the scheme.
2) So to avoid paying your mortgage, you'd prefer to live the rest of your life in basic housing, with few luxuries?
Rather than flatly reject the proposed scheme blankly, why not try to come up with a scheme that is fair, won't cost the state much when you take in the overall picture, and that can help those in trouble.
I'd refer back to the most sensible post on this whole thread as a starting point for a potential scheme. In my opinion gnf_ireland has described a rough workable way this scheme could be run.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95078967&postcount=355
As for your point about getting a share of the asset. If you're ppr goes up in value, someone doesn't call to the door with a bag of cash that you can then spend. You only realize any gains if you sell the property. Add in a clawback clauses on any mortgage supplement houses so the owner only gets the excess after the mortgage and state have been paid back. In that case, its cost the state nothing to help out one of its struggling citizens. Surely that's a win.0 -
NewDirection wrote: »The basis for introducing support for mortgages is that a sizable portion of the states citizens are struggling with arrears and it could be a better alternative to default. The states goal is essentially to make things better for the citizens, it doesn't have to help every single citizen equally with every measure it brings in, or else we'd just scrap all social welfare etc. and let everyone fend for themselves. Not a road I'd like to go down.
In this case, you'd be taking money from those who don't have property, to aid those who do. You'd be taking from the have-nots to benefit those who already have. That is the exact opposite of the social welfare system (where we take from the more fortunate to assist the less fortunate).NewDirection wrote: »Rather than flatly reject the proposed scheme blankly, why not try to come up with a scheme that is fair, won't cost the state much when you take in the overall picture, and that can help those in trouble.
The fairest "scheme" is repossession. Why do we always need to come up with various schemes and bailouts? It shouldn't come as any surprise to anyone that if you don't pay your mortgage, you don't keep your house.NewDirection wrote: »I'd refer back to the most sensible post on this whole thread as a starting point for a potential scheme. In my opinion gnf_ireland has described a rough workable way this scheme could be run.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95078967&postcount=355
While that's better than the suggestions and rumours of the scheme coming out in the media, let's look at some of the issues with those suggestions:gnf_ireland wrote: »Limit the duration mortgage supplement is available, say 5 years. After 5 years, if the person still cannot afford the property, another solution needs to be found
That's basically just a can-kicking exercise, which we've had enough of at this point. We can't just keep pushing all the issues down the line, because eventually we'll have to address all of them at the same time.gnf_ireland wrote: »The payment of mortgage supplement can only extend to the 'interest' element of the repayment, and the customer has to pay a level of interest themselves - Lets say a nice tracker rate of 1% above ECB.
So people on trackers who are in arrears will see no benefit, because they already have lower interest rates.NewDirection wrote: »As for your point about getting a share of the asset. If you're ppr goes up in value, someone doesn't call to the door with a bag of cash that you can then spend. You only realize any gains if you sell the property. Add in a clawback clauses on any mortgage supplement houses so the owner only gets the excess after the mortgage and state have been paid back. In that case, its cost the state nothing to help out one of its struggling citizens. Surely that's a win.
That's still weighted heavily in the non-payee's favour. If the property price never rises, the government absorbs the loss. If it rises, all the government gets back is what it put in (i.e. it breaks even). And that's not even allowing for the fact that anything put into this fund will have to be provided for by:
1) Cutting services,
2) Raising taxes or
3) Increasing borrowing
All of those things have opportunity costs (or interest costs) associated with them, so even if the price of the property rises and the state gets its money back, it still actually makes a loss. So, for the state (and, by extension, the taxpayers who have to pay for this scheme), the options are loss of all money put into it, or loss of some money put into it.
And all that doesn't even address the fact that a scheme like this rewards people who have gone into arrears (by subsiding them), at the cost of the responsible people who didn't. This acts to encourage people to stretch themselves in the future. Why buy a 3 bed and make all your repayments, when you can buy a 4 bed and then just stop paying until the state subsidises you?0 -
People in arrears and in negative equity are the have-nots you talked about. They are the less fortunate.In this case, you'd be taking money from those who don't have property, to aid those who do. You'd be taking from the have-nots to benefit those who already have. That is the exact opposite of the social welfare system (where we take from the more fortunate to assist the less fortunate).
While repossession makes sense in some cases, surely its worth investigating if there is an alternative than throwing families out on the street. Where do you think the families will go after repossession? Renting, with rent supplement from the state.The fairest "scheme" is repossession. Why do we always need to come up with various schemes and bailouts? It shouldn't come as any surprise to anyone that if you don't pay your mortgage, you don't keep your house.
Can kicking could help in this instance. Inflation would close the negative equity gap, plus the mortgage payments would stay the same, even as rents went higher, helping the struggling family even more.
While that's better than the suggestions and rumours of the scheme coming out in the media, let's look at some of the issues with those suggestions:
That's basically just a can-kicking exercise, which we've had enough of at this point. We can't just keep pushing all the issues down the line, because eventually we'll have to address all of them at the same time.
They would benefit as their loan would be restructured to interest only, and the government would be paying part of it.
So people on trackers who are in arrears will see no benefit, because they already have lower interest rates.
I'd argue it should cost in the same region as the rent supplement scheme, so at worst the government break even (as the now evicted owner would be eligible for the rent supplement if he starts renting), at best they recoup some money back if the house is eventually sold.
That's still weighted heavily in the non-payee's favour. If the property price never rises, the government absorbs the loss. If it rises, all the government gets back is what it put in (i.e. it breaks even). And that's not even allowing for the fact that anything put into this fund will have to be provided for by:
1) Cutting services,
2) Raising taxes or
3) Increasing borrowing
All of those things have opportunity costs (or interest costs) associated with them, so even if the price of the property rises and the state gets its money back, it still actually makes a loss. So, for the state (and, by extension, the taxpayers who have to pay for this scheme), the options are loss of all money put into it, or loss of some money put into it.
So all people in arrears are irresponsible, and people not in arrears are the responsible ones - the world is not so black and white. Also if you had read the link in my post, point one refers to a cap on the size of houses. So if you buy a house bigger than your needs, you are not eligible for the scheme.
And all that doesn't even address the fact that a scheme like this rewards people who have gone into arrears (by subsiding them), at the cost of the responsible people who didn't. This acts to encourage people to stretch themselves in the future. Why buy a 3 bed and make all your repayments, when you can buy a 4 bed and then just stop paying until the state subsidises you?0 -
NewDirection wrote: »People in arrears and in negative equity are the have-nots you talked about. They are the less fortunate.
Someone who has a house and is in arrears is less fortunate than someone who can't afford to buy a house and has to rent?
Nope ...0 -
NewDirection wrote: »While repossession makes sense in some cases, surely its worth investigating if there is an alternative than throwing families out on the street. Where do you think the families will go after repossession? Renting, with rent supplement from the state.
The house won't disappear - someone currently renting - probably a less nice house can buy, move in and the family which cannot afford to be houseowners can be come renters.
and what about the family of renters who wanted to buy? are they not "struggling"?Can kicking could help in this instance. Inflation would close the negative equity gap, plus the mortgage payments would stay the same, even as rents went higher, helping the struggling family even more.0 -
NewDirection wrote: »The basis for introducing support for mortgages is that a sizable portion of the states citizens are struggling with arrears and it could be a better alternative to default. The states goal is essentially to make things better for the citizens, it doesn't have to help every single citizen equally with every measure it brings in, or else we'd just scrap all social welfare etc. and let everyone fend for themselves. Not a road I'd like to go down.
Rather than flatly reject the proposed scheme blankly, why not try to come up with a scheme that is fair, won't cost the state much when you take in the overall picture, and that can help those in trouble.
I'd refer back to the most sensible post on this whole thread as a starting point for a potential scheme. In my opinion gnf_ireland has described a rough workable way this scheme could be run.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95078967&postcount=355
As for your point about getting a share of the asset. If you're ppr goes up in value, someone doesn't call to the door with a bag of cash that you can then spend. You only realize any gains if you sell the property. Add in a clawback clauses on any mortgage supplement houses so the owner only gets the excess after the mortgage and state have been paid back. In that case, its cost the state nothing to help out one of its struggling citizens. Surely that's a win.
Cant you see the complete lack of logic in asking for those not in arrears to subsidise those in arrears so said parties in arrears can keep their property at a value they paid for it, justification for the high rents they will charge if they are landlords thereby completely shafting those who are trying to get on the property ladder in a manner that is prudent and realistic? Do you not see that by helping with these loans the government will be attempting to influence what should be a market process ie people pay for things they cant afford - those things are taken off them. Why should i pay for someone who made a bad financial decision? And especially so, why should i pay for someone who made a bad financial decision when paying for that bad financial decision makes me less likely to get the things in life i have worked bloody hard for?
When politicians see the numbers in the red all they see is voters. Voters who wouldnt have expected debt forgiveness in their mansion of a family home on the hill. But who now have been given hope and the idea gains political capital. You really couldnt write it.0 -
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I don't think we should pay rent allowance. Why should I when I'm struggling to pay a mortgage have my taxes used to enrich landlords. If people want to rent 1 bedroom apartments for €1000 per month down the IFSC let them pay it themselves. No one has a right to rent and just because the banks have tightened up so what. Let them live with their parents or rent in Leitrim. If they can't afford it they should seek a payrise. It's not the job of Government to help people.0
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I heard an interesting debate on Matt Cooper this evening whilst travelling home. At present in Dublin there are 318 homeless families living in hotel rooms at a cost to the taxpayer of €5000 per month per family.
Next month another 50 or 60 families are expected to join this list. These people are not being evicted from their own private homes. They are being made homeless because of the cap on rent supplement by the Dept of SW to their landlords.
When the house repossessions begin in earnest with the ISI stating almost 38000 at risk and a further 20000 over 2 years in arrears it is going to be very costly for the government to resolve this issue one way or another.
This "repossessed households will swamp the housing list" argument is one of the biggest red herrings out there. Check out the article linked below. 75% of borrowers in arrears are employed so they will be able to afford to rent. It might not be an equivalent house to the one they are not paying the mortgage on but they will be able to rent something within their means.
http://i.imgur.com/x5m1gvL.jpg0 -
This "repossessed households will swamp the housing list" argument is one of the biggest red herrings out there. Check out the article linked below. 75% of borrowers in arrears are employed so they will be able to afford to rent. It might not be an equivalent house to the one they are not paying the mortgage on but they will be able to rent something within their means.
http://i.imgur.com/x5m1gvL.jpg
Zero hour contracts with Dunnes are probably on that list. Still employed however.0 -
NewDirection wrote: »The on running theme of this thread seems to be, that you forfeit all opportunities for state help the minute you took out a mortgage to try to buy a house.
The state helps people who cant afford rent, with rent supplement. Whats the difference?
You can build in clauses so people don't take advantage of whatever scheme is proposed.
And it has been mentioned that the underlying asset could go up in value, as a reason why this is different. The value of your family home doesn't matter until you sell it. So add in a clawback clause in the case that the home is sold in excess of the loan amount.
Why should a family not in receipt of social welfare be housed in a house they couldn't afford to rent?0 -
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I don't think we should pay rent allowance. [...] If people want to rent 1 bedroom apartments for €1000 per month down the IFSC let them pay it themselves.
Those people would be paying for the apartment themselves.
In order to get rental allowance of €1000, you have to live in Dublin (not in Fingal CC though) or Wicklow-Bray area (that includes Bray, Greystones and Delgany), as Dublin (excluding Fingal CC) and Wicklow-Bray area is the only area with €1000 rental allowance. You also have to be part of a couple or a single person, with 3 (three) cohabiting children.
I doubt there are a whole load of 3-child families living in 1 bed apartments in the IFSC, but I'll admit that I don't have a source for that, it's just a suspicion.0 -
NewDirection wrote: »The basis for introducing support for mortgages is that a sizable portion of the states citizens are struggling with arrears and it could be a better alternative to default. The states goal is essentially to make things better for the citizens, it doesn't have to help every single citizen equally with every measure it brings in, or else we'd just scrap all social welfare etc. and let everyone fend for themselves. Not a road I'd like to go down.
Rather than flatly reject the proposed scheme blankly, why not try to come up with a scheme that is fair, won't cost the state much when you take in the overall picture, and that can help those in trouble.
I'd refer back to the most sensible post on this whole thread as a starting point for a potential scheme. In my opinion gnf_ireland has described a rough workable way this scheme could be run.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95078967&postcount=355
Take the sample cases from the Cork Court sitting, how would they fit into such a scheme. Repossessions before the courts appear to be hopeless cases, with many instances of nothing being paid for some time.
There are 2 solutions already in the system that cover the people that would fall into gnf_ireland plan
Interest only
Fixed repayments < interest only
If you are over 2 years in arrears and cant meet one of the above solutions. Surely it is time to draw a line under it.
At what point do we say stop kicking the can. The game is up, long term arrears are gowning.0 -
If this comes to pass there will be war. I hope they know that a much higher proportion of those against this are voters in comparison to those who protested against Irish Water. This is a real issue for all young people in Ireland and young professionals especially. Most of whom quietly go about their business and pay their taxes. I expect protests if this ridiculous idea gathers any legs
This is only speculation on my part but I expect that a number of those in deep deep arrears form a brigade of those who consider themselves "important in Irish life" and that forms part of the reason this has moved so slowly.
Remember Jim Stafford's statement that "professionals should have a bigger house that accords with his professional status in society so that his neighbours and clients can see that".
For every hardship case, we hear more of Julia Godsills concerned that her children will lose their ponies or Brendan & Asta Kelly's protesting the loss of their trophy house when they in fact own nearly 20 properties. And there's the O'Donnell's in the "bog standard house". Or even convicted fraudsters like Gerry O'Boyle welshing out of every financial commitment they have ever made and looking to keep the loot while dumping the debt on the taxpayer. It suits those people to hide behind a mask of famine & land league soundbites and it also short changes those who genuinely need help.
We need transparency to ensure that there's not a wholesale fleecing of taxpayers and the carry on to date doesn't inspire confidence in that regard.0 -
Why should a family not in receipt of social welfare be housed in a house they couldn't afford to rent?
How about if a family A bought house with a mortage of 250k with a monthly repayments of €1200, house is now worth 150k and the mortage repayment would be €720 for a new family. Family A can afford to pay €720 euro a month so why not allow the negative equity to be spilt and the amount to paid back over 30 year at a zero interest rate as this was already bailed out by the government and would also be a lean on the home.0 -
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How about if a family A bought house with a mortage of 250k with a monthly repayments of €1200, house is now worth 150k and the mortage repayment would be €720 for a new family. Family A can afford to pay €720 euro a month so why not allow the negative equity to be spilt and the amount to paid back over 30 year at a zero interest rate as this was already bailed out by the government and would also be a lean on the home.
My car has halved in value since I bought it. Should somebody who bought a similar model for the current value pay more in order that my repayments on the loan are the same as theirs?0
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