Government to pay mortgage arrears *Mod Note in Opening Post*

hmmm

I'm trying to avoid straying into politics here, but I think this is a classic "silent majority" issue. The running on mortgage arrears & repossessions has been made by a very vocal group advocating solutions that would see them financially benefit - the vast majority of people are happy to keep their mouths shut (or at best, express vague sympathy and wish that something could be done). However, if a "solution" like this was ever presented, you'd see an immediate public backlash. I can't see it being a runner.

Zamboni

I see that other post has been deleted.
I'm going to blast it all over social media.

The_Morrigan

Zamboni wrote: »

I see that other post has been deleted.
I'm going to blast it all over social media.

It's been deleted because soapboxing is not allowed here and I don't want the forum turned into a place were political parties, special interest groups or any other groups can try use it as a platform. If they wish to rally the troups they can do so on their own website.

Also, don't discuss moderation on thread, it's naughty and you know it.

DARK-KNIGHT

naughtb4 wrote: »

People gambled on their mortgage and lost, why shouldnt they take the consequences?

Are you talking about young families gambling on mortgages or investment properties? I certainly didn't gamble I bought the furthest town I could realistically live within means whilst being accessible to Dublin for work. Gamble my arse. Also very few I have heard of ever got that benefit where govt pay interest on mortgages I certainly didn't get it

jay0109

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

Are you talking about young families gambling on mortgages or investment properties? I certainly didn't gamble I bought the furthest town I could realistically live within means whilst being accessible to Dublin for work. Gamble my arse. Also very few I have heard of ever got that benefit where govt pay interest on mortgages I certainly didn't get it

Fair play to you. But thousands more told a few white lies on their mortgage application, counting bonuses as regular salary etc (with the support of the Bank in most cases!) so as to get into a desirable area closer to work etc and not have to commute.
Do you want them to stay on where they are but no longer can afford?

groovyg

Uncle Ben wrote: »

Someone will have to assist these people. It's just a matter of getting the best value.

These are the kind of chancers you are assisting. This guy was interviewed by the Irish Times last weekend. He set up Land League West to basically slow down the process of repossession and make the process difficult for the banks.
Its pretty galling to read of his lifestyle during the boom, paying interest only on his mortgage but bought a helicopter and a BMW!!! He is an example of the type of person that wants a handout and the taxpayer to foot the bill for his reckless lifestyle choices.


<Mod Snip>

Full article http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/the-west-s-awake-mayo-s-anti-repo-men-1.2164174

DARK-KNIGHT

jay0109 wrote: »

Fair play to you. But thousands more told a few white lies on their mortgage application, counting bonuses as regular salary etc (with the support of the Bank in most cases!) so as to get into a desirable area closer to work etc and not have to commute.
Do you want them to stay on where they are but no longer can afford?

I agree if someone is living in a posh area big house etc they should have to downsize. I am just making the point not everyone struggling are dossers taking the piss

Villa05

Big difference between assistance and paying someone's mortgage without comeback on title to property




Fairly thorough study done on the property pin showing 300,000 empties at least in 2007. Data pulled from multiple source including electricity connections

ThunbergsAreGo

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

I agree if someone is living in a posh area big house etc they should have to downsize. I am just making the point not everyone struggling are dossers taking the piss

I didnt mean it like that, or was it directed towards people like you (who have been prudent). Its those in the big house or beyond what they could afford (even then).

_Kaiser_

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

I agree if someone is living in a posh area big house etc they should have to downsize. I am just making the point not everyone struggling are dossers taking the piss

naughtb4 wrote: »

I didnt mean it like that, or was it directed towards people like you (who have been prudent). Its those in the big house or beyond what they could afford (even then).

Actually it should make no difference where the house is or how big it is.

If you can't/won't meet the repayments and have gone through restructuring but still can't manage it then you need to move to somewhere you can.

We need to take the emotion out of what is a business transaction. Renting isn't the end of the world. It may not be ideal, and can be hassle if you get the wrong landlord/tenant, but tens of thousands of people are doing it.

Contrary to Irish wisdom, no-one NEEDS to own property. If you can sustainably afford it then work away, but if not it's time to look at alternative arrangements.

Sala

Where is this money supposed to come from? Taxes in general, or increased interest rates on mortgages?

jay0109

Sala wrote: »

Where is this money supposed to come from? Taxes in general, or increased interest rates on mortgages?

Now you well know the answer to that, what with a campaign in full swing to bring down 'high' SVR's.
I think the consensus amongst David Hall etc is that the taxpayer needs to bend over again

jon1981

Grand, I'll just stop paying my mortgage now, will be grand. What goes around comes around, so gimme gimme gimme

On a more serious note, should we look at this as protection for all? For those complaining about this kind of "bail out" ... some day you might need it, is that not another way to look at it?

Kermit.de.frog

They are going to take the money of cautious, hard working people who meet their obligations which often real difficulty and give it to people in mortgage arrears who lived beyond their means and borrowed recklessly.


Lack of jobs is not the only reason people are leaving the country. Why should I pay my mortgage while my neighbor gets this? Every mortgage holder will be saying the same thing up and down the country.

It's time for middle voters to stand up and be counted and stop allowing a loud minority push us in to stupid and wrong policy decisions. The majority needs to start standing up.

jon1981

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

give it to people in mortgage arrears who lived beyond their means and borrowed recklessly

Bit of a broad sweeping assumption there... I know people who borrowed quite modestly , however due to the industry they were employed in and other reasons couldn't fulfil the mortgage obligations. They were not reckless.

Sala

jay0109 wrote: »

Now you well know the answer to that, what with a campaign in full swing to bring down 'high' SVR's.
I think the consensus amongst David Hall etc is that the taxpayer needs to bend over again

I don't actually know the answer! I see from the media it is proposed the government pay ie the taxpayer.

But if banks are forced to writedown some mortgages, no one will lend to irish banks - if the security can't be called in and the loan can be written down, any lending to irish banks will be at a premium interest rate, thereby pushing up the interest rates for all mortgage holders? Therefore they won't be directly paying for it, but getting screwed on interest rates nonetheless? So it would make more sense to raise the rates anyway and channel the money from there?

Edit: not that I agree with it at all, but if interest rates go up as a result, mortgage holders will be paying twice over, through interest rates and taxes

Kermit.de.frog

jon1981 wrote: »

Bit of a broad sweeping assumption there... I know people who borrowed quite modestly , however due to the industry they were employed in and other reasons couldn't fulfil the mortgage obligations. They were not reckless.

And that is everyone else's problem because?

Why should I pay for that? Why should anyone else pay for that? Why should I bother my ass holding on to my job, fulfilling my obligations when Sean and Mary with 2 cars in the drive way down the road get my money for their mortgage on a house that was always beyond their means?


I tell you now if anything like this is brought in it will leave water charges in the hapenny place compared to the sheer anger and sense of theft and injustice it will raise in people.

I'm not paying some else's mortgage while i'm breaking my bollix paying my own.

The_Morrigan

Sala wrote: »

I don't actually know the answer! I see from the media it is proposed the government pay ie the taxpayer.

But if banks are forced to writedown some mortgages, no one will lend to irish banks - if the security can't be called in and the loan can be written down, any lending to irish banks will be at a premium interest rate, thereby pushing up the interest rates for all mortgage holders? Therefore they won't be directly paying for it, but getting screwed on interest rates nonetheless? So it would make more sense to raise the rates anyway and channel the money from there?

...and increase the figures of those needing to be bailed out. I think there are a lot more people who are on the tightrope of paying all their bills and debts, than there are people who are in serious arrears. If the mortgage rates are increased on top of all the other taxes that are crippling people then this could spiral out of control - people will just give up.

Sala

The_Morrigan wrote: »

...and increase the figures of those needing to be bailed out. I think there are a lot more people who are on the tightrope of paying all their bills and debts, than there are people who are in serious arrears. If the mortgage rates are increased on top of all the other taxes that are crippling people then this could spiral out of control - people will just give up.

I agree I think any increase in taxes and/or rates will push a lot more over the edge

The_Morrigan

Sala wrote: »

I agree I think any increase in taxes and/or rates will push a lot more over the edge

It may also create a ' I don't care' attitude. People will be handing their house keys into their local TD's with a note, here you pay I'm off.

jon1981

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

And that is everyone else's problem because?


I tell you now if anything like this is brought in it will leave water charges in the hapenny place compared to the sheer anger and sense of theft and injustice it will raise in people.

I'm not paying some else's mortgage while i'm breaking my bollox paying my own.

I'm not over the moon with it either. However, if they do something like this then in 10 yrs time (or any time in the future) if i'm in trouble, i'll expect equal treatment.

I don't think the Irish people will protest as much at the water charges fiasco because frankly Irish people either don't give a ****, don't understand or generally fail to see the long term implications or bigger picture.

The only reason Irish people caused such a furore over the water charges was because it was a very simple conclusion " you're directly dipping into my pocket here", it needs to be that obvious for the average joe to give a f**k . Look back over history, the various bailouts to the banks, the guarantees to deposit holders... the furore was a mere blip compared the protests over water.

mickman

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

And that is everyone else's problem because?

Why should I pay for that? Why should anyone else pay for that? Why should I bother my ass holding on to my job, fulfilling my obligations when Sean and Mary with 2 cars in the drive way down the road get my money for their mortgage on a house that was always beyond their means?


I tell you now if anything like this is brought in it will leave water charges in the hapenny place compared to the sheer anger and sense of theft and injustice it will raise in people.

I'm not paying some else's mortgage while i'm breaking my bollix paying my own.

You arent paying for that. You are paying your taxes to the govt, its their choice what they do with it, they are elected officials. Vote them out if you want change

_Kaiser_

mickman wrote: »

You arent paying for that. You are paying your taxes to the govt, its their choice what they do with it, they are elected officials. Vote them out if you want change

Not so..

The role of the government in this context is to collect taxes for the running of the country. It's their responsibility to ensure we as citizens get value for that.

It's certainly not their choice to do what they like with it (although I grant you that more often than not that's exactly what happens in Ireland - but that's another thread!)

As for voting them out.. when the ruling Government can ignore the wishes of the electorate without fear of any real reprisals (even if we don't vote for them next time they'll still get their cushy pensions regardless), and the "alternative" is just more of the same or cast-offs disguised as "Independents" or Renua/former PDs etc then change is very hard to come by!

We have a real issue with our so-called "Democracy" and issues like this are mere symptoms of a much larger, more systemic problem.

mickman

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Not so..

The role of the government in this context is to collect taxes for the running of the country. It's their responsibility to ensure we as citizens get value for that.

It's certainly not their choice to do what they like with it (although I grant you that more often than not that's exactly what happens in Ireland - but that's another thread!)

As for voting them out.. when the ruling Government can ignore the wishes of the electorate without fear of any real reprisals (even if we don't vote for them next time they'll still get their cushy pensions regardless), and the "alternative" is just more of the same or cast-offs disguised as "Independents" or Renua/former PDs etc then change is very hard to come by!

We have a real issue with our so-called "Democracy" and issues like this are mere symptoms of a much larger, more systemic problem.

setup a new party and make sweeping changes. If there are so many issues then you will have no problem getting elected

Drumpot

Me me me. What about what I want? Ah, the pious selfish f**k rant. Very popular particularly among the self absorbed working class who get very stressed about those financially struggling if it's gonna somehow cost the state!

I have a mortgage and I pay capital and interest. I also work for myself and employ somebody. But I don't begrudge the state helping people who are struggling to keep their homes.

Most people don't want to be in this position , nor are they looking to exploit it. To focus purely on the people who will look to take the piss is just as wrong.

If people championing families being thrown out of their homes can give us an insight on how it effected them and their own, I will gladly listen to how they feel it benefits society. Otherwise you are no differant to the out of touch politicians who talk from ivory towers about the pain of cutbacks.

What effect does it have on the owners? How does it impact families?

I'd imagine you could find a study that suggests throwing families out on the street is somehow beneficial but I'm not convinced. There is also the question of what sort of country do we want to live in.

Personally I want a country that puts its people's welfare first. Every Irish person should have a home, food, clothing and access to healthcare. After that I don't mind if people's income can add luxury.

Coles

"Their homes"? Could they not downsize? Maybe live somewhere more affordable? Plenty of families rent their homes too. With a mortgage you don't own the property until you finish paying for it and if someone is bankrupt they should go through that process if they have no other option. I'm not sure why anyone would have a difficulty with that.

jon1981

Coles wrote: »

"Their homes"? Could they not downsize? Maybe live somewhere more affordable? Plenty of families rent their homes too. With a mortgage you don't own the property until you finish paying for it and if someone is bankrupt they should go through that process if they have no other option. I'm not sure why anyone would have a difficulty with that.

Where would the 30+ thousand families downsize to? There's f**k all to rent at the moment.

Drumpot

Coles wrote: »

"Their homes"? Could they not downsize? Maybe live somewhere more affordable? Plenty of families rent their homes too. With a mortgage you don't own the property until you finish paying for it and if someone is bankrupt they should go through that process if they have no other option. I'm not sure why anyone would have a difficulty with that..

Exactly. . You aren't sure . . You don't know what its like to have to move under duress, even if its a prudent act. . Moving house in normal circumstances on its own is an extremely stressful event, how do you think it is when a family/people are being forced?

How does it effect children ? Schools, friends, education general stability?

I am not exactly rubber stamping this government initiative, but its so discouraging to read people write and talk about things they have zero personal experience or knowledge on. Not even factoring in the future ramifications.

How many people committed suicide over financial hardship over the last few years? How many people had nervous breakdowns or burnouts causing even more financial hardship? I would imagine that a stable environment for a family (or couple), would be one that would allow them to be most productive for themselves and society.

People need to start understanding that discussing simple economic strategies (particularly in relation to welfare) are not just about figures. They are peoples lives, families lives . . Its easy to throw insults at people struggling financially/physically when you aren't experiencing it through their eyes. . Just try to be more mindful of that before spitting fire at welfare initiatives. Most people on welfare don't want it, they are the people who deserve assistance and empathy.

DARK-KNIGHT

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

And that is everyone else's problem because?

Why should I pay for that? Why should anyone else pay for that? Why should I bother my ass holding on to my job, fulfilling my obligations when Sean and Mary with 2 cars in the drive way down the road get my money for their mortgage on a house that was always beyond their means?


I tell you now if anything like this is brought in it will leave water charges in the hapenny place compared to the sheer anger and sense of theft and injustice it will raise in people.

I'm not paying some else's mortgage while i'm breaking my bollix paying my own.

I lold at the why should i bother holding onto my job fulfilling my obligations part of this.. yes cos people got mortgages to do exactly what you are saying giving up work and trying to live off you...

you do realise you are actually lucky to have a job capable of paying your way.. hard times might hit you at some stage just remember your terrible attitude if or when it does.......

DARK-KNIGHT

jon1981 wrote: »

Where would the 30+ thousand families downsize to? There's f**k all to rent at the moment.

thats the biggest problem of all banks repossess where are people going to rent..