New Legislation? Tachographs for Vans?

gctest50

JBokeh wrote: »

Hows this going to work for the postman or anyone else making deliveries? They're hard pushed enough to make all the deliveries with the time they do have, never mind if they'd to be stopping for breaks

isn't that the whole point of it though ?

jca

R.O.R wrote: »

If this does come in to force, who's going to pay for these Tachographs to be fitted, and who's going to compensate for the loss of productive time?

It's not going to be feasible to retro fit Tacho's to all commercial vehicles. All new commercial vehicles from xx day of xx month of xx year would work, but taking all commercials off the road to have a Tacho fitted would be a logistical nightmare.

The owner will have to pay. When all buses had to be fitted with tacho's the owners had to foot the bill. The NTA didn't give two damn's about the loss of production time..

Volvoair

one little thing lads, ye seem to have missed....the tacho keeps record of your SPEED....and any time the cops/rsa can pull you over,they can get a printout (without your permission) of your speed for the previous few weeks,and you CAN be fined/points for speeding offenses committed several weeks ago...just thought you should know.....

jca

Volvoair wrote: »

one little thing lads, ye seem to have missed....the tacho keeps record of your SPEED....and any time the cops/rsa can pull you over,they can get a printout (without your permission) of your speed for the previous few weeks,and you CAN be fined/points for speeding offenses committed several weeks ago...just thought you should know.....

They can only do you for exceeding your maximum permitted speed, shouldn't be a problem if the speed limiter is ok.

gavman1

Another thing to think about is If/when its brought in, the insurance companies wont cover ye till your compliant.

whupdedo

I Can't see the ifa standing for this, it has too much clout in government to let the farmers get into something like this

challengemaster

Infracted wrote: »

Really? You actually think this? A mandatory court appearance for taking a drink of water. You really are stretching your law credentials if anything. You gave me a good chuckle if anything because I know you made it up.

Search boards, plenty of posts about it happening.

Going Forward

whupdedo wrote: »

I Can't see the ifa standing for this, it has too much clout in government to let the farmers get into something like this

You're right, agricultural vehicles will no doubt end up being exempt.

osheen

This has as much to do with working time regulations and maximum working time as driving time . At the moment many companies are running vans under 3.5t gvw to avoid both driving time and working time regulation .

bren11

Always thought as explained at cpc's that the tachograph was used in vehicles that were for hire and reward, ie trucks and vans over 7.5 tonne used for haulage, and are listed on the haulage licence, and not vehicles used to move tools from one site to another, including contractors moving their own diggers etc.
The driver can still use the tachograph in these exempt vehicles where fitted to record his hours etc,

Streetwalker

Did a module today for the C licence and the instructor told the room that he heard from a reliable source in the RSA Ireland will be bringing in tachos for small commercials under 3.5ton in line with new EU guidelines within the next 18 months or so. Also informed us the RSA is presently looking at the possibility of tachos being fitted in taxis in the near future. Always thought it's a joke taxi drivers got away with it as we all well know they can drive up to 90hours a week if they want whilst professional truck and bus drivers can only do 90max in a two week spell. Going to be a nightmare for couriers and other operators with small vans.

Streetwalker

Streetwalker wrote: »

Did a module today for the C licence and the instructor told the room that he heard from a reliable source in the RSA Ireland will be bringing in tachos for small commercials under 3.5ton in line with new EU guidelines within the next 18 months or so. Also informed us the RSA is presently looking at the possibility of tachos being fitted in taxis in the near future. Always thought it's a joke taxi drivers got away with it as we all well know they can drive up to 90hours a week if they want whilst professional truck and bus drivers can only do 90max in a two week spell. Going to be a nightmare for couriers and other operators with small vans.

I know of a security company that have a van on the road to check alarms at premises. The lads to be under fair pressure, but if this came in, I reckon it'd fold the company. I don't the cash is there to put another van on the road for same workload.

I also know a courier who would be under fierce financial pressure. I predict he'd just get another van (not that he'd need it in general, but if this came in, I presume he'd just have two vans and hop from one van to the other, day on, day off, to keep his head above water).


I'm not seeing clearly who this is supposed to benefit (except revenue)? Statistically speaking, how many crashes are caused by light commercials, I wonder.

Uncle Ben

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I know of a security company that have a van on the road to check alarms at premises. The lads to be under fair pressure, but if this came in, I reckon it'd fold the company. I don't the cash is there to put another van on the road for same workload.

I also know a courier who would be under fierce financial pressure. I predict he'd just get another van (not that he'd need it in general, but if this came in, I presume he'd just have two vans and hop from one van to the other, day on, day off, to keep his head above water).


I'm not seeing clearly who this is supposed to benefit (except revenue)? Statistically speaking, how many crashes are caused by light commercials, I wonder.

What would happen to the likes of post men, ESB vans, eircom etc?

kay 9

Uncle Ben wrote: »

What would happen to the likes of post men, ESB vans, eircom etc?

The postmen around here finish at 1 or 2pm. Esb and eircom aren't exactly flat out either.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

CiniO

Deleted User wrote: »

I know of a security company that have a van on the road to check alarms at premises. The lads to be under fair pressure, but if this came in, I reckon it'd fold the company. I don't the cash is there to put another van on the road for same workload.

I also know a courier who would be under fierce financial pressure. I predict he'd just get another van (not that he'd need it in general, but if this came in, I presume he'd just have two vans and hop from one van to the other, day on, day off, to keep his head above water).

I don't think you understand how tachographs work.
Vehicle can be used 24/7 no problem.
It's the driver whose hours are limited.
Buying another vehicle won't help.
Employing another driver - will.

I'm not seeing clearly who this is supposed to benefit (except revenue)? Statistically speaking, how many crashes are caused by light commercials, I wonder.

There's plenty cowboy hauliers using 3.5 tonne vans instead of trucks on longhaul cross continent haulage, and drivers driving for 20 hours a day.
This is crazy and should stop, and introducing tachographs for light commercialls should help.
If that's the EU wide initiative I'm definitely for it.

CiniO

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Any business that requires person to drive for more than 10 hours a day withing 16 hours shift or without a breaks should be killed, don't you think?

dashcamdanny

I would tend to agree with you .

Driving employees into potential serious Health and safety hazards is no way to run a business .

uck51js9zml2yt

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I know of a security company that have a van on the road to check alarms at premises. The lads to be under fair pressure, but if this came in, I reckon it'd fold the company. I don't the cash is there to put another van on the road for same workload.

I also know a courier who would be under fierce financial pressure. I predict he'd just get another van (not that he'd need it in general, but if this came in, I presume he'd just have two vans and hop from one van to the other, day on, day off, to keep his head above water).


I'm not seeing clearly who this is supposed to benefit (except revenue)? Statistically speaking, how many crashes are caused by light commercials, I wonder.

Swapping vans won't work. The drivers card records hours for the driver not the vehicle.

Total and utter nonsense and will never happen. Small commercials are used like cars a lot of the time not like trucks. Tachos would just be a total mess for say a farmer or tradesman.

Next people will want them in tractors which would be a total and absolute disaster as you can't limited a farmer to 10 hours driving a day during busy periods it would ruin farming.

Going Forward

Uncle Ben wrote: »

What would happen to the likes of post men, ESB vans, eircom etc?

Isn't the 50k limit in place, so local use without tachograph is permitted?

Jordan Rough Cursor

Jordan Rough Cursor wrote: »

Swapping vans won't work. The drivers card records hours for the driver not the vehicle.

But how would you be expected to know who's driving what, and when?

uck51js9zml2yt

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But how would you be expected to know who's driving what, and when?

All details of houra, speed, breaks etc are kept on the cards with the initial driver/vehicle details inputted into the tacho on getting into the vehicle.

The cards are then downloaded to a reader by the transport manager. The Guards can also read details stored on the cards

CiniO

Deleted User wrote: »

But how would you be expected to know who's driving what, and when?

Becasue that's exactly what tachograph records.
It records who is driving, what and when. And also how fast.

uck51js9zml2yt

CiniO wrote: »

Becasue that's exactly what tachograph records.
It records who is driving, what and when. And also how fast.

Said that 30 minutes earlier :)

Jordan Rough Cursor

Jordan Rough Cursor wrote: »

All details of houra, speed, breaks etc are kept on the cards with the initial driver/vehicle details inputted into the tacho on getting into the vehicle.

The cards are then downloaded to a reader by the transport manager. The Guards can also read details stored on the cards

Sorry, I probably phrased it wrong.

What I mean is: You're a courier, and you pick up a second van. What's to stop you from throwing me €20 each week, and using a Tachograph with my info on it (thus if its checked, I drove 20 hours this week, and you drove 20 hours this week. But in reality, I was nowhere near your vans and you drove 40 hours by yourself)?

CiniO

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry, I probably phrased it wrong.

What I mean is: You're a courier, and you pick up a second van. What's to stop you from throwing me €20 each week, and using a Tachograph with my info on it (thus if its checked, I drove 20 hours this week, and you drove 20 hours this week. But in reality, I was nowhere near your vans and you drove 40 hours by yourself)?

So you are saying to use tachgraph card of your colegue who is actually not working as a driver and therefore not using it? Right?

If you are stopped and caught using someone elses tachograph card, you are in big trouble. That's a fraud.

Also still don't really understand what second van is for?

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

So you are saying to use tachgraph card of your colegue who is actually not working as a driver and therefore not using it? Right?

If you are stopped and caught using someone elses tachograph card, you are in big trouble. That's a fraud.

Also still don't really understand what second van is for?

Well second van doesn't really need to be there I was just using it to create a fictional situation.


I'm well aware it's fraud (well, a motoring offence, wouldn't say fraud). But that's what I'm saying - It's an easy workaround, no?

uck51js9zml2yt

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well second van doesn't really need to be there I was just using it to create a fictional situation.


I'm well aware it's fraud (well, a motoring offence, wouldn't say fraud). But that's what I'm saying - It's an easy workaround, no?

Penalty for a driver is €5000 and 6 months jail time.

CiniO

Deleted User wrote: »

Well second van doesn't really need to be there I was just using it to create a fictional situation.


I'm well aware it's fraud (well, a motoring offence, wouldn't say fraud). But that's what I'm saying - It's an easy workaround, no?

It it was easy, truck drivers would be doing it at all times.
And I don't think they do.
Driving with someone elses tachograph card is one of the most stupid things that can be done.
There are ways you can possibly cheat on tachograph, but that's definitely not the way. It's not that easy.

osheen

Huge fines loss of licence and possible jail time all for a first offence ! Drivers are caught and prosecuted on a regular basis for these things .
In many European countries you will be in serious trouble just having someone elses card in your truck if they are not present .

Mycroft H

Such a load of bollocks. Sure what happens when the tradesman wants to go get milk in the shop but he cannot because he's over his tacho hours for the week.

Never happen and if it did there would be war from the IFA/ISME and any other small business lobby group.

edburg

Is a tradesman likely to be driving 8 hours a day. Tacho will be in other work or break for vast majority of the day.

The only people realistically effected will be couriers, who until more recent times would be driving 9-10+ hours a day regularly.

Uncle Ben

Mycroft H wrote: »

Such a load of bollocks. Sure what happens when the tradesman wants to go get milk in the shop but he cannot because he's over his tacho hours for the week.

Never happen and if it did there would be war from the IFA/ISME and any other small business lobby group.

Guaranteed there will be an opt out for the farmers. There was supposed to be a EU version of the DOE / NCT for agricultural plant machinery and vehicles and guess what, the Irish farmers got an exemption. Road safety legislation doesn't apply to the farming community.

Mycroft H

edburg wrote: »

Is a tradesman likely to be driving 8 hours a day. Tacho will be in other work or break for vast majority of the day.

The only people realistically effected will be couriers, who until more recent times would be driving 9-10+ hours a day regularly.

They'res still going to be plenty of examples where it would get in the way.
It'll cost votes in the end, so don't worry, it will never happen.

cormie

Definitely against this. 10 hours driving in one day is easy. 20 hours is a different story but requiring every little commercial vehicle to fit a tacho for the tiny % who would be doing such hours is crazy.

How much would it cost to retro fit a tacho I wonder?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Jordan Rough Cursor

Jordan Rough Cursor wrote: »

Penalty for a driver is €5000 and 6 months jail time.

How is there a penalty for a law that hasn't been introduced?

CiniO wrote: »

It it was easy, truck drivers would be doing it at all times.
And I don't think they do.
Driving with someone elses tachograph card is one of the most stupid things that can be done.
There are ways you can possibly cheat on tachograph, but that's definitely not the way. It's not that easy.

Truck drivers are entirely different, though, in fairness. Their line of work is almost built around a tachograph and no one would risk it in their line of work as they put a lot of money into getting a specific license that allows them to drive a lorry in the first place (between the license itself, health checks, etc.)

Besides, it wouldn't be in a truck driver's interest as they would be generally hired to drive a particular vehicle (either their own or someone else's) for a particular route/collection/delivery.

I know a few drivers and the impression I get is they're either working for themselves taking on whatever comes their way, or they're with a company doing the same runs over and over. Either way they're given an assigned role/route and drive the same truck over and over.


Anyone with a regular car license can hop in a van, though, and go anywhere at any time. I don't think it would benefit a truck driver to cheat a tacho too much, whereas it would if you were a courier.

(that said, was there not a story in the news a couple of weeks back about truck drivers wanting the laws on tachos to be more relaxed as they're being forced to park up in bad areas and are being assaulted, etc? As far as I recall it was supposed to be getting looked into (by who, I don't know)).

edburg

Electronic chip card with drivers info on it, driving info used to downloaded and then supposed to be emailed to who reviews the tacho system in Ireland.

System was very new when I last drove truck over here, so probably changed now.

edburg

Deleted User wrote: »

How is there a penalty for a law that hasn't been introduced?

Most likely referring to the current system for truck drivers.

CiniO

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No, each driver has a photo ID chip card, which needs to be insterted into the device when driving.

Chemical Byrne

Ye say it's for all commercially taxed vehicle. What about a company car that's used for business travel? Would that be commercially taxed? Surely to god this couldn't apply!

Also, we have a kangoo van at home but it's not used as part of any business anymore. It does DOE but is taxed as a private vehicle. Would that require a tacho?

Surely the trades guilds and other representative bodies will kick up a storm over this and right they'd be. This is an outrageous proposal!

Grimreaper666 wrote: »

You're not supposed to eat or drink while driving and also using a radio or any other controls are to be outlawed soon too.

So, is it going to be illegal to use the steering wheel, gears and breaks then?

Some are already taking precautions and are refraining from using their indicators, just in case.

Going Forward

cormie wrote: »

Definitely against this. 10 hours driving in one day is easy. 20 hours is a different story but requiring every little commercial vehicle to fit a tacho for the tiny % who would be doing such hours is crazy.

How much would it cost to retro fit a tacho I wonder?

Not much change from a grand including having it calibrated.

uck51js9zml2yt

Patww79 wrote: »

How does it know the driver? Does the box have a retina scanner or something?

Also, are the government going to foot the bill for fitting these?

Driver has his details on his card and i inputs them into tacho.
The firm foots the bill.

I had a machine to download driving information to my PC which had the software.

Going Forward

CiniO wrote: »

Becasue that's exactly what tachograph records.
It records who is driving, what and when. And also how fast.

And where the vehicle is.
Next generation tachos are also expected to have GPS.

dotcomedy

I am a grocery delivery driver for a major retailer, our normal daily shift is 9 hours driving and 1 hour lunch. If the sh1t hits the fan as it often does, we drive for over 10 hours a day.

I hope this come in. It will stop companies such as the one I work for giving us massive long hours behind the wheel They would have to break the week up a bit better to maintain our contracted hours.

uck51js9zml2yt

Your not 10_hours at the wheel. You switch to working when loading or doing deliveries and then a break/ rest period which is mandatory.

The working time directive does apply at 48 hours per week.

gavman1

its important to evaluate all the different laws involved if this was to come to pass which im sure it will.the driver will only have to prove there driving hours were driving is there primary objective i.e they are in the transport buisness or the haulage buisness.we are not talking about a plumber or a bricky.if you drive for a living you will be subject to the same laws and penalties as a lorry or bus driver.has anyone noticed how big vans have gotten on irish roads in recent years?guess why.they can take nearly as much cargo as a lorry but the drivers dont need to take rest breaks or sleep or eat {well not untill they kill themselves or someone else}.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Some oeople here don't actually seem to know what a thacograph card is.

Its the same size as the new card driving licence. It has the following

Your full name
Your date of birth
Your department of issue (rsa in our case)
Your driver number from your driver licence
And finally a picture of you.

The card records information from the machine in the vehicle such as time, speed and hours driving, worked and rested.

There won't be a work around or anyway of borrowing someone else's card etc.

I think it's a good idea in general. The plumbers etc won't have anything to hide since in their line of work would have a tough time driving 9 hours a day if they are doing actual plumbing.

It would be nice for the likes of courier companies who hire self employed people (contractors) to do their work for them in vans driving constantly.

But i definitely want to see it in taxis too. There are a few i know who truck drive full time and drive the taxi in other times.

But they would have to lose some exemptions. Like for example i have a tacho card but haven't used it in over a year even though im a full time bus driver. Because they use the 50km radius exemption. Or the scheduled service exemption meaning we don't use tachos and the info is not recorded.

This means i can work 5 days a week without the card and have no info recorded but my two days off could be driving coaches the length of the country privately on the card (which shouldn't be able to get away with)

The farmer tractor would need to be exempt though. If your using the tractor on the farm all day to harvest your driving constantly at 4kph but only on farm land, not a public place